Ukraine-Where will it end?

[Johnuk123]

Bob was right about the mythical weapons of mass destruction that Blair reckoned could be used in 45 mins.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Bob was right about the mythical weapons of mass destruction that Blair reckoned could be used in 45 mins.

How long would have it taken to make ready the American and British weapons of mass destruction, which were somewhat less mythical at that point of time ?

 

[ainsworth74]

For US nuclear forces the time would be however long it takes for a launch order from the US President to be transmitted to launch facilities and acted upon. But I would figure inside of ten minutes for ICBMs to start flying and a similar amount of time for the SLBMs from nuclear submarines. After that it depends on what the target is and its distance from the launcher but figure between 20 and 30 minutes flight time for ICBMs and less for the SLBMs as they are likely to be closer.

For ours? Well as far as I'm aware we've de-targeted our missiles so they're no longer on a hair trigger so the time to act would depend on how long it would take to re-target the missiles and their warheads. But if they were already targeted when the decision to launch was made then it would be a similar amount of time as for the US.

This of course being why our nuclear missile submarine commanders are the only men in such positions who can launch on their own authority without a direct order from the Prime Minister (or designated successor). This due to the concern during the Cold War that as we were only around four minutes flight time from Soviet missile facilities the Prime Minster would likely be killed before they would get chance to order a strike.

It remains one of the first duties of an incoming Prime Minister to write four 'letter's of last resort' which layout what a submarine commander should do in the event that the UK is attacked by nuclear weapons.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The Ukrainian governmental forces are moving slowly into the area of the separatists today.

 

[Johnuk123]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ercises-to-reassure-allies-against-Putin.html

Britain will send an armoured battle group of tanks and 1,350 troops to Poland for Nato war games designed to sure up the alliance’s eastern members against fears of Russian aggression.
The deployment will see British troops backed by Challenger tanks and Warrior armoured fighting vehicles join other Nato forces for a two-month exercise in eastern Europe. Military sources said the British detachment was likely to be made up of the Kings Royal Hussars and would include around 20 Challenger tanks.

Bit of European sabre rattling which I'm sure will terrify Putin.

With all the military cuts recently and as we have more horses than tanks having only 200 odd in existence and a lot of them unserviceable 20 will be about our limit.
Saying all that tanks will be a memory soon as they're being replaced by more modern items of military equipment.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...eed-putting-City-of-London-in-front-line.html

The City of London will be in the front-line of economic sanctions against Russia after the European Union pulled back from measures that would hit a French defence deal or harm Germany's engineering exports

 

[kylemore]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukn...ercises-to-reassure-allies-against-Putin.html




Bit of European sabre rattling which I'm sure will terrify Putin.

With all the military cuts recently and as we have more horses than tanks having only 200 odd in existence and a lot of them unserviceable 20 will be about our limit.
Saying all that tanks will be a memory soon as they're being replaced by more modern items of military equipment.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...eed-putting-City-of-London-in-front-line.html

The British Army's come to this - More Horses than Tanks!
Again.

We're Poland in 1939!
(Well actually thats a myth, the Polish Army in 1939 had many well equiped Motorised and Armoured formations - just, for the most part, badly managed -where they were well managed thay gave the Wehrmacht a run for it's money. Remember the military Junta in charge of Poland in 1939 probably spent more of the countries budget on "Militerism" than even the Soviet Union far less Nazi Germany!)

Why don't they send the Household Cavalry to Poland in full dress array - at least they would put on a good show!

 

[Johnuk123]

Why don't they send the Household Cavalry to Poland in full dress array - at least they would put on a good show!

Yes they do look quite smart and would certainly create an interesting talking point.

As regards the inadequacy of our military my son who had to leave because of injuries in Afghan reckons we would be hard pushed to sustain any conflict of size for more than a couple of months.

 

[kylemore]

Yes they do look quite smart and would certainly create an interesting talking point.

As regards the inadequacy of our military my son who had to leave because of injuries in Afghan reckons we would be hard pushed to sustain any conflict of size for more than a couple of months.

