ROC Locations, confused? you will be.

[rugbymidland]

Fairly recently Network Rail confirmed that the number of proposed Rail Operating Centres (ROCs) would be reduced to 12, by the dropping of Saltley and Ashford.

In a recent Railway Magazine article, it appears that Ashford was to be reprieved and Gillingham was being dropped instead!

However in a new document, there are still 12 planned ROCs; 6 new and 6 upgrades.

But the upgrades are now listed as both Ashford and Gillingham, plus a reprieve for Saltley. The other 3 upgrades being Derby, Edinburgh and Cardiff. No mention of Didcot or Glasgow!

Does anybody know which combination to believe ?

European TrainControl System– the future of signalling is here

There are 12 Rail Operating Centres in total, 6 new builds and 6 existing Network Rail centres that will be upgraded to ROC status.

New buildings

1. Jan 2014 – Three Bridges ROC goes live
2. Jul 2014 – Manchester ROC goes live
3. Jan 2015 – York ROC goes live
4. Feb 2015 – Romford ROC goes live
5. Aug 2015 – Rugby ROC goes live
6. Feb 2016 – Basingstoke ROC goes live

Centres to be upgraded

Ashford / Cardiff / Derby / Edinburgh / Gillingham / Saltley

(Page 8 of the above PDF is the source of above latest info )

 

[The Planner]

I dont think thats right, Saltley isnt becoming a ROC. I cant find a date on that document but it must be old?

 

[jimjim]

It is all up in the air.

LNW (S) NR Control staff were told in the last couple of months that the control was being split with the Midland and Western lines going to Saltley in October. West Coast to Rugby next year. At some point in the future Saltley going to Rugby.
This now seems to be on hold.

 

[rugbymidland]

The document I referred to had only just appeared on the net and has 2014/6 in its web address so I think it is pretty new

 

[carriageline]

To be fair, even internal Network Rail documents don't even list boxes as going to ashford or Gillingham! It was announced that Ashford would go to Gillingham around 2020, with Medway boxes, and Medway Valley boxes going next year. I think that's slipped back at least a year though.


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[HarleyDavidson]

ROCs a disaster in the making.

 

[DarloRich]

ROCs a disaster in the making.

Why is that?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Only needs a major weather incident such as flooding, severe electrical storms to shut the ROC down and you've lost the lot. One terrorist threat or even fire alarm going off..

And as the saying goes never say never, they say that they'll be able to do a transfer of all control functions to another ROC should such event occur, YEAH RIGHT!

Obviously no one at NR has heard of the adage: Never put all of your eggs in one basket.

 

[DarloRich]

Only needs a major weather incident such as flooding, severe electrical storms to shut the ROC down and you've lost the lot. One terrorist threat or even fire alarm going off..

And as the saying goes never say never, they say that they'll be able to do a transfer of all control functions to another ROC should such event occur, YEAH RIGHT!

Surely the same with Air Traffic Control or any centralised control point though?

 

[ilkestonian]

Why is that?

As I see it, as well as the points made by the previous poster, the more remote the signalling gets, the less likely it is that the signallers, or whatever they are called in the new bunkers, will have any route knowledge.

As well as helping with regulating decisions, local knowledge can be very useful in the event of a crisis or emergency IMHO.

 

[DarloRich]

I think it is more of a disaster for the people working in the signal boxes to close as they will have to find new jobs. Surely the training you receive as a signaller in a new ROC will encompass the required route knowledge?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Surely the same with Air Traffic Control or any centralised control point though?

It is, you've already seen what happens when NATS (which controls almost all of the UK air space) at Swanwick went haywire a while back. Major delays.

And to answer your second point, I think you'll find that a considerable number would take redundancy or retire than work in one of those holes. What really makes me chuckle is NR's somewhat bizarre belief that this new "TMS" aka Traffic Management System will solve all ill's on the railway & sort out all of the conflicting moves & problems.

 

[ilkestonian]

I think it is more of a disaster for the people working in the signal boxes to close as they will have to find new jobs. Surely the training you receive as a signaller in a new ROC will encompass the required route knowledge?

I totally agree with you regarding jobs. Some bobbies move to the new ROCs but older ones tend to take retirement rather than swap a proper railway job for an office bound desk job miles from home.

And from what I've read, route knowledge isn't seen as particularly important, and staff levels are often pared to the bone to the extent that there is insufficient slack to allow anyone to spend time out "on the road"

 

[The Planner]

So how did we cope in the 60s with the move to PSBs and IECCs?

 

[HarleyDavidson]

So how did we cope in the 60s with the move to PSBs and IECCs?

I'd have thought that with the number of recurring problems with Swindon & Slough you'd know that answer.

Look at the high number of problems we've had on the WoE line from Salisbury to Feniton with Basingstoke New & Ash Vale to Alton, where they've done recontrol projects. Barely a week goes past without a signalling issue. :roll:

 

[WatcherZero]

Document is dated 21st May so fairly recent.

 

[user15681]

To be fair, even internal Network Rail documents don't even list boxes as going to ashford or Gillingham! It was announced that Ashford would go to Gillingham around 2020, with Medway boxes, and Medway Valley boxes going next year. I think that's slipped back at least a year though.


