Conductor punched at Blackpool South Wed 14 Jan

[Whistler40145]

Duncanp, I live in Blackpool and AFAIK Blackpool South Railway station doesn't have CCTV. I find the actions of this individual deplorable, should be banned from travelling with Northern and possibly other TOCs. Railway staff should have the right to carry out their duties without the fear of being attacked.

 

[Chrism20]

There isn't any CCTV cameras around the station or the adjacent council car park IIRC, there is however quite a few around the Waterloo Road and Lytham Road area on the Promenade side of the station due to the nightlife and shops around there, here is hoping the attacker has went that way to try and get a bus to Blackpool North. I don't think there are any CCTV cameras heading in the other direction away from the Promenade so if they have went that way it might be more difficult to catch the assailant.

Blackpools CCTV is no longer manned (At least during the week) due to cut backs but it will still be viewable at a later date.

Here hoping the conductor makes a speedy recovery and is back at work soon.

 

[Antman]

Who in their right mind arrives for a train within 1 minute of the departure time? We cannot all wear an accurate timepiece set to railways time.
I prefer to arrive well before a train is due to allow for differences in my watch (a Rolex before you ask) to the train operators time.

Somebody who has been delayed en route perhaps? Who in their right mind departs ahead of schedule? Who in their right mind assaults somebody as a result? None of us were there so until such time as the full facts are established is there any point in jumping to conclusions?

 

[Whistler40145]

I totally agree Antman, it's no good speculating until the true story is available.

 

[Spamcan81]

Who in their right mind arrives for a train within 1 minute of the departure time? We cannot all wear an accurate timepiece set to railways time.
I prefer to arrive well before a train is due to allow for differences in my watch (a Rolex before you ask) to the train operators time.

There can be a number of reasons for arriving too close to departure time for comfort. Heavier than usual traffic, late running bus, car wouldn't start etc. It's not always the fault of the intending passenger.

 

[herschell]

Also posters at the mainline stations warn that trains may close there doors up to 2 minutes prior to departure, I think that's mainly at the terminus stations.

 

[Class377]

Without trying to turn this into a punctuality debate...

I wonder how many people on here have actually used Blackpool South? It's a tiny station with one departure an hour. It's not like a major terminus with departures every few minutes - if you miss a train there, you've got a long wait so you need to get there with time to spare.

Not only that, but the train only has a 4-5 minute turnaround from arriving to departing. The arriving service that formed this cancelled train arrived 2 minutes late as well so it's extremely unlikely that it left early!

 

[AndyPJG]

All this discussion about trains departing early should not hide the real issue of an unjustified assault on a public facing member of railway staff.

 

[Whistler40145]

Yes Class377, it's a quick turnaround and back out to Colne.

 

[Flamingo]

I've seen before, passenger gets onto platform 10.01:30, to see the 10.01 rolling out, starts screaming at me "you left early", I wave goodbye.

10.01 is the time the wheels start turning, 10.00:30 is when the passenger needs to be on board, but a passenger looking at his watch just sees 10.01, and some people could never admit they might be the ones at fault.

Anyway, more importantly, best wishes to the Guard, this kind of experience can be quite traumatic (especially on a "commuter" train, in my experience one is somehow more geared up to it on a late train.)

 

[Whistler40145]

Well Flamingo, I've arrived at least 30 minutes early on a Winter Saturday for the first Colne train, so that's the opposite example of what can happen!

 

[TheEdge]

Yes, I'm completely serious. Late running can sometimes not be avoided. Early running is always avoidable, by the simple act of actively checking the correct departure time for your train at every station against a correctly-set watch or clock before pressing "close doors".

Tell me, is it hard being perfect? Can you safely say you have never made a simple mistake, especially when that mistake is a slight change in a repetitive task?

Example 1. There is a line I work where all intermediate stations have zero dwell time, that is arrive xx:05 depart xx:05, so in reality, open doors, passengers on off, close doors, go. Except one, one has up to two minutes dwell, normally xx:21 to xx:22 but sometimes xx:20 to xx:22. On normal trains with people getting on and off not normally an issue. Very early or late ones however it is quite easy to leave early in error because all intermediate stops are purely academic, stop, release, no passengers, close, go. Stop done in less than 30 seconds and you can easily get ahead of yourself.

Example 2: One particular train I work has a significant amount of recovery time (5m) put at an intermediate timing point to cater for a regular late running issue. However if that issue doesn't present it is very easy to arrive at the penultimate station 4 to 5 minutes early. Again, normally that stop has zero dwell time so again, very easy to leave early.

