Class 458/5

[RobShipway]

458503 and another 458/5 where being used to do extra runs to Twickenham for the Rugby Match.

 

[randompixel]

Not sure it's the number of seats that makes such a difference, given that a 450 and a 5458/5 have virtually the same number of seats. It's the amount of standing and circulation space that makes the difference.

I can only think they're dispersed differently down the train then as my experience at the back is always as above

 

[Goldfish62]

I can only think they're dispersed differently down the train then as my experience at the back is always as above

That's probably because the two rear coaches are off the platform at Feltham and people don't walk through.

 

[SWT_USER]

That's probably because the two rear coaches are off the platform at Feltham and people don't walk through.

They do. Always a large group of people waiting to board at the rear of the 8th coach and walk through on the 07:46

 

[RobShipway]

I must confess I always get on at the first two coaches when I get on a train into London from Martins Heron as it is near to where the entrance to the station is and likewise always get on the rear coach on the return journey as it is the nearest to the exit from the station.

 

[hassaanhc]

There is an off peak ECS diagram in the system most weekdays which makes three trips to Reading and back and is being used for 458/5 testing. They make a striking sight as they go past, especially the middle day ones when the lovely sun we have had this week reflects off of the polished blue bodysides.

Timings below, with times at Bracknell for reference.

5C23 0901 Wimbledon Park Sidings - Reading 1045 (BCE 1026)
5C24 1051 Reading - Staines Up Loop 1145 (BCE 1113)
5C25 1154 Staines Up Loop - Reading 1245 (BCE 1226)
5C26 1251 Reading - Staines Up Loop 1345 (BCE 1313)
5C27 1424 Staines Up Loop - Reading 1515 (BCE 1456)
5C28 1521 Reading - Wimbledon Park Sidings 1754 (BCE 1541)

I agree. They really do show how faded the paintwork on the 450s has become, something you only realise with the shiny blue here. However I still think that the windows should have a black surround. The roof would also look good in black, like on the 455s, although it would probably absorb a lot of heat in the summer and contribute to why they get so hot inside :? (London Buses specify a white roof on vehicles in order to reflect heat).

 

[gswindale]

I must confess I always get on at the first two coaches when I get on a train into London from Martins Heron as it is near to where the entrance to the station is and likewise always get on the rear coach on the return journey as it is the nearest to the exit from the station.

Agreed off-peak; but when I was catching the 07:35 departure I tended to try and get on in carriage 7 as there was more chance of a seat there than at the front.

Returning was a case of as close to first class as possible if walking home or towards the front of the next coach if getting a lift from the car park.

Would guess that the same locations would be best when the 10-cars arrive as I guess they'll extend at the Bracknell end of the platforms?

 

[Juniper Driver]

Pretty certain I have a desiro down to Reading today.

I was a bit slow here but noticed (or read somewhere) that the first six ex-gat have no panto well thingy.

The former Class 460 units (458531-458536) have ribbon glazed windows, smaller windows on passenger doors, and did not have the recess for a pantograph, preventing the future conversion to AC overhead power, because the Class 460s were built specifically for Gatwick Express, and thus cascades to AC-electrified routes were never envisioned in the original specification. The former Class 458/0 units (458501-458530) retains original window frames, larger windows on passenger doors, and the recess for the pantograph on PTSO vehicle, allowing for a future conversion to AC overhead power. However, an additional carriage from former Class 460 units retains ribbon glazed windows and smaller windows on passenger doors.

Here.Maybe useful for someone but I bet you lot knew this anyways.

 

[hassaanhc]

Pretty certain I have a desiro down to Reading today.

I was a bit slow here but noticed (or read somewhere) that the first six ex-gat have no panto well thingy.

The former Class 460 units (458531-458536) have ribbon glazed windows, smaller windows on passenger doors, and did not have the recess for a pantograph, preventing the future conversion to AC overhead power, because the Class 460s were built specifically for Gatwick Express, and thus cascades to AC-electrified routes were never envisioned in the original specification. The former Class 458/0 units (458501-458530) retains original window frames, larger windows on passenger doors, and the recess for the pantograph on PTSO vehicle, allowing for a future conversion to AC overhead power. However, an additional carriage from former Class 460 units retains ribbon glazed windows and smaller windows on passenger doors.

