Sarcastic Tweet Gets Similar Response Shock

[Hyphen]

When I caught trains in Wales though I just became familiar with the Welsh announcements so I knew what was being said before the English came out. The only one you needed to make a move for was when it said 'Dyma newid platfform"!

This.

I'm an Englishman by birth, now living and working in Wales. I came to Swansea to study, and found I loved the place so much I didn't want to leave (which I've mostly succeeded in doing, bar a year and a half in Sheffield).

Personally, I'm not bothered enough to want to wade into the Welsh language debate, and don't feel I'm qualified enough to express opinions either way. I don't mind the Welsh being on signs or played at train stations - once you've been here long enough you can quite easily pick out the information you need to. For me, I certainly don't feel it gets in the way, and I've no reason to begrudge those who want to see their language thrive.

Like you, I only really know enough Welsh to understand what 'platform alteration' means, and I only know numbers up to 7, because there aren't any Welsh stations with higher numbered platforms! Puts me a few seconds ahead of most people, enough time to make sure I grab a seat

Really, the only thing which throws me (and only ever for a few moments) is places like Carmarthen where Welsh on signs comes before English, and I get confused for a minute because my brain wants to block out the second line, and I suddenly find I can't understand things

 

[TDK]

What has that got to do with it?
The use of our language is required in many areas, and ATW manage to use it elsewhere.
However I do think that Carwyn could have thought first before he tweeted that.
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How abusive!
Welsh is spoken over the whole country. In fact the Valley's have quite a high proportion of Welsh speakers.

Some of the english replies on this forum are showing their prejudice!

If that is the case why didn't the AM first minister post his twiiter tweet in welsh. Sorry but he is a knob

 

[Llanigraham]

If that is the case why didn't the AM first minister post his twiiter tweet in welsh. Sorry but he is a knob

You are entitled to your opinion, and me, mine, but I don't see a need to push it at every opportunity on this forum.

 

[Greenback]

My perspective, as a far from fluent Welsh speaker, is that the FM got the response he deserved due to the way he phrased the question. There was no need for an apology from ATW, one of the things about Twitter is that it is still regarded as a very informal method of communication, necessarily so because of the character limitation, and his remark about the border being moved almost demanded a similar reply in that medium.

Of course, he should have Tweeted in welsh too, if he was trying to make a serious point. Unfortunately for him, as far as I'm concerned he has just made himself look silly with this whole episode. He has probably brought the country more negative coverage in the media than the Minister he sacked a short time ago.

Yorkie said earlier in the thread that it is all political and he's right. There is no one in Wales who wouldn't speak enough English so they would not understand the English only announcements. But it is not just about communication, as has also been mentioned. It is a lot to do with national identity, and trying to protect a language that was considered backward during the nineteenth century when strenuous efforts were made to prevent it being used. I support these efforts, wherever practicable.

 

[tivoli]

When urgent bi-lingual announcements are made; such as change of platform, are they made in Welsh first, then English? Welsh speakers would have an advantage in making the move.

 

[Greenback]

At Swansea, urgent platform alterations are usually made manually, and only in English in my experience.

 

[starrymarkb]

Maybe it's time to review the length of the announcements. Especially where services are all stations. Having route numbers with fixed stopping patterns would help

12:30 V3 to Merthr Tydwell calling at all stations to Merthr Tydwell will depart from Platform 1 - 12:30 V3 i Merthr Tydwell yn galw ym mhob gorsaf i Merthr Tydwell wyro oddi wrth Platfform 1


DISCLAIMER - Welsh and Route number for illustration only - apologies to any welsh speakers for Google's translation - Language order optional - your home is at risk if you do not keep up Mortgage payments!

 

[Shimbleshanks]

The other evening, I found myself at Wrexham General, waiting for the last Borderline service of the day to Bidston and on to Liverpool. I'd just had a cycling accident and had struggled, in a lot of pain, with the remains of my bike from the further outskirts of the town to the station, and wasn't in the best shape, to say the least.