I hope your son is now fully recovered both in mind and body.

I think what your son has said concerning the UK's military standing is confirmed by the attitude of the US which increasingly appears to have disdain for the UK and prefers other tools - such as France in Africa or Germany in Europe.

 

[Johnuk123]

I hope your son is now fully recovered both in mind and body.

I think what your son has said concerning the UK's military standing is confirmed by the attitude of the US which increasingly appears to have disdain for the UK and prefers other tools - such as France in Africa or Germany in Europe.

My son had a leg and part of an arm removed in Afghan but is now ok in mind and spirit although misses the military. Thanks for your kind words.

What you say about the Americans is very true, they are in despair at our dismantling of the armed services.

In a very short time our army will fall below the Internationally recognised indicator of an army and will be classed as a militia or home defence force how shameful.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

My son had a leg and part of an arm removed in Afghan but is now ok in mind and spirit although misses the military. Thanks for your kind words.

What you say about the Americans is very true, they are in despair at our dismantling of the armed services. In a very short time our army will fall below the Internationally recognised indicator of an army and will be classed as a militia or home defence force how shameful.

My wife and I extend our very best wishes to your son in this terrible occurrence that he has encountered in the early years of his adult life.

There is the usual Governmental obsession of money saving at a cost. Look how all three of the armed forces have been treated by "The Royal Corps of Treasury Accountants"..

 

[Johnuk123]

Thanks Paul I will pass on your good wishes.

 

[fowler9]

Thanks Paul I will pass on your good wishes.

Mate I'm sorry to hear about what your son went through. I spend every day of my current working life speaking to members of the various forces and I don't think people fully appreciate the sacrifices they make.

 

[Johnuk123]

Mate I'm sorry to hear about what your son went through. I spend every day of my current working life speaking to members of the various forces and I don't think people fully appreciate the sacrifices they make.

Thanks, he volunteered to join up, he knew full well the dangers especially in his chosen field. His mother never wanted him to but I backed him and I still think it's a fine profession.

 

[Manchester77]

Cameron won't start WWIII over Ukraine apparently: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...ar-Three-over-Ukraine-David-Cameron-says.html

Britain is not going to start World War Three over Russia’s involvement in Ukraine, David Cameron has said.
The Prime Minister compared Russia’s behaviour in Ukraine to Germany’s before both break out of the First and Second world wars.
Mr Cameron said then that Britain was “not about to launch a European war, we are not about to send the fleet to the Black Sea”.
But Mr Cameron said the West had to draw a line or Russia would start to put similar pressure on European Union countries on the eastern fringes of the Continent like Romania.

Not really sure what to make of it, there's part of me that wants to believe him and hope than the conflict doesn't escalate further. However there's the other part of me which is reminded about the other promises he's made that he's then gone onto break.

 

[ainsworth74]

You honestly think that the UK unilaterally declaring war on Russia is an option? Cameron nor any other Prime Minister is not going to start a war with Russia unless it's part of a wider NATO operation and NATO is not going to declare war on Russia over the Ukraine.

 

[fowler9]

You honestly think that the UK unilaterally declaring war on Russia is an option? Cameron nor any other Prime Minister is not going to start a war with Russia unless it's part of a wider NATO operation and NATO is not going to declare war on Russia over the Ukraine.

Yeah it would be a laugh though. It would be great to see most of the country united standing up and saying "You declared war on Russia, are you f*cking mental". Obviously when I say most of the country I take account of UKIP in the maniac minority thinking we actually could beat Russia in some kind of skirmish.

 

[kylemore]

Yeah it would be a laugh though. It would be great to see most of the country united standing up and saying "You declared war on Russia, are you f*cking mental". Obviously when I say most of the country I take account of UKIP in the maniac minority thinking we actually could beat Russia in some kind of skirmish.

War with Russia? - what with our "Battle Group" of 20 tanks!

The "Ivans" wouldn't be able to fight for laughing!

