Landslip between Banbury and Leamington Spa (31.01.2015)

[L&Y Robert]

Shouldn't this thread be in "Infrastructure and Stations"?

 

[The Planner]

. l would also like to know from Network Rail why trains cannot be diverted via Cotswold line.(no disrespect to any previous posters here )

They can, we can't force them to do it though. If XC want to go that way and can organise route conductors with FGW and paths with NR then it can be done.

Also can someone explain the differences between W6 , W10 loading gauges? I can understand that container traffic obviously needs special routing partly due to the length of some of the trains and the necessary clearance ,and lack of suitable paths across Birmingham ?

Very loosely, it is the height of the wagons (W8 allows 2.6m containers, W10 allows 2.9m and wider containers). Only certain trunk routes are cleared as the structures have been cleared or rebuilt to allow it. Length is only a problem when it comes to looping, pathing is neither here nor there, if they fit they fit.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Shouldn't this thread be in "Infrastructure and Stations"?

It is a bit late in the day to ask that question, noting the extremely large number of posts that have been made on the thread to date.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

Virgins website still saying WCML work to go ahead in February. It doesn't take much to say its been cancelled.
Hoping for a detailed press release from Network Rail today. Uncertainty and rumours no good to anyone. l would also like to know from Network Rail why trains cannot be diverted via Cotswold line.(no disrespect to any previous posters here )

Also can someone explain the differences between W6 , W10 loading gauges? I can understand that container traffic obviously needs special routing partly due to the length of some of the trains and the necessary clearance ,and lack of suitable paths across Birmingham ?

There is a press release on the Virgin website confirming that the WCML blocks have been cancelled and the route will be open, see the attached link.
http://www.virgintrains.co.uk/about...est-coast-main-line-engineering-works-1113905

 

[DarloRich]

Virgins website still saying WCML work to go ahead in February. It doesn't take much to say its been cancelled.
Hoping for a detailed press release from Network Rail today. Uncertainty and rumours no good to anyone. l would also like to know from Network Rail why trains cannot be diverted via Cotswold line.(no disrespect to any previous posters here )

Also can someone explain the differences between W6 , W10 loading gauges? I can understand that container traffic obviously needs special routing partly due to the length of some of the trains and the necessary clearance ,and lack of suitable paths across Birmingham ?

It has been on the National Rail Enquires site since yesterday evening. I assume the TOC's /NR are working on the message they want to issue jointly to passengers.

Why not email NR and ask them your questions then? For the avoidance of doubt trains can be diverted via the Cotswolds if there are suitable drivers/conductors free and the train paths can be found. Not everything is a conspiracy against you!

On the gauge issue it is to do with the size of the container the wagons can carry. W10 can carry the really big boxes (9ft +) without crashing into the infrastructure.

 

[sprinterguy]

Also can someone explain the differences between W6 , W10 loading gauges? I can understand that container traffic obviously needs special routing partly due to the length of some of the trains and the necessary clearance ,and lack of suitable paths across Birmingham ?

See the following image for a display of the different loading gauge limits:
http://cdn.londonreconnections.com/assets/loadinggauges.jpg

And from the same source:

W10 gauge allows 9’6″ high containers to be conveyed on standard-height wagons and this is important to maintain rail’s attractiveness in the intermodal market.

The differences between the restrictive W6 and more accommodating W10 gauge are primarily in the (square) upper corners for containers.

 

[LouJ]

The class 68s 'trapped' at the southern end of the Chiltern line were moved to Crewe yesterday afternoon with 68010, 68011 and 68013 heading north in convoy.

 

[jimm]

They are cleared on both lines so if they can get route conducted they would be fine.

And when was a gauging run carried out? I have never seen any evidence of a 22x running Wolvercot jct-Norton jct. When the 180s resumed operation in 2012, FGW carried out a full gauging run all the way out and back. Yes there were new platforms at three stations, so needed to be done, but they measured at every platform old and new. If a 22x has never been on the line, how does anyone actually know they will not hit something? Looks like a paper exercise which has never been confirmed with a real train, which presumably would have to be done in reality.

