The last thing to electrify should be where?

[jopsuk]

What stock would then be used? Are there even any 1 car EMUs?

if we were to go for electrifying all our minor branches you can bet the usual players would investigate producing one and two car EMUs

 

[Bletchleyite]

if we were to go for electrifying all our minor branches you can bet the usual players would investigate producing one and two car EMUs

Short articulated EMUs like Stadler Flirt and the likes might make more sense. Indeed, I wonder if Stadler themselves would be interested. They already seem to do a unit with a UK like curved body profile for Scandinavia, and a high floor variant (PKP IC), as well as narrow versions (Swiss narrow gauge), so it shouldn't be rocket science to get to a UK version.

But I think 1-car trains are a dead concept. Demand is only likely to grow, and a 153 is barely sufficient for most lines these days, while accessibility stuff takes up space. 2x20m seems a sensible minimum, 2x23m probably even more sensible. While "shuttles" like Stourbridge and the Cardiff Bay Car might work better wired to low voltage with a high floor tram type vehicle in use - I reckon a Metrolink style tram would be ideal for both.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

The 442s will be redundant soon. Just couple enough of them end-to-end and you've got a covered walking route into town. No need for any actual electrification then!

Searches in vain for "like" button ...

 

[pwholmes]

To those of you advocating isolated 3rd rail schemes to eliminate what you perceive to be unsightly OLE in the West Country for example, you should be aware that one advantage of 25kV ac OLE to 700v dc third rail is that the former only required substations about 25 miles apart (that is with conventional RC/booster traction return, this can go up to 45 miles on auto-transformer traction return systems).

700v dc systems typically require feeding about every 5 or 6 miles in the worst case with all of the attendant problems in rural areas of additional overland lines feeding the subs and/or unsightly along track feeder cables.

With the additional substations and SCADA gear, this makes third rail an expensive option, and an option that ices up and comes to a halt when traffic is light, such as on many country branches.

The battery option is to my mind by far the best option - you would only have to wire half a railway just to keep the batteries charged over the rest of the route, and for branches up to, say, 50 miles long, this could be done without a new substation, simply being stub end fed from an existing electrified railway. Stock being stabled at the far end of the route (eg without OLE) could simply be plugged into a charger overnight.

You would not need a different type of stock, either. The battery/OLE vehicles could be used on all electrified lines.

 

[Smudger105e]

I thought the substations were closer than that on the Southern. 3 miles rings a bell.

There is one at Preston Park, one at Portslade, Southwick (I think) Lancing...

 

[Sloppyjag]

Whoops...
But, as you say, for single lines, such as the Cornish Branches and the FNL, OLE wouldn't be much of a problem.
Some of the designs seen on here would do really well on scenic routes, such as the S&C... http://www.ribacompetitions.com/ols/entries.html

I see there is a future for Pacers after all.
http://www.ribacompetitions.com/ols/entries/R86.jpg

 

[D365]

I see there is a future for Pacers after all.
http://www.ribacompetitions.com/ols/entries/R86.jpg

Am I imagining things or was there suggestion of an ePPM railcar?

 

[backontrack]

Got to be Inverness- Kyle/Thurso.

Both for scenic and cost reasons.

I'd also be a bit disappointed if they did the S&C.

I agree with this.

I'd quite like it to be the Goblin Line.
Give those southerners some pacers for a change.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

How long a section of overhead and how much equipment would be needed to install a "charging point" at the end of a branch line?

 

[8A Rail]

All lines in Scotland which are currently not electrified!

 

[TheKnightWho]

All lines in Scotland which are currently not electrified!

Like the Fife circle?

 

[Bletchleyite]

How long a section of overhead and how much equipment would be needed to install a "charging point" at the end of a branch line?

Would OHLE even be needed? Could the driver or guard simply plug in a cable as per some of the simpler electric bus projects? Could OHLE be provided at 415VAC from a regular supply?

 

[QueensCurve]

To those of you advocating isolated 3rd rail schemes to eliminate what you perceive to be unsightly OLE in the West Country for example, you should be aware that one advantage of 25kV ac OLE to 700v dc third rail is that the former only required substations about 25 miles apart (that is with conventional RC/booster traction return, this can go up to 45 miles on auto-transformer traction return systems).

The required power is the product of the voltage and the current drawn. This means that the lower the voltage, the higher the current. The losses in transmission are due to heating of the conductors and this is a function of the current. Therefore you get much lower losses in transmission by going for a high voltage.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Would OHLE even be needed? Could the driver or guard simply plug in a cable as per some of the simpler electric bus projects? Could OHLE be provided at 415VAC from a regular supply?

415V supplies are usually three phase. Three phase OHLE is complex but is used on the Jungfraubahn and the Zermatt to Gornergrat line.

 

[DarloRich]

Wire the lot, IMO. It would be so much better if the UK could reduce, or nearly eliminate its dependency on oil entirely. Electric railways, electric buses and electric trams all round, and a massive building programme of modern nuclear power stations, would be my ideal. Works for the Swiss!

