Northern to introduce evening peak restrictions

[northwichcat]

jcollins,

The article could have been worded better but it was DfT which wanted to impose car parking charges at station car parks in PTE areas served by Northern and all of the PTEs affected (including TfGM) successfully opposed this.

Alex Hynes in a video statement announcing the Direct Award said the DfT asked them to look at various options to reduce costs and after discussions they chose the evening peak restriction, so presumably they rejected the car parking charges in favour of the evening peak restriction. Of course the PTEs would have wanted neither but that wasn't an option. I'm not sure how many TfGM car parks are free - Hale station car park is not free but Altrincham is but saying that it costs 6 times more to leave your car at Knutsford for the day compared to Hale so the charge at Hale is very low in comparison to non-PTE station car parks which have charges.

 

[maniacmartin]

For me a clearer way of communicating the information to passengers would be if on the timetable and information screens (in stations with them ) the train had either a P or OP on the screen to tell passengers if the train is Peak or Not , That way you could have individual restrictions at every station for every train without having to lay down a complex restriction system

This would be very misleading!

 

[185143]

Indeed, its 10p for the first hour in the car park at Hale

 

[Tetchytyke]

It's always about "value for money" and "the taxpayer" with them isn't it?

Those are the buzzwords, yes.

In reality, the only "value for money" available will be for Dutch taxpayers and shareholders of Serco plc.

If they really wanted "value for money" for "the taxpayer" we wouldn't be having a Direct Award at all, Directly Operated Railways would be taking over.

At the end of the last financial year there were approximately 30 million reasons why Abellio and Serco were the exact opposite of "value for money" for "the taxpayer".

But we can't possibly have the troughing fat cats at Serco plc lose their dividends, so we get inflation-busting fares increases in one of the poorest parts of the country.

 

[Deerfold]

http://www.wymetro.com/news/Changes_to_Evening_Peak_Restrictions_on_Northern_Trains/

Statement from Metro indicates that DayRovers will be restricted.

Though I'm not sure how much I'd trust that statement as it suggests the restrictions will only apply to Northern and TPE services.

With services in West Yorkshire also provided by XC, EMT and GC I suspect there will be quite a few people who assume they'll be able to continue using them within the afternoon peak.

 

[northwichcat]

Though I'm not sure how much I'd trust that statement as it suggests the restrictions will only apply to Northern and TPE services.

With services in West Yorkshire also provided by XC, EMT and GC I suspect there will be quite a few people who assume they'll be able to continue using them within the afternoon peak.

Like Leeds-Wakefield Westgate? Fare set by Metro but travel can be by any of Northern, EC and XC.

 

[Deerfold]

Like Leeds-Wakefield Westgate? Fare set by Metro but travel can be by any of Northern, EC and XC.

And EMT. Yes.

 

[scrapy]

Indeed, its 10p for the first hour in the car park at Hale

The car park next to Hale station is a Trafford council operated public car park that just happens to be next to the station. It is not operated by Northern and not subject to railway byelaws.

 

[Merseysider]

Merseytravel Saveaway one-day rover tickets USED to have an evening restriction some time ago but currently are available to use all day after the morning peak. Including on Northern Rail services in Merseyside as well as Merseyrail services and buses.

Why is the need to restrict evening peak use of a PTE day rover there for Greater Manchester, Yorkshire and Tyneside but not for Merseyside? Or is this going to change?

Merseytravel decided that for a number of reasons, including the influx of tourists and non-residents for the Capital of Culture year, alongside a desire to increase public transport patronage, it would be more passenger-friendly to lift the afternoon peak restriction, despite the fact they could potentially make more money from having one.

 

[IanD]

I don't remember an evening peak on the Strathclyde PTE day tickets. Surely, if the major cities are being brought in-line with London then the DfT should insist it happens there too. Maybe after they've had their independence vote?

But they're not being brought in-line with London as London had no evening peak on travelcards and tfl fares are cheaper if travelling against the flow (ie in to zone 1) at evening peak times. So I'm not sure why a similar policy can't be put in place when travelling from places like Buxton to Manchester.