Here.Maybe useful for someone but I bet you lot knew this anyways.

I remember reading that too, and it was the first time I discovered the different door window size! :P Mind you, it was only last week I noticed the white 458 livery didn't have the orange cantrail stripe and accompanying "Danger: Overhead Live Wires" stickers! (Subsequently discovered that to be the case with the 444s and 450s too).
The presence of the extra 460 coach probably means an end to the dual voltage passive provision for the 458s?

 

[Goldfish62]

They do. Always a large group of people waiting to board at the rear of the 8th coach and walk through on the 07:46

OK fine. But the point was that it was claimed that there were more seats available by the time the train got to Whitton than on a 450. This is not possible as a 10 car 458/5 doesn't have any more seats than an 8 car 450. That's all I was saying.:roll:

 

[RobShipway]

I remember reading that too, and it was the first time I discovered the different door window size! :P Mind you, it was only last week I noticed the white 458 livery didn't have the orange cantrail stripe and accompanying "Danger: Overhead Live Wires" stickers! (Subsequently discovered that to be the case with the 444s and 450s too).
The presence of the extra 460 coach probably means an end to the dual voltage passive provision for the 458s?

How would adding a 460 coach to a 458/0 mean that it is no longer a dual voltage train?

As with the class 378's where coaches have been added, admittedly new coaches the software can be adapted I would suspect that the 458/0 would still be dual voltage.

My only thought is though, since the 4580/0 have a pantograph well, should they not become 458/6's as they can be adapted to be dual voltage?

The other question, could one of the remaining four carriages if they are intact be used to see if a pantograph can be added to the former Class 460, 458/5's at all?

 

[Domh245]

Seeing as usually all that happens with an AC overhead system is the pan collects the current, transforms it down to about 750V and then rectifies it so that you end up with a 750DC Bus line, there is no reason for the 458/0 conversions not to be convertible to AC, however the 460 conversions would not be convertible easily, as they lack the pantograph well. To be honest though, given their problematic design nature, how long it has taken to do this refurbishment, and the current prospects of wiring the windsor lines to 25kV AC overhead, I very much doubt that we will see the 458s get fitted with a pantograph.

*edit* Why would SWT need to renumber the 30 or so units that will have a pantograph well to distinguish them from those without, especially as diagramming wise, it'd make no difference whatsoever, and as I have pointed out above, is almost certainly not going to happen.

 

[Driver@swt]

The AC related stuff is removed from /5s.
The /0s have AC or DC select in the cab, the /5s have had it removed.

 

[Domh245]

The AC related stuff is removed from /5s.

Out of interest, other than the mode select switch in the cab, what exactly constitutes the AC equipment that is being removed from the /0s?

 

[Juniper Driver]

I noticed the 458/5s didn't come out to play yesterday.I had 450029+450035 down the Reading road which was a bit strange but booked on the diagram.Timings were tight plus timings were tight on my 1S?? instead of 2S?? headcode (99)Weybridge with 455913.

 

[TEW]

They're normally 1Sxx on a Sunday because the run to Woking. 1Sxx is Woking-Waterloo via Hounslow. 2Sxx is Weybridge-Waterloo via Hounslow. The services were diverted to Weybridge yesterday because of the Woking engineering works.

 

[Juniper Driver]

They're normally 1Sxx on a Sunday because the run to Woking. 1Sxx is Woking-Waterloo via Hounslow. 2Sxx is Weybridge-Waterloo via Hounslow. The services were diverted to Weybridge yesterday because of the Woking engineering works.

Oh of course,I forgot.Doh.

 

[infobleep]

Noticed the 8.36 Guildford to Waterloo was a 450 today. Was very tempted to miss the 8.20 stopping service and catch it instead but I didn't. May be it's regularly going to continuing being a 450, with the recent change back to being a 455 just temporary. I kind of thought perhaps there was enough 458/5s in stock to revert back to 455s permanently. Perhaps not. Good news for Cobham line passengers at least.