Example 3: The distraction. Lets say I've been dealing with a query for a passenger, I've got distracted and we've pulled into a station, I go to the nearest set of doors, hop off, do the doors, hop on, leave. All the while in the back of my head remembering to go back to that person. I then look at my diagram and notice that I was meant to dwell.

These things happen, PIS screens can be wrong in fact I knew of one location on Norwich station where for a while you could stand and see three different PIS displays all displaying a different time. Watches can be wrong. Traincrew are human.

 

[Whistler40145]

TheEdge, I can totally understand, but those who don't know the railways (normals) wouldn't have a clue. I don't work on the railways, but have a great deal of time and sympathy for you all.

 

[LowLevel]

I left 3 stations in a row up to 3 minutes early a little while back. Both mine and the driver's job card had the wrong times on them. These things happen, irritating though it is.

 

[muz379]

There can be a number of reasons for arriving too close to departure time for comfort. Heavier than usual traffic, late running bus, car wouldn't start etc. It's not always the fault of the intending passenger.

Indeed but then thats not the TOC or the guards fault either ,

Without trying to turn this into a punctuality debate...

I wonder how many people on here have actually used Blackpool South? It's a tiny station with one departure an hour. It's not like a major terminus with departures every few minutes - if you miss a train there, you've got a long wait so you need to get there with time to spare.

Not only that, but the train only has a 4-5 minute turnaround from arriving to departing. The arriving service that formed this cancelled train arrived 2 minutes late as well so it's extremely unlikely that it left early!

Indeed , say im going to rochdale from Mancehester victoria , I will aim to get there for a specific train but I wont leave myself much if any room for error because there are 4 an hour so worst case scenario I get a coffee and wait 15 minutes . But when I was catching the train to Marsden(1 train an hour ) to go out walking I made sure I aimed for a specific train and left with enough time so that if something went wrong I didnt miss it . I got to the station 15 mins early so got a coffee .

 

[St Rollox]

Didn't Blackpool South used to have two platforms.

 

[Chrism20]

Didn't Blackpool South used to have two platforms.

Became single platform early to mid eighties IIRC

 

[craigybagel]

Which scenario is more likely :

A guard based at a depot that works 100% of services on that line (so they will be familiar with the timetable) , decided to cut short their turnaround time, the only respite from a very intensive service (a time that was apparently even shorter than normal if the inward working did arrive late as someone else posted) and leave early, something that would be of no benefit to them whatsoever.

Or the passenger, who lest we forget is the type of person who finds it acceptable to punch people, which doesn't say much for their character, might have been late.

I know which version I find more likely.....

 

[Flamingo]

Well Flamingo, I've arrived at least 30 minutes early on a Winter Saturday for the first Colne train, so that's the opposite example of what can happen!

That wait on a cold platform is never good

I've just seen two passengers, the train is going off the opposite platform at 15.15, the station clock both passengers are looking at says 15.13:50, one is starting to run for the steps and the other says "Don't worry, we have two minutes yet, it doesn't go until 15.15"!

I say to both of them, "You have thirty seconds before the doors are locked". They looked at me as if I'm lying. I have no idea how it ended, but the train was late leaving...

 

[sarahj]

As someone who makes sure they never leave early, even if I'm getting a tip from P staff. I've been accused by some passengers of leaving early. What this normally means in a train timed to depart at eg 14.30, is leaving at 14.30. They look at the PIS and see a train timed at 14.30, the time on the clock says 14.30, but the train is starting to move. They have arrived at 14.30, and been unable to catch the train. I'm thus called a fu#@ing bi%£h for leaving early.

If I'm running correclty and have the time, for that departure at 14.30, my routine is:
14.29.30. Blow whistle.
14.29.35. If platform and doors clear, close doors
14.29.40-45 Once doors closed and bill lights out, check again and close local door
14.29.50-55 Signal driver.
14.30 train starts to move (hopefully).

If anyone arrives after the 14.29.40 sequence, there is a chance they are not going to catch that train. For us, to reopen the doors involves.
Calling up the driver and asking for the doors to be reopend. This can add up to 1 min plus delay I'm not going to do that unless I really have to, as this will delay the train. Thus effecting all the passengers who did arrive on time. On some occasions I might hold my local door open a bit longer for a 'runner'. But if they fail to respond to me shouting 'here' and stand at another closed door, then , sorry, but no. (and you would be amazed how many folks do this). And I'm gone.



Of course, by assaulting the guard, the original passenger, A missed that train, and B will be missing many more trains in the future. And with any luck, will be soon missing feeling safe in the shower.

