No Welsh Trains to Manchester Airport (Now approved until December 2017)

[berneyarms]

With respect, the discussion about people flying out of Manchester and Liverpool airports in the manner that is being carried out above is pointless.

They are completely different operations.

Liverpool is served by low cost airlines offering point to point services to a much more limited number of destinations.

Manchester airport offers far better global connectivity than any other airport in the north, be it through low cost airline point to point flights, or via direct flights or connections through other hub airports (such as Heathrow, Dublin, Amsterdam, Paris, Istanbul, Copenhagen, Zurich and Frankfurt) via legacy airlines.

There is a huge difference between the two.

The point that everyone (other than jcollins seems to grasp) is that as such, Manchester Airport needs decent rail connections across the north, with (and this is the important part) regular direct services from the main centres. As I said above, every time a change of train is required, people (and in particular those travelling with luggage and children) are less likely to use the train, hence a regular direct service is preferable to one that involves a change.

 

[northwichcat]

The point that everyone (other than jcollins seems to grasp) is that as such, Manchester Airport needs decent rail connections across the north, with (and this is the important part) regular direct services from the main centres.

I get that Manchester Airport needs good transport links. However, not all the arguments put forward for regular North Wales to Manchester Airport services are good.

For instance, everyone's seemed to ignored that there's a guaranteed same platform interchange available at Manchester Piccadilly even without a direct service. Places such as Marple, Glossop, New Mills and Macclesfield don't have that luxury.

Another thing that's been ignored is how often do people in North Wales travel to the Airport. Someone in Warrington might make a return trip to the Airport 235 times a year for work and once a year for a holiday, while someone in Flint may make only one return trip per year for a holiday.

Also everyone seems to arguing the existing through service is useless. As there are overnight arrivals at Manchester a 05:33 departure from the Airport could be useful for some people. There is also a daily National Express service from Holyhead to Manchester Airport with a call at Bangor, so the rail service is not the only option.

A regular bus service for most of the day like this: http://www.ghacoaches.co.uk/timetables/200-2/ may look better on paper but there's plenty of pre-10am flight departures it doesn't allow you to catch if you use that service to get to the Airport.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There are some daily National Express coach services direct from Chester to Manchester Airport that have direct access to the bus/coach interchange there.

 

[berneyarms]

I get that Manchester Airport needs good transport links. However, not all the arguments put forward for regular North Wales to Manchester Airport services are good.

For instance, everyone's seemed to ignored that there's a guaranteed same platform interchange available at Manchester Piccadilly even without a direct service. Places such as Marple, Glossop, New Mills and Macclesfield don't have that luxury.

Another thing that's been ignored is how often do people in North Wales travel to the Airport. Someone in Warrington might make a return trip to the Airport 235 times a year for work and once a year for a holiday, while someone in Flint may make only one return trip per year for a holiday.

Also everyone seems to arguing the existing through service is useless. As there are overnight arrivals at Manchester a 05:33 departure from the Airport could be useful for some people. There is also a daily National Express service from Holyhead to Manchester Airport with a call at Bangor, so the rail service is not the only option.

A regular bus service for most of the day like this: http://www.ghacoaches.co.uk/timetables/200-2/ may look better on paper but there's plenty of pre-10am flight departures it doesn't allow you to catch if you use that service to get to the Airport.

I'm not arguing that it's useless - just that perhaps more (such as every two hours) during the day wouldn't go astray.

I just think an opportunity is being missed.

I get the same platform change argument as well, but at the risk of sounding like a broken record, I'm going to repeat myself.

Every time a change of train is required, people (and in particular those travelling with luggage and children) are less likely to use the train, hence a regular direct service is preferable to one that involves a change.

 

[Greybeard33]

Have ATW ever applied for such paths?

If they wanted to they could apply to operate a South Wales-Manchester Airport-Manchester-Warrington-North Wales. That way they aren't asking for additional services through Slade Lane Junction as they're asking for a Wilmslow-Airport-Piccadilly instead of a Wilmslow-Stockport-Piccadilly one.

I believe the ATW franchise agreement requires the S Wales services to call at Stockport. If they were rerouted via the Airport, there would be only one fast train per hour between Stockport and Crewe.

 

[northwichcat]

I'm not arguing that it's useless - just that perhaps more (such as every two hours) during the day wouldn't go astray.

I just think an opportunity is being missed.

I should have said 'some people' not 'everyone'

I think ATW need to promote their limited through service and connections. Earlier in the thread people were implying there isn't a North Wales to Airport service at all. Better promotion may increase ticket sales for the Airport and then it'll give ATW a better case when applying for more Airport paths.

At the moment ATW have only been refused more paths until the December 2017 Northern/TPE provision is finalised. They could finish up resubmitting their application next year and finding Network Rail give approval.