Then on top of it all, I have to suffer this CACOPHONY of noise BELLOWING from the station PA. A train going in the other direction, security announcements reminding us to keep our belongings with us at all times (I'd never realised Wrexham was a major Al Qaida target, or maybe it's the Free Wales Army they're worried about), probably more health & safety announcements and then the announcements for the train I was intending to catch.

I'm not a fan of unnecessary announcements at the best of times, and with everything in two languages, it went on for twice as long. I do understand a bit of Welsh myself, which somehow seemed to make it even worse.

If they really must relay all this stuff to us, can't they at least do it QUIETLY in consideration for those of us who are feeling out of sorts?

 

[TDK]

You are entitled to your opinion, and me, mine, but I don't see a need to push it at every opportunity on this forum.

Push what? Sorry but I think the money spent on dual signage and all the paper wasted sending MOT certificates, Poll tax demands and what like in Welsh and English is a complete waste of taxpayers money that could be spent on learning a language like Spanish or French that is spoken in many countries of the World and not just one. Being Welsh and being proud of it is one thing but whining about a Welsh station not announcing the station stops in Welsh is a pathetic attempt to try and gain votes. Does this AM actually speak fluent Welsh? Do you as a Welshman even know?

 

[IanD]

Does this AM actually speak fluent Welsh? Do you as a Welshman even know?

He does. I as an Englishman know that.

I'm not against announcements in the mother tongue of the country they are being made in. However, I am against pompous polititicians trying to make cheap politcal gain.

(I agree that dual language forms are a waste, maybe on the Council Tax register or mot form they could have a box to tick to say whether you need the Welsh one).

 

[Llanigraham]

Push what? Sorry but I think the money spent on dual signage and all the paper wasted sending MOT certificates, Poll tax demands and what like in Welsh and English is a complete waste of taxpayers money that could be spent on learning a language like Spanish or French that is spoken in many countries of the World and not just one. Being Welsh and being proud of it is one thing but whining about a Welsh station not announcing the station stops in Welsh is a pathetic attempt to try and gain votes. Does this AM actually speak fluent Welsh? Do you as a Welshman even know?

My comment was to this part of your posting:

If that is the case why didn't the AM first minister post his twiiter tweet in welsh. Sorry but he is a knob

You know and I know that he speaks Welsh, but as usual you have to get in a little "dig"!

 

[whhistle]

But he didn't ask the question in Welsh?
Surely the answer is in the paradox of the question?

 

[splashoutradio]

As an Englishman who wanted to learn another language, Welsh seemed like the logical choice. An hour and I'm in Wales, two hours and I'm in "Y Fro Cymraeg" (the Welsh Language Heartlands) and all without passports or border security. (yet )

From my experience, Welsh is spoken all over the country by a good number of people. The percentage of speakers is higher in some areas than others, but even in the areas that you don't tend to hear it as much, Welsh speakers quite often just speak English because they don't know if the person they are addressing is a Welsh speaker.

That said, it would be a ridiculous state of affairs if ATW refused to employ anyone who wasn't fluent in Welsh, and if an announcer on a station doesn't speak the language, it's not the end of the world, certainly not a reason for a sarcastic tweet from senior members of government.

 

[Greenback]

Despite what statistics may or may not say, most people who were born in Wales do know enough of the language to understand and speak quite a number of words and phrases and speak up to at least ten. This is equivalent to, or better than, the majority of British holidaymakers knowledge of the native languages when they head off to Spain, Portugal, Turkey or Greece for their holidays.

The familiarity with the language is one that some natives don't even realise until push comes to shove, and the bilingual requirement of road signs and official documentation contributes to this.

 

[Wolfie]

I'm not quite sure of what the initiatives are supposed to be.

Unfortunately a few too many deluded people have found a position they can make lots of noise from.
Cornwall council are spending money left right and centre on this Cornish language rubbish, yet cutting costs on important front line services.

What you said was "As a proud Cornishman I don't see any point, I know zero people who speak or understand English." I believe you meant the last word to be Cornish NOT English given your other comments......