We still need to generate the electricity that will be needed to provide traction power and that will be a lot more than now. That has a cost in both finances and resources. Nuclear is the seemingly unpalatable answer.

I'm aware cost will slow such a programme down, but the only answer to me to "what should we wire last" is "what is least cost-effective to wire". I wouldn't say to be overly precious about it.

exactly!

 

[alexl92]

I seem to be alone here but I think that all of the OHLE gangtries, both the Danish designs and the modern ones in the competition, look absolutely awful. The only way I can imagine it looking okay in a rural setting is if they take a leaf from the phone companies who are disguising signal masts as trees, and do likewise with the gangtries. But then it'd probably look odd and be too expensive.

Back to the OP's question, the S&C, the Kyle and Mallaig Lines and the Looe branch are all at the top of my list of 'No thanks!'

 

[DarloRich]

I seem to be alone here but I think that all of the OHLE gangtries, both the Danish designs and the modern ones in the competition, look absolutely awful. The only way I can imagine it looking okay in a rural setting is if they take a leaf from the phone companies who are disguising signal masts as trees, and do likewise with the gangtries. But then it'd probably look odd and be too expensive.

Back to the OP's question, the S&C, the Kyle and Mallaig Lines and the Looe branch are all at the top of my list of 'No thanks!'

Never going to happen - if OHLE equipment can be put on Durham Viaduct and the Royal Border Bridge they can, and will, go anywhere.

 

[ainsworth74]

Never going to happen - if OHLE equipment can be put on Durham Viaduct and the Royal Border Bridge they can, and will, go anywhere.

Then we get the all the stations that were done in the same program York, Newcastle, Darlington and Edinburgh Waverly (another fantastic example would be St Pancras) those are all wonderful stations with grand architecture yet you actually have to look quite closely to see the wires. I'm sure that Network Rail are more than capable of emulating BR and coming up with ways of sympathetically wiring our railway heritage.

 

[AM9]

415V supplies are usually three phase. Three phase OHLE is complex but is used on the Jungfraubahn and the Zermatt to Gornergrat line.

There's no reason why the charging point couldn't be three phase though. The batteries are DC and their charging controllers would probably be on the DC bus that most AC/DC enabled designs must have somewhere.
The real problem is that to charge the batteries in an operationally reasonable time from a 415V 3ø source would require several hundred amps charging current meaning that the cable would be as thick as a fire-hose and three times as heavy. Would any drivers on here like to comment about including that small task in their turning duties?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Never going to happen - if OHLE equipment can be put on Durham Viaduct and the Royal Border Bridge they can, and will, go anywhere.

Interesting to look at all of the entries here:

http://www.ribacompetitions.com/ols/entries.html

It's strange that so many of them seem to ignore that the purpose of catenary systems is to hold the contact wire down to a fixed height and the catenary wire up at a constant tension. Additionally, some of the headspans don't seem to have much rigidity in the interests of aesthetics. The Furrer and Frey entry seems to fit the bill both for fairly low intrusion yet mechanical integrity, not surprising really.

 

[Domh245]

It's not suprising, given that it is an architecture competition! I'm not saying anything, but ask an engineer to design a minimal impact system and you'll likely end up with something like the F&F design or the Omnia group one. I do find it rather funny that the 2 systems that will be used for the foreseeable future (F&F and omnia) weren't one of the shortlisted designs, although out of the 3 finalists, I think Tomahawk is the most technically viable whilst still being minimal impact

 

[apk55]

With 25KV electrification on a light traffic line you could probably stretch the distance between substations to 50 miles or more even without auto transformers, as the figures quoted are for high traffic lines with high powered trains running at close intervals. Even so it could still cope with an occasional higher powered train such as freight or specials. And there are very few sections of railway where they are a long distance from a major switching station or transmission line for that distance anyway.

 

[Elecman]

You could install a very small section of OLE at the end of the branch/ stabling point and feed it at 25kv from a simple 11or 33 Kv DNO supply via a 25 kv transformer with settings to stop it being used for traction purposes.

 

[8A Rail]

Like the Fife circle?

Dont take me too seriously! If Scotland wants electrification, they can pay for it for themselves!

But the last line to electrify (and come to think of it, never) is the S&C. It just won't be the S&C. (West Highland Line is another to be left alone too).

 

[6Gman]

So we should put nuclear reactors on board trains, then we'll know that no oil is being burnt.

In the late 1950s there were serious suggestions in the USA that nuclear-powered trains (i.e. with a mini power station on board) would be developed!

 

[DarloRich]

Interesting to look at all of the entries here:

http://www.ribacompetitions.com/ols/entries.html

It's strange that so many of them seem to ignore that the purpose of catenary systems is to hold the contact wire down to a fixed height and the catenary wire up at a constant tension. Additionally, some of the headspans don't seem to have much rigidity in the interests of aesthetics. The Furrer and Frey entry seems to fit the bill both for fairly low intrusion yet mechanical integrity, not surprising really.

