XC want to abandon Doncaster

[Max]

More ways in which Arriva are 'improving' the network

From Dec 2008.
1. CrossCountry would like to operate an 0605 York to Reading via Leeds and Sheffield (depart Leeds 0630).
2. CrossCountry would like to route the 1630 Birmingham to Newcastle (1440 from Reading) via Wakefield Westgate and Leeds rather than via Doncaster.

From Dec 2009 (?)
CrossCountry Trains wishes to route more of its Thames Valley-Newcastle services via Sheffield and Leeds...
From Dec 2009 (?)
CrossCountry Trains wishes to route more of its Thames Valley-Newcastle services via Sheffield and Leeds rather than Doncaster. All (or alternate-hour) Thames Valley-Newcastle services would be routed via Sheffield and Leeds.

http://www.rail-reg.gov.uk/upload/pdf/s18-ecml-XCT_270308.pdf

Sounds like another way in which XC is turning into a commuter operation pretending to be Intercity. With the introduction of the half hourly Sheffield-Leeds fasts from December 08, surely it is not neccessary to route even more trains via Leeds? Doncaster is vital for connections to the ECML and Humberside - why is it that Leeds seems to be the centre of the network all of a sudden? It's such a long diversion off the XC route. This just seems like yet another downgrade, in addition to 'great' ideas such as removing the shop (ie. decreasing comfort to prevent any real investment in carriages being made).

 

[support-uk-rail]

That wasn't on the brochure!

 

[David]

So between ACC and NXEC, basically they have said they can't be bothered with the Southern half of the ECML.

Doncaster will now half very poor connections to the South West, South East and even the North East and Scotland.

All I can say is....

Good luck to Grand Central with your expansion plans, and I hope you insert a few calls south of Doncaster.

 

[1D53]

Good luck getting the paths between South Kirby and York! :roll::roll:

 

[momentum]

Thanks guys, so if im going North from home then I guess its jn33 of the M1.

 

[Nym]

Yeah, so how are pepole from the humberside area gonna get easy access to XC now? the're gonna have to get the hourly 'alphaline' brid - shefeild to catch up with XC or the TPE one. from Brid - Clethorpes you're gonna have a harder time now

 

[martyn29]

not happy with this news

 

[Jordy]

Hope this doesn't go ahead, would be a real loss to available connections at Donny!

 

[me123]

I can see the logic in that many NXEC services already call at Doncaster, which on the surface appears to negate any need for a Doncaster-Scotladn service. Problem is, as you've all said, Doncaster now has extremely few direct services into Scotland. Sure, there's the possiblity of transfer at York/Sheffield/Leeds, but why should people bother?

As a famous "railway country", we seem to be doing a lot to keep passengers off the trains. I really don't know why. I hope the ECML downgrade is temporary and will eventually result in a better service, but I ain't gonna hold my breath on that one.

 

[Jordy]

At the moment it wouldn't be such a problem - but if the new NXEC plans come into play there would be a very poor service from Doncaster to Scotland

 

[Mintona]

Crosscountry would still have an hourly service through Doncaster, the Bristol-Newcastle/Edinburgh is routed that way I believe, though Plymouth-Edinburgh's are routed via Leeds.

 

[Jordy]

Yes...good point!

 

[djw1981]

IIRc this is more a re-balancing - the Leeds services are always very full either side of Leeds, while the Doncaster services do not have such demand. Thus by putting more services via Leeds, then they hope to sort some of their overcrowding with passengerss to/from Leeds.

 

[me123]

Crosscountry would still have an hourly service through Doncaster, the Bristol-Newcastle/Edinburgh is routed that way I believe, though Plymouth-Edinburgh's are routed via Leeds.

IIRc this is more a re-balancing - the Leeds services are always very full either side of Leeds, while the Doncaster services do not have such demand. Thus by putting more services via Leeds, then they hope to sort some of their overcrowding with passengerss to/from Leeds.

Assuming both above posts are true, there is therefore very little reason for all the fuss being made. If XC are as lightly used at Doncaster as is suggested, and services to/from Bristol will still be routed this way, the loss isn't exactly catastrophic.