 

[455driver]

To all those posting scenarios where trains can get early, the station in question is a terminus station, the arrived 2 minutes late on a 5 minute turnaround so only actually 3 minutes, what are the chances of the train arriving, the driver keying out, walking to the other end, setting the cab up, getting the tip from the guard and then leave early?
Just a thought for all those trying to make out that this in some way is the staffs fault!

 

[Flamingo]

To all those posting scenarios where trains can get early, the station in question is a terminus station, the arrived 2 minutes late on a 5 minute turnaround so only actually 3 minutes, what are the chances of the train arriving, the driver keying out, walking to the other end, setting the cab up, getting the tip from the guard and then leave early?
Just a thought for all those trying to make out that this in some way is the staffs fault!

But it can NEVER be the customers fault :roll:

 

[455driver]

But it can NEVER be the customers fault :roll:

Aint that the truth!

 

[sarahj]

Aint that the truth!

We need a like button.



Recently, reading our accidents and trips report, a train was about to leave. A punter, then jumped out of the train and knocked the conductor flying. The conclusion: We should have more announcements so that customers would have more time to prepare to leave the train. Real reason. the punter was a tit.

 

[Class377]

He's not a customer, he's a passenger damnit

 

[sarahj]

He's not a customer, he's a passenger damnit

The line we got was, on the platform they are a customer, once on the train a passenger. So someone who missed the train by being late, is a customer.


might have changed and I missed the memo/e mail

 

[hounddog]

To all those posting scenarios where trains can get early, the station in question is a terminus station, the arrived 2 minutes late on a 5 minute turnaround so only actually 3 minutes, what are the chances of the train arriving, the driver keying out, walking to the other end, setting the cab up, getting the tip from the guard and then leave early?
Just a thought for all those trying to make out that this in some way is the staffs fault!

I don't think anyone's saying the assault in this case is the staff's fault but plenty are saying that leaving early is somehow NOT the railway's fault or that it is acceptable or inevitable.

 

[455driver]

I don't think anyone's saying the assault in this case is the staff's fault but plenty are saying that leaving early is somehow NOT the railway's fault or that it is acceptable or inevitable.

And there are penty saying the train left early coz the idiot said so and I am merely pointing out that it is highly unlikely that this train could have left early!

People are pointing out how trains en route can get early, where has anyone pointed out that trains can leave the starting station early?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The line we got was, on the platform they are a customer, once on the train a passenger. So someone who missed the train by being late, is a customer.


might have changed and I missed the memo/e mail

Hence the CIS on the station and the PIS on the train!

 

[TUC]

He's not a customer, he's a passenger damnit

Without at all wishing to detract from the seriousness of the issue in the OP, what's the problems with using 'customers'? 'Customers' are someone on whom my business depends, with whom there is a contractual relationship, for whom there are expectations of being treated well. 'Passenger' is a passive term that conveys no such messages, any more than being a sack of potatoes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tell me, is it hard being perfect? Can you safely say you have never made a simple mistake, especially when that mistake is a slight change in a repetitive task?

Why not simply *always* check the time before departing? To assume...

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

After having apparently unsafely stopped a train that had departed? I doubt it

In what manner is giving one buzz "unsafe"? Though I expect procedure would be that once buzz-buzz has been given, a stop will not occur except in an emergency, however nice the passenger.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

LOL god love this being told how to do your job by someone who has no idea .

Yes as an Ideal train crew dont plan to run early , and if it was a recurring issue then it needs looking at . But as a one off it happens to the best of us

I don't believe *any* traincrew plan to run early (some bus drivers definitely do, and the coming of GPS tracking to ensure they get kicked for doing so has really improved things).

However, laziness ("It must be time to go, this station is only a half minute stop") can cause earliness. And of course if you make a genuine error at one station, you will continue to be early at every intermediate station unless you are professional enough to check every time.

Look at watch, look at whatever you have your times written on, door close. Or even glance at the PIS on increasing numbers of stations.
early running is not always avoidable by checking the time of departure . As I pointed out I remember an occasion when my diagram said I departed station X at xx:20 however the PIS said that the service departed at xx:22 . Now had I not bothered checking the PIS which I am under no obligation to do because my company issued radio controlled watch is what I am to use for time then I would have run early through no fault of my own .

Assuming you are using a company issue watch, if you run according to that that's fine - indeed that's what I'd expect you would do - but I would similarly expect if a member of traincrew sees a wrong time or other PIS error they should ensure it is reported.

Neil
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And there are penty saying the train left early coz the idiot said so and I am merely pointing out that it is highly unlikely that this train could have left early!

My points regarding early running are more general - I don't know if it did in this case or not.

However, the unacceptability of assaulting a member of traincrew does not change regardless of what the train did. It is never acceptable to do so. So they're sort-of separate points.

Neil