I believe the ATW franchise agreement requires the S Wales services to call at Stockport. If they were rerouted via the Airport, there would be only one fast train per hour between Stockport and Crewe.

Yes they would have to apply for a revision. However, it's possible it won't be rejected given Virgin started running an hourly Piccadily-Stockport-Crewe service since the ATW franchise agreement was written and it may reduce the amount of local commuter traffic ATW carry on the Manchester-Crewe line.

 

[radamfi]

You can't have direct services from everywhere to everywhere. So the best you can do is to make connections as attractive as possible. For example by having well planned connections. The Swiss have turned this into an art form, which is probably one of the reasons why they have such a high per capita train usage. The alternative to well planned connections is to run trains very frequently.

 

[chorleyjeff]

If you say so!
However I know plenty locally that are willing to accept it because taking the car or a taxi is much too expensive.
And to be honest, all the connections are easy.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Even with your smillie I find that quite offensive.

Spending millions of pounds on in Wales in a language not used by most Welsh people offends me.
As would having signs written in Lancs ( proper geograpical County Palatine ) dialect that millions of us would understand

 

[northwichcat]

Spending millions of pounds on in Wales in a language not used by most Welsh people offends me.

Neither the Irish Rail or Scotrail sites appear to have a local language version. In the case of Irish Rail it seems providing the operator name in two languages is sufficient.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes they would have to apply for a revision. However, it's possible it won't be rejected given Virgin started running an hourly Piccadily-Stockport-Crewe service since the ATW franchise agreement was written and it may reduce the amount of local commuter traffic ATW carry on the Manchester-Crewe line.

Would diverting the ATW south Wales service via Manchester Airport increase the journey time between Cardiff and Manchester Piccadilly? And what is the potential market for international connections available at Manchester Airport versus the market for Stockport and connections there to destinations such as Sheffield and Nottingham?

And I don't think anyone's answered my earlier question (bottom of page 2) over whether the W&B franchise will have paths every half hour between Chester and Manchester via Warrington all day (they currently only use both paths at peak times) or will the new Northern semi fast from Chester via Warrington BQ to Victoria/Calder Valley take one of those two paths?

 

[merlodlliw]

Spending millions of pounds on in Wales in a language not used by most Welsh people offends me.
As would having signs written in Lancs ( proper geograpical County Palatine ) dialect that millions of us would understand

I dont want to get involved in this but every statutory organisation in Wales in receipt of WG funding,this includes transport must produce a bi lingual version.
The Gov of Wales act puts English and Welsh on equal footing.

 

[Cheshire Rover]

Would diverting the ATW south Wales service via Manchester Airport increase the journey time between Cardiff and Manchester Piccadilly? And what is the potential market for international connections available at Manchester Airport versus the market for Stockport and connections there to destinations such as Sheffield and Nottingham?

And I don't think anyone's answered my earlier question (bottom of page 2) over whether the W&B franchise will have paths every half hour between Chester and Manchester via Warrington all day (they currently only use both paths at peak times) or will the new Northern semi fast from Chester via Warrington BQ to Victoria/Calder Valley take one of those two paths?

Or will the Ellesmere Port to MCV take the 2 peak slots currently used by ATW?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

And I don't think anyone's answered my earlier question (bottom of page 2) over whether the W&B franchise will have paths every half hour between Chester and Manchester via Warrington all day (they currently only use both paths at peak times) or will the new Northern semi fast from Chester via Warrington BQ to Victoria/Calder Valley take one of those two paths?

The franchise agreement that I have a copy of (the original 2003 one) only talks in terms of 1tph Manchester-Llandudno and an extra train eastbound in am peak, westbound in the evening, all stopping at all stations west of Newton-le-Willows.
The new Northern service can't override that without WG/ATW agreement, in particular you couldn't replace the peak services with limited stops.
But that is also when the Northern services are planned go to Ellesmere Port instead of Chester.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Or will the Ellesmere Port to MCV take the 2 peak slots currently used by ATW?

What are the two peak time slots do ATW have at Manchester Victoria (MCV) that you state above?

 

[Cheshire Rover]

What are the two peak time slots do ATW have at Manchester Victoria (MCV) that you state above?

They don't.
In the new Northern tender doc there are two new routes from E Port to MCV in the peak, one each way. I am suggesting that the paths currently used by ATW to MAN could go to Northern. That would be 0712 ex Chester and 1721 ex MAN at the moment. Only speculating mind.

 

[PHILIPE]

Would diverting the ATW south Wales service via Manchester Airport increase the journey time between Cardiff and Manchester Piccadilly? And what is the potential market for international connections available at Manchester Airport versus the market for Stockport and connections there to destinations such as Sheffield and Nottingham?