 

[Peter Sarf]

On my visits to Wales I find the dual language signs confusing. It takes me more than twice as long as it should to scan the words and work out what is relevant to me (confusingly every other line). When driving that results in quite a few missed turns. My view is that if all the people in Wales speak English then signs in English should suffice. Signs are for information not a celebration of one or other language/culture.

I do think the Welsh language is a nice and poetic thing - being a non speaker I fear that probably sounds patronising. The English language is only a mix of other languages anyway but is what was arrived at towards the Western end of Europe and seems to have become rather popular internationally.

On my travels in S.E Asia I see railways where a lot of signs use English - the national language uses a completely different alphabet (all squiggles to me) but not much sign of it used on signs in a country where I would have expected English to be a minority language !.

Actually in Cardiff when I mention the road signs many people think the Welsh on them is pointless. I thought but surely some of them speak/read Welsh ?. But then if they do speak Welsh they are still as confused as me perhaps, possibly even more confused. This led me to the idea that, for signs, there should be two separate signs one in Welsh and one in English. To make it easier they could each have a faintly coloured background. This would make the signs more use for people choosing to read one or other language not both at the same time - which must be the case even for the bi-lingual people. Of course this offers no solution regarding audible announcements.

Talking of terrorist threat announcements. We were in Scotland last week and at Whiiflet and Coatbridge Central we got no security announcements BUT we got tired of the repeated warnings basically that drunks would be thrown off the network (no not from a high viaduct - I think).

 

[PHILIPE]

When urgent bi-lingual announcements are made; such as change of platform, are they made in Welsh first, then English? Welsh speakers would have an advantage in making the move.

Before the re-modelling (awful) of Newport Station in 2010, the Welsh announcements came first. and very often a train to the West was diverted to Platform1. The change announcement was not triggered until the train was actually running in and people have been known to have missed it by the time the English announcement came. At the time, ATW didn't seem to want to know anything about reversing the order. Since 2010, Saesneg comes first.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

What has that got to do with it?
The use of our language is required in many areas, and ATW manage to use it elsewhere.
However I do think that Carwyn could have thought first before he tweeted that.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


How abusive!
Welsh is spoken over the whole country. In fact the Valley's have quite a high proportion of Welsh speakers.

Some of the english replies on this forum are showing their prejudice!

I have NEVER heard anybody speaking Welsh in our Valley apart from within our groups of Welsh Speakers. I have to go to events, Coffee Mornings for example, organised by Welsh Language groups to have the opportunity to speak it. If not, I would have to talk out loud to myself to hear it !!!

 

[Llanigraham]

Funny, but every time I took the grandchildren to Castell Caerfili I heard Welsh spoken!

And you have dropped into the same trap that lots of others have fallen into; the "I didn't" faction. Just because it isn't heard in your group doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I could say the same thing some days here in Llani, but then on another day I may hear a dozen people speaking it. It is very easy to make a presumption.

 

[Greenback]

Llanelli, and the whole county of Carmarthenshire, is a place where you will frequently hear Welsh spoken in the street, in the shops, hospitals, and, yes, at the railway station. I have very rarely heard it spoken in the capital, but it does happen.

 

[6Gman]

Push what? Sorry but I think the money spent on dual signage and all the paper wasted sending MOT certificates, Poll tax demands and what like in Welsh and English is a complete waste of taxpayers money that could be spent on learning a language like Spanish or French that is spoken in many countries of the World and not just one. Being Welsh and being proud of it is one thing but whining about a Welsh station not announcing the station stops in Welsh is a pathetic attempt to try and gain votes. Does this AM actually speak fluent Welsh? Do you as a Welshman even know?

You re still getting Poll Tax demands !?! Time to pay up mate ...

 

[PHILIPE]

Funny, but every time I took the grandchildren to Castell Caerfili I heard Welsh spoken!

And you have dropped into the same trap that lots of others have fallen into; the "I didn't" faction. Just because it isn't heard in your group doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. I could say the same thing some days here in Llani, but then on another day I may hear a dozen people speaking it. It is very easy to make a presumption.