 

[Rail Ranger]

TfGM have a policy of providing free car parking at rail and Metrolink stations at car parks they control (i.e. not including Stockport for example).

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't remember an evening peak on the Strathclyde PTE day tickets. Surely, if the major cities are being brought in-line with London then the DfT should insist it happens there too

There is no evening peak on TfL off-peak Travelcard tickets either, for that matter.

I wonder if this is what this is really all about: testing the water to force TfL to have an evening peak for Travelcard tickets.

 

[Wolfie]

Perhaps someone could include that question as part of an FOI request?

I wouldn't bother. There is a specific FOI exemption which covers activity/discussion associated with the formulation of policy....

spot part of my day job!

 

[InstantStation]

I have done some rough-and-ready searching to see how late I can legally remain on a train in Greater Manchester with an off-peak ticket (or GM Rail Ranger). So far the latest I have found is 16:53 at Manchester Airport on the Northern train originating from Southport.

You can get on at Wigan Wallgate (15:53) or Hindley (15:58) but Westhoughton (16:02) is a No-No.

Presumably if I carry a GM Rail Ranger ticket and take a selfie of myself boarding at Hindley I am covered (even if the clock strikes 4) as the scheduled departure time is 15:58.

But if I presented the same ticket with photographic evidence I got on at Westhoughton, Bolton or later I would expect to be fined. An odd and somewhat perverse case of being illegal to join a train too far along. But I know these types of case are already not unique.

Not sure if a TICKET departing Hindley but actually boarding one stop later at WHG is also illegal? Of course one can generally board a stop late with impunity at other times of day.

 

[jkdd77]

I have done some rough-and-ready searching to see how late I can legally remain on a train in Greater Manchester with an off-peak ticket (or GM Rail Ranger). So far the latest I have found is 16:53 at Manchester Airport on the Northern train originating from Southport.

You can get on at Wigan Wallgate (15:53) or Hindley (15:58) but Westhoughton (16:02) is a No-No.

Presumably if I carry a GM Rail Ranger ticket and take a selfie of myself boarding at Hindley I am covered (even if the clock strikes 4) as the scheduled departure time is 15:58.

But if I presented the same ticket with photographic evidence I got on at Westhoughton, Bolton or later I would expect to be fined. An odd and somewhat perverse case of being illegal to join a train too far along. But I know these types of case are already not unique.

Not sure if a TICKET departing Hindley but actually boarding one stop later at WHG is also illegal? Of course one can generally board a stop late with impunity at other times of day.

My interpretation is that it depends on the wording of the individual restriction code as to the validity when starting, resuming after a BoJ, or indeed stopping short.

In this specific case, based on the apparent wording of the new restriction code, my view is that, presuming BoJ is indeed permitted, as is the case with all conventional CDRs priced by Northern:
An A-> C CDR departing A at or before 16:00, and departing B at or after 16:01 is not valid to start short at B, due to the time restriction.
An A -> C CDR departing A at or before 18:29, and departing B at or after 18:30 is valid to start short at B, with the same principle applying at the end of the relevant 'morning peak'.

In the former case, the correct course of action would be an excess to the SDR rather than a "fine".

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The car park next to Hale station is a Trafford council operated public car park that just happens to be next to the station. It is not operated by Northern and not subject to railway byelaws.

I am glad that you clarified this matter, as I had intended to make a posting on the same subject.

 

[Manchester77]

I posted this on SCC and wondered if anyone on here has any idea and could help:
With the restriction applying to former CLC Oxford Road - Liverpool line it's causing some very awkward journeys for the passengers using Trafford Park and Humphrey Park which have a very erratic infrequent service. I often go into town on an afternoon train and return on the 1644 from Oxford Road purchasing an off peak return into town. Due to the new restrictions the next train I'll be able to travel on is the 1844 from Oxford Road. Obviously I'm not going to wait for 2 hours just to avoid the peak fare however I do wonder what I'll have to ask the guard for, I'm not sure a half off peak half peak fare exists. I shall have to look on BR fares and NRE to see what the situation is.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

As I've said before I believe peak restrictions should be changed to something similar to this (based on the new restrictions for Northern)
Valid on trains between 09:30 and 15:59 and at or after 18:30. Also between 09:19-09:29 where there is no further service in the same direction before 10:20 and 18:19-18:29 where there is no further service in the same direction before 19:20.
These restrictions apply MONDAY to FRIDAY only, and do not apply on public holiday.