 

[1D53]

From what I can tell per two hours it'll be 3 via Leeds and 1 via Donny.I don't remain convinced, a fair chunk of passengers leaving Leeds on XC are going to Sheffield or York which will have 4 trains respectively before you even count XC anyway!

 

[Max]

IIRc this is more a re-balancing - the Leeds services are always very full either side of Leeds, while the Doncaster services do not have such demand. Thus by putting more services via Leeds, then they hope to sort some of their overcrowding with passengerss to/from Leeds.

You have to remember though that a good number of these passengers will simply be travelling to/from stations such as Sheffield, Wakefield and York. This is a very poor use of resources considering the high frequency of TPE, Northern and NXEC trains over these routes. XC is supposed to be Intercity! And actually, it is pretty bad. XC are attempting to cut Doncaster's service back to the bare minimum. Additionally, most long distance passengers won't want the hassle of being routed all the way via Leeds - it is likely to increase journey times by a fair amount! Don't they already suffer ridiculous amounts of slack without even more extensions?

 

[1D53]

If XC are as lightly used at Doncaster as is suggested, and services to/from Bristol will still be routed this way, the loss isn't exactly catastrophic.

I would hardly say lightly used, when I see them they always pick up a fair amount even if they aren't as busy as Leeds services. Plus this is the XC connection for most if not all of South and East Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire - thats a fair amount of people

 

[Tom B]

Nooo, as someone who regularly travels between Doncaster and Edinburgh, keep as many trains as possible between the two!

It does seem strange that Leeds is favoured, after all from Doncaster you have connections to the South, (Peterborough, London etc), East (Scunthorpe, Hull, Cleethorpes, Gainsborough, Lincoln) and West (Wakefield, Leeds). It's also easier to change at Doncaster, being a smaller station than the likes of Leeds.

 

[momentum]

I would hardly say lightly used, when I see them they always pick up a fair amount even if they aren't as busy as Leeds services. Plus this is the XC connection for most if not all of South and East Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire - thats a fair amount of people

A large number of people connect into or out of XC or NXEC services at Doncaster.

An example perhaps being me, living in Rotherham, if I go North of Doncaster, most of the time its via the East Coast, as this usualy gives the quickest journey times, and also southbound for that matter.

Do a quick enquiry say Rotherham to London terminals or beyond where travel WOULD be valid via London say to Southend, Canterbury or Brighton, and usualy you are routed via the east Coast.

Perhaps if Rennnaisance start up this proposed Nottingham to Glasgow service, customers from this area may have an alternative.

I for one am far from happy about the proposals of both Tocs.

But living oh so close to jn33 of the M1, anybody wanting a taxi for scotland?

 

[me123]

I would hardly say lightly used, when I see them they always pick up a fair amount even if they aren't as busy as Leeds services. Plus this is the XC connection for most if not all of South and East Yorkshire and North Lincolnshire - thats a fair amount of people

I'll admit that I'm not a regular traveller on the route (OK, I've never been on a XC train through Donny or Leeds) but the evidence I've seen does suggest that the passenger volums for Leeds are greater than those for Donny.

Anyway, in Scotland, we've seen a cutback in services to England since AXC. GLC receoves only 2 return services daily and EDB is served hourly with no trains via the WCML. Compare that to the previous frequency, and you'll see that we've lost many connections from Glasgow in particular. I think that's a bogger loss than 1tph thorugh Doncaster.

 

[djw1981]

Not sure how the Glasgow trains proposal fits, since they would only serve Sheffield and Derby, and also take longer.

I agree that NXEc needs to lose its focus around York though. When the York terminators come in, they could have more services going London - Doncaster - Newcastle/Scotland. This may also reduce congestion at York, although the low speed limit through the station may mean that there is no real time savings.

 

[Tom B]

I thought there were services which ran via the WCML? I've certainly seen a fair few Voyagers through Curriehill...

 

[djw1981]

I'll admit that I'm not a regular traveller on the route (OK, I've never been on a XC train through Donny or Leeds) but the evidence I've seen does suggest that the passenger volums for Leeds are greater than those for Donny.

Anyway, in Scotland, we've seen a cutback in services to England since AXC. GLC receoves only 2 return services daily and EDB is served hourly with no trains via the WCML. Compare that to the previous frequency, and you'll see that we've lost many connections from Glasgow in particular. I think that's a bogger loss than 1tph thorugh Doncaster.