And I don't think anyone's answered my earlier question (bottom of page 2) over whether the W&B franchise will have paths every half hour between Chester and Manchester via Warrington all day (they currently only use both paths at peak times) or will the new Northern semi fast from Chester via Warrington BQ to Victoria/Calder Valley take one of those two paths?

We have already discussed quite recently the possibility of ATW South Wales to Manchester running via Manchester Airport and this would definitely add journey time to the journey which would hardly be worth it when, I doubt, any people south of Shrewsbury would not use Manchester to fly.
Regarding Wales & Borders Chester and Manchester there are no definite details yet available re the new franchise.

 

[northwichcat]

We have already discussed quite recently the possibility of ATW South Wales to Manchester running via Manchester Airport and this would definitely add journey time to the journey

Virgin timetable one of their Manchester services to go via the Styal line. That takes 35 minutes compared to 35 via Stockport. However, it doesn't do the Airport reversal or a Wilmslow chord.

Keeping the Wilmslow call and going via Styal will probably add 2 minutes to the time, while doing the Airport reversal will take around 10 minutes, so around 12 minutes extra.

I doubt, any people south of Shrewsbury would not use Manchester to fly.

But then Birmingham has less flights than Manchester. :roll:

 

[Greybeard33]

Virgin timetable one of their Manchester services to go via the Styal line. That takes 35 minutes compared to 35 via Stockport. However, it doesn't do the Airport reversal or a Wilmslow chord.

Keeping the Wilmslow call and going via Styal will probably add 2 minutes to the time, while doing the Airport reversal will take around 10 minutes, so around 12 minutes extra.

But if the S Wales service was linked to the N Wales service at Piccadilly, as you suggested, there would be very little recovery time, either at Piccadilly or the Airport. Surely ATW, NR and the DfT would consider that a through service all the way from N Wales to S Wales via Manchester would be far too prone to delay/disruption?

 

[northwichcat]

But if the S Wales service was linked to the N Wales service at Piccadilly, as you suggested, there would be very little recovery time, either at Piccadilly or the Airport. Surely ATW, NR and the DfT would consider that a through service all the way from N Wales to S Wales via Manchester would be far too prone to delay/disruption?

Looking at the actual departure times of a few South Wales services I think lack of recovery time between Carmarthen and Manchester is an issue as a lot seem to run late and trains don't stop at stations for more than 1-3 minutes. An extended dwell time at Crewe would probably be beneficial even without any route changes.

 

[ivanhoe]

Virgin timetable one of their Manchester services to go via the Styal line. That takes 35 minutes compared to 35 via Stockport. However, it doesn't do the Airport reversal or a Wilmslow chord.

Keeping the Wilmslow call and going via Styal will probably add 2 minutes to the time, while doing the Airport reversal will take around 10 minutes, so around 12 minutes extra.



But then Birmingham has less flights than Manchester. :roll:

Birmingham has enough destinations to meet the demand for most of the Midlands. Being well connected to Amsterdam, Paris, Frankfurt , Dublin and Dubai gives you plenty of options without the need of even considering Manchester plus when you get into the South Midlands , then Heathrow is just as near as Manchester.

 

[Rhydgaled]

In the new Northern tender doc there are two new routes from E Port to MCV in the peak, one each way. I am suggesting that the paths currently used by ATW to MAN could go to Northern. That would be 0712 ex Chester and 1721 ex MAN at the moment. Only speculating mind.

Regarding Wales & Borders Chester and Manchester there are no definite details yet available re the new franchise.

Thanks both, the answer then is "we don't know".

We have already discussed quite recently the possibility of ATW South Wales to Manchester running via Manchester Airport and this would definitely add journey time to the journey which would hardly be worth it when, I doubt, any people south of Shrewsbury would not use Manchester to fly.

Thanks for that also. The extra journey time doesn't help the idea of linking the N. Wales - MAN and MAN - S. Wales services to enable links to Manchester airport.

But if the S Wales service was linked to the N Wales service at Piccadilly, as you suggested, there would be very little recovery time, either at Piccadilly or the Airport.

Actually, given that we don't know if W&B can keep the other Chester-MAN path, there could be a rather long wait at MAN as the N. Wales service and S. Wales service are in MAN at rather different points of the hour.

 

[PHILIPE]

Wales and Borders. A bit behind the times !!!

 

[northwichcat]

Actually, given that we don't know if W&B can keep the other Chester-MAN path, there could be a rather long wait at MAN as the N. Wales service and S. Wales service are in MAN at rather different points of the hour.

Service pattern revisions may not work unless the timetable is rewritten.

For instance, 20:32 Manchester Airport to Chester via Warrington works with a Piccadilly arrival at 20:48.

Trying to start the 16:50 Manchester Airport to Llandudno service at Manchester Airport at 16:32 wouldn't work due to the 16:33 Airport-Middlesbrough service, while an earlier departure time from the Airport could result in to train being held at a red signal until the 16:29 Airport-Blackpool (which stops at Heald Green) departs platform 14 at Piccadilly.