And even if they can run that way, I don't need to tell you, of all people, of the problems trying to path extra trains on the Cotswold Line. Never mind where conductors would come from, it's not as if FGW has drivers coming out of its ears anyway. Sometimes it's hard enough to rustle up a spare driver at Oxford, never mind sort out XC diversions.

Leyland Len, look up a copy of the Cotswold Line timetable at the FGW website and try to find paths if you think it's that easy. Remember there are nine-mile sections of single track at either end of the line, Wolvercot jct-Charlbury and Evesham-Norton jct. And then you need to find paths between Worcester and Droitwich and on to Birmingham - and fit in with the XC services north of Birmingham and south of Oxford

The Westbury-Hinksey-Bescot engineers train is running via the Cotswolds - requiring some smart running from Oxford to Charlbury to avoid delaying a London-bound passenger train - with the return train also using the route late in the evening.

http://hondawanderer.com/70809_66176_Shorthampton_2015.htm

 

[The Planner]

And when was a gauging run carried out? I have never seen any evidence of a 22x running Wolvercot jct-Norton jct. When the 180s resumed operation in 2012, FGW carried out a full gauging run all the way out and back. Yes there were new platforms at three stations, so needed to be done, but they measured at every platform old and new. If a 22x has never been on the line, how does anyone actually know they will not hit something? Looks like a paper exercise which has never been confirmed with a real train, which presumably would have to be done in reality.

No idea, Im not a gauging engineer, as you say it was probably a computer exercise using gauging software we have. The Sectional Appendix say they are clear and that is the baseline document we all work to, so if it says they are clear, they are clear.

And even if they can run that way, I don't need to tell you, of all people, of the problems trying to path extra trains on the Cotswold Line. Never mind where conductors would come from, it's not as if FGW has drivers coming out of its ears anyway. Sometimes it's hard enough to rustle up a spare driver at Oxford, never mind sort out XC diversions.

Thats for XC and FGW to sort out and see if it is workable, as for paths, there may be a decision to run with inbuilt delay as the freight will be now on the WCML and NR coughs up (as they would for the route conducting etc...). It would all be worked through and decisions made.

 

[221129]

Could XC not take services the same way as the empty stock workings? Although they would still need route conducting I expect.

 

[jimm]

No idea, Im not a gauging engineer, as you say it was probably a computer exercise using gauging software we have. The Sectional Appendix say they are clear and that is the baseline document we all work to, so if it says they are clear, they are clear.



Thats for XC and FGW to sort out and see if it is workable, as for paths, there may be a decision to run with inbuilt delay as the freight will be now on the WCML and NR coughs up (as they would for the route conducting etc...). It would all be worked through and decisions made.

It's pretty obvious no one is considering the idea. It would only make sense if you could provide a robust hourly path for XC each way all day, all the way between Oxford and Birmingham - and anyone who can find one of those through the Cotswold Line morning peak in particular (the 07.12 from Charlbury is cut back to Oxford the instant anything else is running late) - gets five gold stars.

 

[Monkey Magic]

On the southern section of the Cotswold line after 10 there is only one slot per hour available.

It takes about 20 mins to travel the single track section between Charlbury and Wolvercote.

There are however, some gaps - for example there is nothing towards London from 13.00 until 15.00 as there is no 14.00 London bound service but other than that there are simply no available slots - there maybe a couple after 22.00

XC would probably be limited to running 1 train in either direction every 2 hours.

 

[PHILIPE]

Shouldn't this thread be in "Infrastructure and Stations"?

When the thread opened it was more about an incident relating to disruption to train services. As time went on it has developed into a thread discussing not only the landslip but varying aspects of train working without going off topic.

 

[67018]

On the southern section of the Cotswold line after 10 there is only one slot per hour available.