Whilst lots of those designs are visually very nice ( and some are very clever concepts) i am not sure they offer opportunities for low unit rate, modular construction or easy installation/after care - ultimately "clever" designs will drive up the cost.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Then we get the all the stations that were done in the same program York, Newcastle, Darlington and Edinburgh Waverly (another fantastic example would be St Pancras) those are all wonderful stations with grand architecture yet you actually have to look quite closely to see the wires. I'm sure that Network Rail are more than capable of emulating BR and coming up with ways of sympathetically wiring our railway heritage.

exactly! these same silly arguments were made at the time of the ECML electrification

 

[QueensCurve]

I seem to be alone here but I think that all of the OHLE gangtries, both the Danish designs and the modern ones in the competition, look absolutely awful. The only way I can imagine it looking okay in a rural setting is if they take a leaf from the phone companies who are disguising signal masts as trees, and do likewise with the gangtries. But then it'd probably look odd and be too expensive.

Back to the OP's question, the S&C, the Kyle and Mallaig Lines and the Looe branch are all at the top of my list of 'No thanks!'

I personally don't see any significant detriment from single track cantilevers (as used in pairs on double track) and would go so far as think that any railway without OHLE looks incomplete.

Switzerland is a country of great scenic beauty and all lines are electrified. Only the Martigny to Chamonix line uses third rail and even that uses OHLE on the final run into Martigny.

Also bear in mind that most railways originally had a line of telegraph poles along their length. Modern practice has taken away that visual intrusion.

I will say that current Network Rail designs of OHLE are less aesthetically appealing than they could be and the approach taken to backfitting "autotransformer" on the once elegant BR Mk 3 design leaves a lot to be desired.

So let us proceed with electrification where economically justified and try to take account of aesthetic concerns where raised.

 

[Busaholic]

To balance against the threads which ask about the next thing to get juice.

I'd prefer the Cornish Branches, in particular Looe, to avoid any overheads for as long as possible. Gantries would spoil the setting. Third rail would be fine however.

Given we have the maximum sunshine possible down here in Cornwall I think we should be looking for the world's first solar-powered trains on the branch lines, with sponsorship by the Cornish Tourist Board, and Aidan Turner lookalikes employed to do a bit of scything at the side of the tracks each time a train passes. Now how many trains fit on to the Looe branch? Got to go and close my window as something wet is being blown through it: the wrong type of sun, obviously.

 

[pemma]

Given we have the maximum sunshine possible down here in Cornwall I think we should be looking for the world's first solar-powered trains on the branch lines, with sponsorship by the Cornish Tourist Board, and Aidan Turner lookalikes employed to do a bit of scything at the side of the tracks each time a train passes. Now how many trains fit on to the Looe branch? Got to go and close my window as something wet is being blown through it: the wrong type of sun, obviously.

"We are sorry for the slow running of this service. Due to a shortage of direct sunlight the train is currently unable to run at over 30mph."

 

[Busaholic]

"We are sorry for the slow running of this service. Due to a shortage of direct sunlight the train is currently unable to run at over 30mph."

No difference there then.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

There really will be no issues with electrification the scenic network.

There are plenty of architectural and engineering tricks of the trade which can be used to reduce the visual impact of electrification. Current electrification looks ugly not because it has to be ugly, but because there's no real need for it to be attractive. It's also easy to forget just how many semaphores and telegraph poles there were on the ECML before it was electrified, and even the more rural routes used to have a lot more 'clutter' in days gone by.

If routes like the S&C and the WHL were to be electrified in future, they'll be done in a much more sympathetic, considered fashion. The design of the masts will be adapted to the surroundings, most likely through the use of COR-TEN steel masts and where needed, twin track cantilevers. Single track routes are less of an issue, with masts placed on the side of the track where they'll have the least impact to either the railway or to passengers onboard.

The UK Series 1 OLE design is much tidier than previous BR designs and has a much lower overall visual impact, but that too could be powder coated or manufactured from aluminium and anodised in a low impact colour if desired.

The OLE equipment used on bridges can be designed to have minimum impact and to 'follow on' from the original design language used, so whilst it won't be invisible, it won't look wrong either. The GWML work at Sydney Gardens and the impending electrification of the Fife Circle and with it, the Forth Bridge, will demonstrate how to install OLE on such structures in a sympathetic fashion.

Feeding points and auto transformer equipment doesn't need to be in compounds surrounded by galvanised or green palisade fencing, you could, if you wanted, hide such equipment in 'fake' buildings at the side of the railway, you could even locate such equipment in disused (or new, fake) signal boxes.

One only needs to look at the pumping house for the Severn Tunnel, or the ventilation shafts for the Rotherhithe Tunnel to see how engineers and architects have, in the past, dealt with the problems of hiding or lessening the impact of necessary but unpopular infrastructure projects.

 

[delt1c]

Never ceases to amaze me , lets avoid electrification because its ugly. Regularly travel in Europe and visit Black Forest In Germany at least once a year , all is electrified and you dont even notice to mast. Imagine travelling through the Black Forest in Steam days with all the tunnels and engine working hard you wouldnt see anything but smoke.