So for a proper Airport service to/from North Wales it could mean a full timetable rewrite is required.

 

[edwin_m]

Looking at the actual departure times of a few South Wales services I think lack of recovery time between Carmarthen and Manchester is an issue as a lot seem to run late and trains don't stop at stations for more than 1-3 minutes. An extended dwell time at Crewe would probably be beneficial even without any route changes.

The layout at Crewe is a real pain for operating this service. They can only use platforms 5 or 6 in both directions, which are also the best platforms for stopping WCML trains to use. So a longer wait by this train would be very disruptive.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Bradford, Halifax & Rochdale probably provide more passengers for Manchester Airport than Chester & North Wales and also need the links to Piccadilly provided by the Ordsall curve.

Having said that both areas should have direct services. Could North Wales services travel via Crewe instead of Piccadilly, or would running right across the WCML cause too much disruption?

 

[craigybagel]

Lots of people from South Wales and Herefordshire use Manchester Airport, connecting at Wilmslow, there is definitely a surprisingly large market for it. The connection isn't as unreliable as it has been in the past - for whatever reasons the signallers at Crewe are now more likely to hold the Airport service and have it run behind the ATW as it's booked to, rather than sending it out religiously at xx:33 even if the ATW was already sat in Platform 6.

Diversions via the Styal line are actually slightly quicker than the mainline via Stockport, so long as you get a good path. The first few ATW services on a Sunday go that way, and they don't take nearly as long as they are booked to do. That said, the reversal at the Airport would be time consuming.

There are also a large amount of passengers from the ATW service who connect at Stockport for Sheffield and beyond.

 

[ivanhoe]

Lots of people from South Wales and Herefordshire use Manchester Airport, connecting at Wilmslow, there is definitely a surprisingly large market for it. The connection isn't as unreliable as it has been in the past - for whatever reasons the signallers at Crewe are now more likely to hold the Airport service and have it run behind the ATW as it's booked to, rather than sending it out religiously at xx:33 even if the ATW was already sat in Platform 6.

Diversions via the Styal line are actually slightly quicker than the mainline via Stockport, so long as you get a good path. The first few ATW services on a Sunday go that way, and they don't take nearly as long as they are booked to do. That said, the reversal at the Airport would be time consuming.

There are also a large amount of passengers from the ATW service who connect at Stockport for Sheffield and beyond.

Could you define lots? Or is it like the half dozen passengers from Newcastle ( often quoted by a certain poster)who are flying out to Florida from Manchester . I can see a justification of a direct train from North Wales but not from South Wales or Hereford.

 

[Llanigraham]

Could you define lots? Or is it like the half dozen passengers from Newcastle ( often quoted by a certain poster)who are flying out to Florida from Manchester . I can see a justification of a direct train from North Wales but not from South Wales or Hereford.

What is the matter with this forum?
The title of this thread says "WALES"!!
It does not say North or Mid or South, just WALES.
However it does seem to have been waylaid by much discussion from Gogledd Cymru.

I doubt that there are many actual statistics to show how many passengers or where they came from in Wales to get to Manchester Airport, but I know from friends and acquaintances both here in Mid Wales and in South Wales that the use of Manchester Airport is quite common, especially when the slightly cheaper end of the cross Atlantic flights are looked at.

I also know of people in the Hereford, Ludlow and Leominster area who also use Manchester over the London airports out of choice.

The greatest "turn-off" I hear from my South Walian friends about Heathrow is the hassle of changing to a coach at Reading, or the expense of the Heathrow Express/Tube, and if driving the risk of the Congestion Charge and the cost of car parking for more than 10 days.

 

[craigybagel]

Could you define lots? Or is it like the half dozen passengers from Newcastle ( often quoted by a certain poster)who are flying out to Florida from Manchester . I can see a justification of a direct train from North Wales but not from South Wales or Hereford.

I don't have figures, I only know from being a guard on the line in question. We always drop off passengers at Wilmslow for the airport, sometimes only a few, sometimes as much as 15 or 20. Not a huge market, and certainly not as much as the amount who change at Stockport so I'm certainly not saying its a flow that requires a direct train, I'm just saying that the numbers are higher than people might expect.

 

[Class 170101]

I don't have figures, I only know from being a guard on the line in question. We always drop off passengers at Wilmslow for the airport, sometimes only a few, sometimes as much as 15 or 20. Not a huge market, and certainly not as much as the amount who change at Stockport so I'm certainly not saying its a flow that requires a direct train, I'm just saying that the numbers are higher than people might expect.

How much bigger would you consider the 'numbers you quoted - ie a few to 15 - 20 might become if ATW provided direct services in respect of this flow based on what you have seen?