It takes about 20 mins to travel the single track section between Charlbury and Wolvercote.

There are however, some gaps - for example there is nothing towards London from 13.00 until 15.00 as there is no 14.00 London bound service but other than that there are simply no available slots - there maybe a couple after 22.00

XC would probably be limited to running 1 train in either direction every 2 hours.

Isn't this all a moot point anyway? - since, even if paths were available, a coach from Banbury to Leamington is easier and quicker, and would be the preferred option for most passengers anyway.

 

[Monkey Magic]

I was just highlighting that there is little to no capacity on the Cotswold line for the poster(s) who asked about re-routing.

You would at best be able to run 1 extra train either north or south and that isn't really viable.

 

[D1009]

Isn't this all a moot point anyway? - since, even if paths were available, a coach from Banbury to Leamington is easier and quicker, and would be the preferred option for most passengers anyway.

I acknowledge it may be quicker, but how would it be easier, particularly if you are disabled and have luggage? Also, when we get to the Easter holiday period, resourcing of sufficient road coaches could become a problem.

 

[67018]

I acknowledge it may be quicker, but how would it be easier, particularly if you are disabled and have luggage? Also, when we get to the Easter holiday period, resourcing of sufficient road coaches could become a problem.

It's substantially easier for the TOC. For the passenger, it depends, but the majority might prefer a journey that goes as planned with a bit of a delay, than one that takes much longer and could well get delayed en route.

To me. it doesn't make sense to make elaborate plans for massive diversions to cater for a small minority of passengers who want to stay on the train, when a better service can be provided by making sure there is adequate staff assistance and luggage/disabled space on the coach replacement. A simple, reliable contingency plan is best, there's less to go wrong.

 

[LeylandLen]

Thanks for all the relevant information ! I've read press releases where applicable. I might add that have a Disable Railcard so prefer to stay on a train , and be kept informed where necessary. I've learnt about W8 W10 gauging now !

I must admit I didn't know there is 9 miles of single track on Cotswold line. Hope to see for myself later in the year.!

Must spare a thought for all the people involved with all the unplanned extra work, from the Orange Army needed to fix the landslip at Harbury , to all the planning people who reschedule trains, not forgetting the front line people who have to explain it all to customers, sorry I mean passengers !! Then there's the Virgin people who thought they weren't need on 14/15 21/22 Feb who now have to work !!

 

[dysonsphere]

I was just highlighting that there is little to no capacity on the Cotswold line for the poster(s) who asked about re-routing.

You would at best be able to run 1 extra train either north or south and that isn't really viable.

True but you could use to balance stock out either side of landslip

 

[Temple Meads]

Also, when we get to the Easter holiday period, resourcing of sufficient road coaches could become a problem.

That is a worry - it became an issue towards the end of the Dawlish closure last year, with coaches having to be sourced from further afield.

 

[221129]

That is a worry - it became an issue towards the end of the Dawlish closure last year, with coaches having to be sourced from further afield.

Which reminds me, today marks 1 year since the Dawlish collapse.

 

[jimm]

Thanks for all the relevant information ! I've read press releases where applicable. I might add that have a Disable Railcard so prefer to stay on a train , and be kept informed where necessary. I've learnt about W8 W10 gauging now !

I must admit I didn't know there is 9 miles of single track on Cotswold line. Hope to see for myself later in the year.!

Must spare a thought for all the people involved with all the unplanned extra work, from the Orange Army needed to fix the landslip at Harbury , to all the planning people who reschedule trains, not forgetting the front line people who have to explain it all to customers, sorry I mean passengers !! Then there's the Virgin people who thought they weren't need on 14/15 21/22 Feb who now have to work !!

It's 18 miles of single track, two times nine miles.

Bit of a convoy on the Hinksey-Bescot run today

http://hondawanderer.com/70806_70808_70805_59201_Shipton_2015.htm

 

[67018]

Chiltern now look like they are trying to upgrade their service a bit and maybe try to keep a bit of the London-Birmingham market. I guess this blockage is going to cost them a fair bit of cash.