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Indeed, that's how I understood it. Medway boxes and Medway Valley boxes will go to Gillingham ROC in 2015, whilst Maidstone East and Folkestone East would go to Ashford IECC in 2016 and 2017 respectively. Then, in 2020 Ashford would be recontrolled to Three Bridges ROC or Gillingham ROC.

As well as sketchy suggestions of Wye/Canterbury West going to Ashford IECC, along with Tongbridge and Hastings many many years into the future.

But if that document is May, maybe something has changed.

 

[Bald Rick]

Only needs a major weather incident such as flooding, severe electrical storms to shut the ROC down and you've lost the lot. One terrorist threat or even fire alarm going off..

Same applies at any big signalling centre today, and has done for over 50 years.

 

[ainsworth74]

Same applies at any big signalling centre today, and has done for over 50 years.

They also seem to survive on the continent and the States with large centralised signalling centres...

 

[HarleyDavidson]

They also seem to survive on the continent and the States with large centralised signalling centres...

Yeah, but the Yanks don't have the rail traffic levels that we do, our train service is extremely intense, unlike over there where some places have one train a week or every other day or a frequent service is hourly & unlike the British who are skinflints & tighter than a duck 4r$€ when it comes to money & investment, they invest in technology that's known for robustness & performance, whereas here it comes down to money & oh, that'll do.

A sentiment that later comes back to haunt them, because they end up paying far more in compensation for delays & other factors.

This obsession with money has cost lives in the past & it will do so again.

 

[yorksrob]

Seems a bit of a waste to get rid of Ashford as its already quite new.

 

[Bald Rick]

Seems a bit of a waste to get rid of Ashford as its already quite new.

Over 20 years old. Anyway, HS1 are in there as well, and no plans to move them yet.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Or they've not made their plans "public" or open to the staff that could be affected.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yeah, but the Yanks don't have the rail traffic levels that we do, our train service is extremely intense, unlike over there where some places have one train a week or every other day or a frequent service is hourly

Except that the BNSF dispatch centre in Fort Worth, TX, runs commuter operations in Seattle, Chicago, New Mexico (plus others) as well as the second largest railroad in the US.

Or the RFI Control Centre in Bologna which controls a fair part of all northern
Italy's traffic plus all the high speed network.

Or more impressively, the JR east control centre in Tokyo
http://www.ucl.ac.uk/resilience-research/research/railwaysignal/UCLWorkshop19Jun2013EJR

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Yes, but you missed the point completely.

They have invested heavily and bought the best, most reliable, tried & tested technology which works, as have the French & Germans when it comes to the "High Speed" networks.

Here they're tight fisted a hell when it comes to investment in technology, they always want everything at a bargain basement price & all you're going to get for a bargain basement price is cheap, nasty & unreliable cr4p, which will ultimately prove to not be such a bargain, because it breaks down so often and causes mayhem or is obsolete so quickly that it needs replacing & updating within a matter of a few years.

The re-control projects have proven that, time & time again.

 

[Bald Rick]

Yes, but you missed the point completely.

They have invested heavily and bought the best, most reliable, tried & tested technology which works, as have the French & Germans when it comes to the "High Speed" networks.

Here they're tight fisted a hell when it comes to investment in technology, they always want everything at a bargain basement price & all you're going to get for a bargain basement price is cheap, nasty & unreliable cr4p, which will ultimately prove to not be such a bargain, because it breaks down so often and causes mayhem or is obsolete so quickly that it needs replacing & updating within a matter of a few years.

The re-control projects have proven that, time & time again.

So the systems being bought for some of the ROCs are exactly the same as those that DB use in Germany, and not wanting to put all the eggs in one basket IIRC some of the ROCs will use the systems that JR East use in Tokyo. The system in use at Ashford for HS1 is exactly the same that the French use, they even use the same forms for degraded working.

I've seen all of these working, and there is no reason to suggest they won't work here.

 

[talltim]

One of the issues is that no matter how good the kit is, if a ROC goes down due to external influences (weather etc.) you can transfer the control to another one technically with no probleem, but it will be very hard to get the extra staff to it to do the controlling.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

I forgot Ashford IECC does control HS1, so that would have the TVM430 signalling stuff in it.

But I just do NOT trust NR to get it right, because previous experiences have proven otherwise. Look at the shambolic PARs project at Havant, it's a farcical thing. There they have to use interface modules to get the computers to work the points, points that the computer thinks is in Germany!

Again there's barely a week going by where that new fangled signalbox at Havant doesn't throw a wobbler and screw up SWT, SN & FGWs service. One evening it took me over an hour to go from Havant to Portsmouth & Southsea with a 1Pxx, an ~12' journey, because that junk heap threw it's electronic toys out of its pram.

What's more worrying is that NR intend to keep it running until well into 2040 or beyond, not that I care I've only got about 10 years to do. I dread to think what will happen when they try to bring in ERTMS.

 

[LowLevel]

The GN/GE Joint and Ely to Norwich are both rubbish with constant level crossing, axle counter and points failures. Bring back the Victorian sheds and bits of cast iron and wire please.

 

[LAX54]

They also seem to survive on the continent and the States with large centralised signalling centres...

Saw a TV programme a few months ago, part of it visted the Chicago Dispatch Center, very impressive, full of computers / screens etc, they were proud of the set up, and it did control quite a few thousand miles, but what made me smile was when he said, 'yes, we deal with in excess of 800 trains a day' ! LOL reckon Waterloo or Liverpool Street see that in afew hours !