Class 458/5

[Manchester77]

As we approach May we approach the month in which the new hybrid Class 458 units are delivered and enter service. I'd imagine that Mays issue of modern railways will have some images of them and with articles like this surely it won't be long until we see the finished product compete with its 450 style front end?
Article http://www.rail.co/2013/04/19/first-class-4585-nears-completion/

The Wabtec works in Doncaster and Loughborough are currently refurbishing and converting 60 Porterbrook-owned former Gatwick Express class 460s in order to provide additional capacity on the Windsor line from Hounslow, Weybridge, Reading and Windsor.

Any predictions on when they come to London and entry to service?

 

[tsr]

Just a pedantic side note...

The article is incorrect in that they were originally geared for 125mph. I believe it was 100mph.

 

[pbaran]

More images here:

http://antony-christie.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/doncaster-wabtec-class-4585-conversion.html

I am curious to see how the 'Desiro' front end will look.

 

[rebmcr]

What's going to happen to the four spare 460 driving cars?

Edit: Ah, I see it's in the article.

 

[tsr]

What's going to happen to the four spare 460 driving cars?

Edit: Ah, I see it's in the article.

Contrary to what is written, I have heard that just one driving car is going to be scrapped, but that is pure rumour and I can't guarantee this. This really changes the ratio around - it is supposedly to ensure better flows of spares and ensure quicker repairs after any incidents, though as much would seem obvious. I may be wrong here, and am willing to be corrected.

 

[Manchester77]

Are the 460 luggage cars being converted or stripped for spares and scrapped?

 

[455driver]

4 converted and the other 4 stripped/scrapped.

 

[Goatboy]

Will these be the newest passenger cars to have ever been scrapped?

Excluding accidents.

 

[swt_passenger]

Contrary to what is written, I have heard that just one driving car is going to be scrapped, but that is pure rumour and I can't guarantee this.

The usual reason given for the four (luggage) driving cars not being used is that they'd have no passenger doors, with them being the donor vehicles to provide the second sets of doors in the four that are being kept. The overall numbers don't need them anyway, with only 60 of the 64 vehicles ever being accounted for in the work...

The article states 38 units, which is clearly a typo as there aren't enough carriages overall, it's definitely only 36.

 

[Matt Taylor]

There have been unforseen problems with the new cabs and my understanding is that the first unit won't be around until August.

 

[Manchester77]

^ where did you hear that? Hopefully there will be some kind of update in Mays issue of Modern Railways

 

[455driver]

There was talk of this on company days, the luggage van conversions are running late as well.

 

[bb21]

^ where did you hear that? Hopefully there will be some kind of update in Mays issue of Modern Railways

Considering who he works for, I would be quite confident in his words on this matter.

 

[Manchester77]

I didn't know he was a SWT employee sorry..

 

[ChampsRacing]

We had a work bulletin out in march giving us an update, they are currently 8-12 weeks late at last report.

 

[Matt Taylor]

Yes, it was in the latest HLOS update.

 

[David Goddard]

Just a pedantic side note...

The article is incorrect in that they were originally geared for 125mph. I believe it was 100mph.

Platform 5 book states 100mph for both 458s and 460s. I was suprised on reading the article that they are being regeared to 75mph, as this would surely consign them to being inner suburban units only (and therefore one would expect the paint job to be red (a la 455s) as opposed to blue (a la 450s)

 

[455driver]

They are going to be used on suburban routes, Weybridge, Windsor and Houslows mainly, they dont need to do 90mph (maximum speed as written in the cabs of the 458s). As for the colour they are air conditioned so blue seems more appropriate.
Whether the gearing is altered or its just a software rewrite we will have to wait and see, which one is cheaper?

 

[David Goddard]

They are going to be used on suburban routes, Weybridge, Windsor and Houslows mainly, they dont need to do 90mph (maximum speed as written in the cabs of the 458s). As for the colour they are air conditioned so blue seems more appropriate.
Whether the gearing is altered or its just a software rewrite we will have to wait and see, which one is cheaper?

Thanks for this- makes great sense, and we finally get to have 450s back on the Reading trains!

 

[Harbon 1]

Just a pedantic side note...

The article is incorrect in that they were originally geared for 125mph. I believe it was 100mph.

Well it also says 60 former class 460s

 

[swt_passenger]

Whether the gearing is altered or its just a software rewrite we will have to wait and see, which one is cheaper?

The explanation in Feb 2012 Modern Railways article (by Ian Walmsley of Porterbrook) was that the motors don't run fast enough for their forced ventilation to work effectively - so they DO intend to physically re-gear the drives so that the motors spin much faster at normal line speeds.

 

[Chris125]

Ian Walmsley also mentioned in that article that they were geared for 125mph as it gave them slightly better performance on Gatwick Express services, presumably as low speed acceleration isn't so important on such services.

Chris

 

[Lampshade]

Thanks for this- makes great sense, and we finally get to have 450s back on the Reading trains!

458s are better

 

[Pumbaa]

458s are better

Very much so! Still need to scratch in my last few over the next couple of months!

 

[455driver]

Make sure you dont scratch them once they are repainted, SWT would be upset!

 

[Brian Aylott]

Some appear to be confused with current changes to the 458 and 460s
The position is:-
460s - If the owners, builders operators and Wabtec all say 125mph (and they did 16/4) I would be inclined to accept they were geared for125mph
Regearing 458/5s to 75mph for services with frequent stops and where the possible top speed is nowhere near 100mph (never mind 125mph) must be the right decision
Corrosion is the cause of the delays but we were assured 16/4 that the problem is round the windows and not the front ends
The delay means that the current planned delivery of the first 2x5-car 458/5s to SWT is late May/June(2013!)
All 458/5s will have 458 cabs with 'normal' gangways - they will not be Desiro ones
Brian

 

[swt_passenger]

All 458/5s will have 458 cabs with 'normal' gangways - they will not be Desiro ones...

How do you define a 'normal gangway' though - like those on Bombardier Electro/Turbostars? Then they aren't really much different to Desiro gangways (other than those on the 380s).

However Modern Railways only originally reported Desiro style 'gangways and couplers' but not Desiro style cabs. Perhaps earlier posters have been confusing cabs and gangways...

There's another view on the same story here:

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2013/04/20-unwanted-unreliable--but-these.html

 

[455driver]

The 458 cabs will be altered to make them compatible with Desiro stock in emergencies, IE Dellner 12 couplings and fixed gangways, they will not be fully compatible and wont normally work together.

 

[jopsuk]

Minor point, but given the sort of services these are for, does the blue livery mark a change in policy/ I'd have thought the red, as with the 455s, would be more appropriate- aren't these for "inner suburban"?

 

[455driver]

It might be to do with the fact they are air-con fitted, or the fact they are replacing the 450s which are blue, or the fact the blue paint was cheaper/ easier to apply than the red.

I will ask around.