The WC services were transfered to VWC and TPE. The VWC frequency is IIRc the same as VXC. This also still allows the option of changing at Stafford, which avoids the need to change onto XC at BNS, which is always a good thing.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I thought there were services which ran via the WCML? I've certainly seen a fair few Voyagers through Curriehill...

VWC not AXC though!

 

[1D53]

I think that's a bogger loss than 1tph thorugh Doncaster.

It probably is a bigger loss for you but of course the same applies in reverse, the residents of Donny and South & East Yorkshire couldn't give a flying

about the residents of Glasgow.

 

[djw1981]

Anyway, in Scotland, we've seen a cutback in services to England since AXC. GLC receoves only 2 return services daily and EDB is served hourly with no trains via the WCML. Compare that to the previous frequency, and you'll see that we've lost many connections from Glasgow in particular. I think that's a bogger loss than 1tph thorugh Doncaster.

Connections from Glasgow....
every 15min to EDb then an easy transfer to AXC / NXEC.
NXEc every 2hrs from GLC to EDB, NCL, YRK (& occasionally DON)
VWC to Birmingham and the XC network
TPE to Manchester and the XC network

All (except TPE) on high speed modern stock. The Doncaster connections are on pacers and such like which take people away from their destinations to change and then return, almost past their starting point.

 

[me123]

I thought there were services which ran via the WCML? I've certainly seen a fair few Voyagers through Curriehill...

Those would be the Glasgow services, which run twice a day to/from Edinburgh via Carstairs. Both services are 221s normally. There's also the Birmingham Virgin Voyagers which at speed could easily be mistaken for a XC given that the liveries are currently identical (with only the TOC name to distinguish), and a more freequent service on Sunday for some reason (Perhaps crew training?).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It probably is a bigger loss for you but of course the same applies in reverse, the residents of Donny and South & East Yorkshire couldn't give a flying

about the residents of Glasgow.

I'm sure those that travel to the city will do

I appreciate that Glasgow has better connections that Doncaster, I just don't remember such a fuss being made on here when XC almost axed Glasgow altogether! The valuable links have really been lost, in that journeys do take considerably longer now due to the necessity to travel via the ECML or to change on the WCML (which until December 2008 will still not be the most fantastic option).

 

[djw1981]

and a more freequent service on Sunday for some reason (Perhaps crew training?).

Or because there is much more leisure travel on a Sunday, and the NX service to Glasgow on A Sunday is always the first casualty of engineering work. IIRC XC's heaviest loading is Sunday afternoon. Also with the FSR service being only half hourly and 3cars, there is a larger 'available' market between EDB & GLC.

 

[support-uk-rail]

What's the reason behind these cuts? Financial instability?

Haha. I remember watching that programme; UK'S WORST, they did a series of the UK's WORST everything, fish and chips, curries, hotels, and Arriva won the award for worst rail company.

Arriva are a HUGE company, yet they always go on about "financial difficulties" or "cancellations for the greater good in terms of payment".

Virgin got a lot wrong, but give it back to them I say....

I vote we either re-nationalise some stuff or give in to Branson

Haz.

PS - Jordy, nice pic of that HST, can you give me some details so I can research?

 

[me123]

Or because there is much more leisure travel on a Sunday, and the NX service to Glasgow on A Sunday is always the first casualty of engineering work. IIRC XC's heaviest loading is Sunday afternoon. Also with the FSR service being only half hourly and 3cars, there is a larger 'available' market between EDB & GLC.

Forgot about the heavy XC Sunday loadings. Still, NXEC are cancelling Saturday services ATM; a slightly unusual strategy but I know and see why (the work is done on Saturday to allow the engineers to work elsewhere on Sunday IIRC).

The reason I suggested crew training in particular is because I believe that some services are diverted via local lines that day? I have a feeling that the empty Shotts route is used at least once on a Sunday, as is the Hamilton circle, although I don't know the numbers/facts with this.

 

[Tom B]

Ah, well I blame the fact that when I see them I'm looking down from the distance of the woods at Riccarton!

Some of them could .