Perhaps NEVER was a little over the top for which I apologise, but it is not heard with any regularity on the street. Now, I recall, I have heard it spoken but I could probably count the occasions on one hand. There are no doubt people out there who can speak it but never use it. That is why I have to meet with Welsh speaking groups to have the opportunity to "Use it and not lose it".
I recall a resident of Nelson (Rhymney Valley) saying at census time in 2001, "Nobody in Nelson speaks Welsh".. The census revealed a total of 490 !!!
I'm not challenging the figures but could be a similar situation in other places, but people just don't use it.

Dw I mynd i bostio yma yn Saesneg a Chymraeg yn y dyfodol

I am going to post here in English and Welsh in future.

Cymraeg neu Saesneg yn gyntaf ?

 

[6Gman]

It's a shame that any thread which touches on the subject of the Welsh language, however tangentally, quickly deteriorates into a row between "they can all speak English anyway etc" v "oppressed history etc".

On the specific it was stupid of Carwyn Jones not to be aware of the background to the use of English-only announcements at Queen Street.

On the more general point, I think people from outside Wales (and many within !) fail to realise that for a significant number of people Welsh is a first language - they don't use it just to annoy the English - it is genuinely what they are most comfortable with. And surely they have a right to use it/ and have it used with them in their own country?

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Push what? Sorry but I think the money spent on dual signage and all the paper wasted sending MOT certificates, Poll tax demands and what like in Welsh and English is a complete waste of taxpayers money

To be fair, the marginal cost of including an extra piece of paper with the text in Welsh is probably a fairly small fraction of the cost of posting the whatever-it-is.

 

[Flamingo]

Has anybody heard the Cardiff bin-lorrys? The automatic warning says "Danger Reversing" in English and Welsh (I presume)!

 

[muz379]

Looks to me like a blatant attempt at trying to gain voters support , Personally I dont think ATW had anything to apologize about and should have invited him to send them his address so they could send him a full written explanation as to the reason the announcements are only made in English .

As for the issue of 2 languages , all the times ive been in wales its never really bothered me seeing road signs in two languages , nor has the announcements at train stations being in two languages bothered me .The only thing that was a mild annoyance was the information screens showing everything in welsh then English as it can take some time for them to scroll round ,ideally one screen showing welsh and one English would be a good idea but I will live . But when it is not practicable due to time constraints to make the announcements in two languages you have to choose the language which the majority of people will understand and that based on figures people have posted here appears to be English . That reading the announcements in English is not an anti welsh plot or oppressive English rule it is just common sense

 

[Llanigraham]

I am going to post here in English and Welsh in future.

Cymraeg neu Saesneg yn cyntaf ?

Saesneg yn ôl pob tebyg yn haws!
English is probably easier!

 

[PHILIPE]

Saesneg yn ôl pob tebyg yn haws!
English is probably easier!

Cytuno.
Agree

 

[richw]

What you said was "As a proud Cornishman I don't see any point, I know zero people who speak or understand English." I believe you meant the last word to be Cornish NOT English given your other comments......

Oops

 

[joke2711]

On the other side of the coin, I travelled on an ATW service starting at Chester and ending at Crewe and inside the train all the posters were in Welsh only.

How does that one work??

 

[daikilo]

Well, where I am at present, station names on the inside the metro cars are annouced in French and in Occitane. I am sure that nigh everyone on the the metro understands the French name, but it is a bold statement to say, we may be French but we are also Occitan.

The one that amuses me is "canal de miejour" as a translation for "canal du midi". Since when has the "midi" (of the country) been linked to "midday".

Whilst I am only remotely welsh, I strongly support local languages and dialects, not to further communication between peoples, but to further bonding.

And as for those who have not heard welsh spoken, try going to a rugby match or club in rural Wales (I would have said the Cardiff Valleys but things are evolving). It is a beautiful lamguage.

That said, I like the bit about him not tweeting in Welsh. Possibly the worst "faux pas" any minister could make (I dare to suggest he probably thought about communcating before the need to make his point).