 

[WarrenTManager]

8510 with 74405 as the ex-460 vehicle arrived down at Wimbledon today. I understand 8504 should join the active fleet in a couple of days

 

[RobShipway]

I noticed yesterday evening that the 17:40 arrival at Martins Heron on route to Reading was a class 455 which I would have thought was not a good train to be using in the peak rush hour due to the lack of toilets.

Earlier in the day I had seen some class 458/0, but I guess that we getting down to the last few to be converted?

 

[SWT_USER]

The useless bits of junk just don't work :cry:

07.23 Windsor to Waterloo short yet again this morning.

 

[infobleep]

I noticed yesterday evening that the 17:40 arrival at Martins Heron on route to Reading was a class 455 which I would have thought was not a good train to be using in the peak rush hour due to the lack of toilets.

Earlier in the day I had seen some class 458/0, but I guess that we getting down to the last few to be converted?

Well they run them from Guildford during peak rush hour and I can't see what the difference is myself between the lines.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Out of the ones yet to be converted or are being converted now, how many are ex original SWTs units and how many are the ex Gatwick Express (Darth Vader) units?

 

[D365]

Out of the ones yet to be converted or are being converted now, how many are ex original SWTs units and how many are the ex Gatwick Express (Darth Vader) units?

Units (45)8531-8536 are made up entirely of ex-GX Class 460 coaches. They were completed first since they were out of use already and could cover for the SWT 458s when undergoing conversion, though as has been covered here, their re-introduction has been troubled...

 

[swt_passenger]

Earlier in the day I had seen some class 458/0, but I guess that we getting down to the last few to be converted?

We certainly aren't down to the last few to be converted, do you not remember this conversation from last week, when it was pointed out there were about 25 ex 460 cars still to be inserted into 458/0 units, hence 25 (out of 30) still being lengthened or yet to be lengthened:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showpost.php?p=2102828&postcount=2128

 

[Juniper Driver]

The useless bits of junk just don't work :cry:

07.23 Windsor to Waterloo short yet again this morning.

http://wltmauc.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/ugly-duckling-eton-junipers.html

The swan has turned into the ugly duckling again.

 

[samuelmorris]

I agreed with that judgment at first, but having seen them in the flesh think they look considerably better than the 458/0s - especially in side profile and with the arguably smarter blue-based livery. I hope they keep them clean and tidy on the outside, SWT stock usually looks fairly respectable on the outside when I see it. Still, it does perhaps look like we're set for another repeat of the troublesome first few years of the stock.

 

[Juniper Driver]

I agreed with that judgment at first, but having seen them in the flesh think they look considerably better than the 458/0s - especially in side profile and with the arguably smarter blue-based livery. I hope they keep them clean and tidy on the outside, SWT stock usually looks fairly respectable on the outside when I see it. Still, it does perhaps look like we're set for another repeat of the troublesome first few years of the stock.

Actually my Swan turns into Ugly duckling again refers to their performance reliability wise.Like in the early days when they were very unreliable but with a lot of tinkering by Wimbledon became one of the most reliable class of units going.I actually like the look of them.

 

[RobShipway]

Actually my Swan turns into Ugly duckling again refers to their performance reliability wise.Like in the early days when they were very unreliable but with a lot of tinkering by Wimbledon became one of the most reliable class of units going.I actually like the look of them.

Well, if it is the ex class 460's that are causing the issue then surely the Wimbledon Depot needs to do the same tinkering on the 458'5's as they did on the 458/0's or is it not that simple?

 

[Goldfish62]

Actually my Swan turns into Ugly duckling again refers to their performance reliability wise.Like in the early days when they were very unreliable but with a lot of tinkering by Wimbledon became one of the most reliable class of units going.I actually like the look of them.

One of the issues in the longer term could be the number of maintenance spares. At their height only 24 of 30 458/0s were diagrammed on weekdays, leaving an unnaturally high 6 spares. I believe the 458/5s are pllanned to cover some 33-34 diagrams on weekdays, ie more like the ratio with the 450s, so I wonder how they'll cope.