Interesting that they are sayng that season tickets will continue to be valid on Virgin and FGW, which implies that, very shortly, other tickets won't.

Timetable from Monday 9 February onwards

We are going to be running an emergency timetable for at least the next few weeks and our plans include further enhancements to the service to provide as much of the normal “Chiltern experience” as we’re able.

These include:

- More trains running from Birmingham to Leamington Spa and Banbury to London with a ‘step-straight-on’ replacement bus service in between

- An extension of the ‘step-step-on’ replacement bus service to include buses direct from Warwick Parkway station to Banbury at peak times in addition to those from Leamington Spa for customers that normally travel from Warwick Parkway

- Fast silver trains with Business Zone carriages running between Birmingham and Leamington Spa and between Banbury and London with a connecting replacement bus services Extensive car parking facilities at Banbury and Warwick Parkway

- A ‘Banbury Fare Match’, meaning that passengers travelling from any of our West Midlands stations to London will pay the Banbury fare to London

- Over 30,000 Advance tickets will be available every week between the West Midlands and London

For full flexibility, Chiltern Railways annual and monthly season tickets will also be valid for travel on Virgin Trains and First Great Western for the duration of the closure period. This applies to Route High Wycombe and Route Banbury season tickets only.

 

[Kite159]

Chiltern now look like they are trying to upgrade their service a bit and maybe try to keep a bit of the London-Birmingham market. I guess this blockage is going to cost them a fair bit of cash.

Interesting that they are sayng that season tickets will continue to be valid on Virgin and FGW, which implies that, very shortly, other tickets won't.

Probably to try and limit clever passengers buying cheaper "chiltern" priced fares to use on the faster virgin service between Birmingham & London?

 

[CC 72100]

Which reminds me, today marks 1 year since the Dawlish collapse.

I imagine there's a report on it on BBC Spotlight (Devon local news) - it was briefly mentioned and hinted at this morning.

 

[Zoidberg]

...

Interesting that they are sayng that season tickets will continue to be valid on Virgin and FGW, which implies that, very shortly, other tickets won't.

But further down that page which is ...

http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/landslipleamington

it says:

Alternative routes for West Midlands passengers:

Passengers travelling between London and the West Midlands may use Virgin Trains and London Midland services between London Euston and Birmingham New Street. Chiltern Railways tickets will be valid on these services, and on London Underground connections between Marylebone and Euston.

with no limit of time mentioned.

 

[67018]

But further down that page which is ...

http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/landslipleamington

it says:



with no limit of time mentioned.

Yes, that's the original bit that's been up since earlier in the week. My guess is that they will change that some time soon when the ticket acceptance stops. Presumably anyone who has pre-booked a ticket will then have to use the replacement bus or get a refund.

 

[Old Hill Bank]

It's a mess, Chiltern are not going to get much West Midlands to London income for "Several weeks" so why are they part of the 3/4 tph Birmingham-Leamington service all day off peak and not giving the Kidderminster-Birmingham journey to work norning peak a propper service. They have a depot at Stourbridge.

 

[The Planner]

Because Birmingham to London is their lucrative market, Kidderminster to Brum is probably peanuts in comparison and LM are better off dealing with that whilst Chiltern try and keep their core market from moving away.

 

[Zoidberg]

Yes, that's the original bit that's been up since earlier in the week. My guess is that they will change that some time soon when the ticket acceptance stops. Presumably anyone who has pre-booked a ticket will then have to use the replacement bus or get a refund.

Ah, I did not read it that way.

I took it that special mention was being made of Season Tickets to allay any doubts those passengers may have had.

I took the 'Alternative Routes' bit to cover other ticket holders.

Anyway, time will tell if they expect those already holding tickets from Brum to London (like a friend of mine) to use the bus link.