So that's the latter then....

For me a clearer way of communicating the information to passengers would be if on the timetable and information screens (in stations with them ) the train had either a P or OP on the screen to tell passengers if the train is Peak or Not , That way you could have individual restrictions at every station for every train without having to lay down a complex restriction system

That would be very clear if everyone made the same journey with the same restrictions, but I doubt the restrictions for, say, Bolton to Manchester are the same as, say, Bolton to London. How could you label it OP for one person and P for another without some sort of ticket/face recognition system?

I posted this on SCC and wondered if anyone on here has any idea and could help:
With the restriction applying to former CLC Oxford Road - Liverpool line it's causing some very awkward journeys for the passengers using Trafford Park and Humphrey Park which have a very erratic infrequent service. I often go into town on an afternoon train and return on the 1644 from Oxford Road purchasing an off peak return into town. Due to the new restrictions the next train I'll be able to travel on is the 1844 from Oxford Road. Obviously I'm not going to wait for 2 hours just to avoid the peak fare however I do wonder what I'll have to ask the guard for, I'm not sure a half off peak half peak fare exists. I shall have to look on BR fares and NRE to see what the situation is.

You would have to buy an Anytime Day Return or, if you prefer, an Off-Peak Day single to go and Anytime Day Single to return.

Alternatively you could buy an Off-Peak Day Return and, if you decide to return at 'peak time', obtain an Excess Fare (to the Anytime Day Return) to allow you to use the 'peak time' service.

 

[northwichcat]

I posted this on SCC and wondered if anyone on here has any idea and could help:
With the restriction applying to former CLC Oxford Road - Liverpool line it's causing some very awkward journeys for the passengers using Trafford Park and Humphrey Park which have a very erratic infrequent service. I often go into town on an afternoon train and return on the 1644 from Oxford Road purchasing an off peak return into town. Due to the new restrictions the next train I'll be able to travel on is the 1844 from Oxford Road. Obviously I'm not going to wait for 2 hours just to avoid the peak fare however I do wonder what I'll have to ask the guard for, I'm not sure a half off peak half peak fare exists. I shall have to look on BR fares and NRE to see what the situation is.

You'll just have to buy an Anytime Return instead. The guard will probably ask you when are you returning when the evening peak restriction starts. You don't get a discounted price for travelling one way in the off-peak.

 

[Rail Ranger]

One alternative is to buy an Urmston-Manchester CTLZ off-peak day return and then return on the 1544 from Oxford Road to Urmston.

Or go on a Saturday.

I know that neither suggestion is particularly good.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Can I ask advice upon how travel back into Manchester Victoria on the 1528 from Clitheroe would be viewed when the off-peak return ticket was purchased in Manchester and the outward journey was made on the 1000 Manchester Victoria to Clitheroe service

 

[Rail Ranger]

Paul,

This would not be affected because you are boarding the train before 1600 and anyway I don't think Clitheroe is affected by the changes.

 

[northwichcat]

Can I ask advice upon how travel back into Manchester Victoria on the 1528 from Clitheroe would be viewed when the off-peak return ticket was purchased in Manchester and the outward journey was made on the 1000 Manchester Victoria to Clitheroe service

The off-peak ticket would be valid on the 15:28 from Clitheroe. Clitheroe isn't included in the restrictions:
http://www.northernrail.org/tickets...um=Offline&utm_campaign=Off-peak-restrictions

 

[Manchester77]

You would have to buy an Anytime Day Return or, if you prefer, an Off-Peak Day single to go and Anytime Day Single to return.

Alternatively you could buy an Off-Peak Day Return and, if you decide to return at 'peak time', obtain an Excess Fare (to the Anytime Day Return) to allow you to use the 'peak time' service.

You'll just have to buy an Anytime Return instead. The guard will probably ask you when are you returning when the evening peak restriction starts. You don't get a discounted price for travelling one way in the off-peak.