Not only that but the parlous UK Economy would collapse in a heap in a weekend.

 

[Oswyntail]

.....
Not only that but the parlous UK Economy would collapse in a heap in a weekend.

Probably beaten to it by the Russian economy, though

 

[kylemore]

Probably beaten to it by the Russian economy, though

Quite possibly - however the Russians (through hard earned experience) have learned to put up with a bit of hardship.

Here - where by comparison people have been turned to mush, and where a majority of people would starve to death unless their food came in a box with microwave instructions - there would be anarchy and blood on the streets the minute the Supermarkets closed!

 

[Oswyntail]

.... there would be anarchy and blood on the streets the minute the Supermarkets closed!

I always suspected you were plotting the Revolution

 

[kylemore]

I always suspected you were plotting the Revolution

Curses! Foiled Again!

 

[fowler9]

Working where I do it doesn't seem to take much to bring the UK armed forces to a grinding halt. (And no none of us personally do things to do so, ha ha).

Just wanted to add that I didn't intend that as a slight on the men and women serving. More the bureaucracy.

 

[Johnuk123]

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/06/us-ukraine-crisis-idUSKBN0G61K220140806

Russia will ban all imports of food from the United States and all fruit and vegetables from Europe, the state news agency reported on Wednesday, a sweeping response to Western sanctions imposed over its support for rebels in Ukraine.

Russia has massed around 20,000 combat-ready troops on Ukraine's border and could use the pretext of a humanitarian mission to invade.

I imagine gas and oil may well be next and although that will hit the Russian economy hard it will crucify the German one.

 

[Giugiaro]

Valentin Nalivaichenko, Ukraine’s Security Service Chief,
said pro-Russian rebels wanted to shoot down an Aeroflot flight as part of a false-flag terrorist operation to justify a Russian invasion of Ukraine.

Source: http://www.euronews.com/2014/08/07/ukraine-mh17-probe-says-rebels-shot-down-wrong-plane/

Seriously!? If this is to be truth, how can the Pro-Russians still "allegedly" be backed by Russia? This is an atrocity against any moral sense!

This conflict should have ended long ago!

 

[kylemore]

Ukraine's position on MH017 is unravelling rapidly - hence the reason it's off the "news".
Valentin and his bosses are getting desperate!

 

[ainsworth74]

Care to post some information?

 

[kylemore]

Care to post some information?

Have a look at the New Straits Times, widely acknowledged as Malaysia's "Flagship" English language media outlet and normally in tune with Malaysian establishment thinking and go from there.

In other words the Malaysians think Kiev did it - not reported here mind you.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Have a look at the New Straits Times, widely acknowledged as Malaysia's "Flagship" English language media outlet and normally in tune with Malaysian establishment thinking and go from there. In other words the Malaysians think Kiev did it - not reported here mind you.

Has Malaysia made any official complaint that bears out what you state to the United Nations ?

 

[Squaddie]

Have a look at the New Straits Times, widely acknowledged as Malaysia's "Flagship" English language media outlet and normally in tune with Malaysian establishment thinking and go from there.

In other words the Malaysians think Kiev did it - not reported here mind you.

Although I'm keeping an open mind on the matter, there is absolutely no evidence to indicate that Ukraine shot down MH017: it was almost certainly done by pro-Russian separatists who mistook it for a military transport plane. Kiev had no reason to have surface-to-air missiles in that area, because the rebels don't have aircraft.

There is also nothing in the New Straits Times saying that the Malaysians believe Ukraine did it, so I don't know where you got that from. There is an article in yesterday's edition which quotes the defence minister as saying that the aircraft was definitely shot down by a BUK missile, although he said it was still unclear who fired it.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There is also nothing in the New Straits Times saying that the Malaysians believe Ukraine did it, so I don't know where you got that from. There is an article in yesterday's edition which quotes the defence minister as saying that the aircraft was definitely shot down by a BUK missile, although he said it was still unclear who fired it.

I too found nothing that seemed to be a definite naming in that matter.