One alternative is to buy an Urmston-Manchester CTLZ off-peak day return and then return on the 1544 from Oxford Road to Urmston.

Or go on a Saturday.

I know that neither suggestion is particularly good.

Thanks for the advice everyone, I now feel confident that I won't get caught out! It's a pity the online national rail app doesn't give any of this information instead it just tells me that the fare for the return leg is unavailable

 

[Starmill]

Do you want a system everyone can understand in a simple way, or do you want an intricate system where even the staff have to look up the restrictions (or guess)?

Which, in your opinion, describes the national situation regarding ticket restrictions at present?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I have done some rough-and-ready searching to see how late I can legally remain on a train in Greater Manchester with an off-peak ticket (or GM Rail Ranger). So far the latest I have found is 16:53 at Manchester Airport on the Northern train originating from Southport.

You can get on at Wigan Wallgate (15:53) or Hindley (15:58) but Westhoughton (16:02) is a No-No.

Presumably if I carry a GM Rail Ranger ticket and take a selfie of myself boarding at Hindley I am covered (even if the clock strikes 4) as the scheduled departure time is 15:58.

But if I presented the same ticket with photographic evidence I got on at Westhoughton, Bolton or later I would expect to be fined. An odd and somewhat perverse case of being illegal to join a train too far along. But I know these types of case are already not unique.

Not sure if a TICKET departing Hindley but actually boarding one stop later at WHG is also illegal? Of course one can generally board a stop late with impunity at other times of day.

There would be no requirement to take any photographs. Also, a single journey may involve one or more changes of train.

 

[greatkingrat]

The way the restriction is currently programmed means you can't change trains between 1601-1829, even if your journey started before 1600.

For example, Hadfield - Bolton, the last option given for an off-peak ticket is 1429 from Hadfield, arriving Bolton 1545.
The 1459 from Hadfield would require a peak ticket as it connects onto the 1603 from Piccadilly.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Which, in your opinion, describes the national situation regarding ticket restrictions at present?....

The latter, but if we are going to add restrictions to the system I'd rather they were easy to understand, and follow, than complex and confusing.

 

[Starmill]

The way the restriction is currently programmed means you can't change trains between 1601-1829, even if your journey started before 1600.

For example, Hadfield - Bolton, the last option given for an off-peak ticket is 1429 from Hadfield, arriving Bolton 1545.
The 1459 from Hadfield would require a peak ticket as it connects onto the 1603 from Piccadilly.

I wonder if travel must be complete by the start of the peak then? This is not the case with all restrictions, and this one doesn't seem to specify.

 

[Chapeltom]

I wonder if travel must be complete by the start of the peak then? This is not the case with all restrictions, and this one doesn't seem to specify.

That would be excessively draconian, and hopefully not how these new restrictions work.

 

[yorkie]

But if I presented the same ticket with photographic evidence I got on at Westhoughton, Bolton or later I would expect to be fined.

I wouldn't call it a "fine".

If you have an Off Peak Day Return, and travelled at a restricted time for which the ticket was not valid, the following would apply:

12. Restrictions on when you can travel
Restrictions apply to the use of some tickets (including those bought with a Railcard) in addition to/other than those in Condition 10 above such as the dates, days, and times when you can use them, and the trains in which they can be used. These restrictions will be made clear to you by the seller when you buy your ticket. If a restriction applies and the ticket you are using is not valid for the train you are travelling in, then you will be liable to pay an excess fare (the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel in that train for the journey shown on the ticket.

For example, the holder of a Railcard discounted Westhoughton - Bolton Off Peak Day Single (£1.50) could expect to be charged an excess to an Anytime Day Single, the price of which is £1.80, so the excess is 30p.

Whether this would be a productive use of the conductor's time, I couldn't possibly comment, but perhaps someone could ask Alex Hynes?

It becomes more problematical if you hold a GM Rail Ranger (and if these become time restricted), because the appropriate fare to excess to would have been a Wayfarer, except you can't excess to a Wayfarer. I believe Northern would argue that these are tickets for which NRCoC 12 doesn't apply, so it would be a new ticket.

It's a good job ticketing is simple and we know exactly where we stand. Imagine if it was complicated?