Network Rail upgrade delayed by government (BBC News Article)

[Hellfire]

So, the South is a priority for electrification but the Trans Pennine route isn't. There's a surprise.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Any thoughts on how the announcement will affect the modernisation of signalling on the current network? (Specifically the closure of signal boxes and the move to ROCs)

I don't pretend to understand the details, but the resignalling schemes in trouble seem to be those where large-scale remodelling is involved, such as around Bristol and Cardiff.
Design and testing resources are in very short supply, and NR keeps wasting its own and its suppliers efforts in repeated redesign of these schemes before letting a contract.
Migration to ROCs (recontrol of existing signalling) seems to be less fraught.
The trouble is that the NR plan was for fast migration in order to reduce the costs of running the network.
Putting off migration just keeps the cost higher for longer.

 

[quantinghome]

Hang on, I'm not against HS2. I'm just stating the simple fact that right now the public appetite for HS2 when there are huge cuts and NR costs are spiralling (even if they aren't the same people building HS2) is very low. However, if you spent 2bn extra a year on education, health or indeed the current network the public opinion will be better. Not saying it would be spent there.

The electorate at large are not that interested in HS2. It was a non-issue at the election. The public have no 'appetite' for a number of projects to which the government is strongly committed.

It doesn't really. Costs spiralling on the GWML electrification making the argument for HS2 stronger or any other new line is beyond me. I just think it strengthens the argument for less fragmentation and bureaucracy.

I agree that less fragmentation and bureaucracy is welcome. However, it will always be the case that upgrading existing infrastructure is problematic. There are many reasons for this, but two key ones are (i) imperfect knowledge of existing assets - e.g. hitting signalling cables that weren't on any drawings and (ii) working on an operating asset - e.g. night-only working at overtime rates paid for a full shift but with only 4 hours' work possible, access issues etc.

There are similar problems with all other infrastructure - for example the 'smart motorway' projects currently underway are very expensive, take a long time, and result in traffic delays going on for years.

By contrast, large new build schemes have tended to run reasonably smoothly over the past decade or so.

 

[infobleep]

The electorate at large are not that interested in HS2. It was a non-issue at the election. The public have no 'appetite' for a number of projects to which the government is strongly committed.



I agree that less fragmentation and bureaucracy is welcome. However, it will always be the case that upgrading existing infrastructure is problematic. There are many reasons for this, but two key ones are (i) imperfect knowledge of existing assets - e.g. hitting signalling cables that weren't on any drawings and (ii) working on an operating asset - e.g. night-only working at overtime rates paid for a full shift but with only 4 hours' work possible, access issues etc.

There are similar problems with all other infrastructure - for example the 'smart motorway' projects currently underway are very expensive, take a long time, and result in traffic delays going on for years.

By contrast, large new build schemes have tended to run reasonably smoothly over the past decade or so.

Was the government right to replace the main at the top?

 

[quantinghome]

Was the government right to replace the main at the top?

I have no idea TBH, but Peter Hendy has a track record of delivering complex projects. He may be the right man.

 

[TheEdge]

So, the South is a priority for electrification but the Trans Pennine route isn't. There's a surprise.

Exactly what I thought.

 

[QueensCurve]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33270586

This is not unexpected but worrying nevertheless.

Given that Network Rail has now been nationalised, are we returning to the bad old days of the External Funding Limit?

 

[DarloRich]

Exactly what I thought.

or one where the work has actually started.

 

[northwichcat]

Exactly what I thought.

To be fair if GWML electrification is delayed it means Scotrail's rolling stock plans are screwed, as well as a 99.9% chance rolling stock plans proposed by Northern Rail bidders are as well.

There are no plans for 185s to go to other parts of the country and I don't think anything's been agreed for the future of 222s (unless TPE bidders have proposed using them.)

 

[CdBrux]

or one where the work has actually started.

careful, you're in danger of letting some facts get in the way of a rant!

 

[jon0844]

If there's new rolling stock to be announced, can we assume a lot more IEPs? It would seem that these allow for new stock now, ahead of electrification, and just more diesel running for a while.

Thus, you pause projects where there will be these new trains introduced and you've automatically got more time.

That's what I'd be doing anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

If there's new rolling stock to be announced, can we assume a lot more IEPs? It would seem that these allow for new stock now, ahead of electrification, and just more diesel running for a while.

Thus, you pause projects where there will be these new trains introduced and you've automatically got more time.

That's what I'd be doing anyway.

One alternative proposed in the Network Rail Rolling Stock RUS was to order new versatile trains for regional routes, which are suitable to be cascaded down to rural lines unlikely to be electrified. So possibly something like the 172 being ordered with a 'regional spec interior'?

 

[Senex]

To be fair if GWML electrification is delayed it means Scotrail's rolling stock plans are screwed, as well as a 99.9% chance rolling stock plans proposed by Northern Rail bidders are as well.

There are no plans for 185s to go to other parts of the country and I don't think anything's been agreed for the future of 222s (unless TPE bidders have proposed using them.)

True enough, but nevertheless interesting that GW was given priority over MML by the Labour government even though MML had the better benefit-cost figures and now a Tory government is apparently committed to keeping going on GW even if that means ditching or severely delaying MML and TPE. I'd see at least an element of both parties being quite happy to screw the English regions in order to keep Wales happy.

 

[WatcherZero]

And what does this mean for rolling stock on the MML? Refurbished HST? LHCS? Bi-mode IEP running in diesel mode?

Talk of HST displaced from East Coast being used to provide temporary expanded capacity on MML while electrification delayed, presumably with a derogation for 2020 requirements.

 

[hwl]

How much of the actual mast and wiring work on the MML electrification was going to rely on staff or equipment from elsewhere (i.e. currently working on delayed projects)?

 

[WatcherZero]

Its more about Government wanting to limit the annual budget to existing committed spending, if its costing more they wont increase the budget they will just require the work take longer. They don't want to increase Network Rails budget because of the impact it would have on the deficit.

 

[CdBrux]

Its more about Government wanting to limit the annual budget to existing committed spending, if its costing more they wont increase the budget they will just require the work take longer. They don't want to increase Network Rails budget because of the impact it would have on the deficit.

I hope it's more than that. If they upped the spending limits, and I take your point that is clearly not going to happen, to keep all projects on time (and found enough skilled engineers etc... to deliver) then they'd presumably pay a lot more for a given project than if they stepped back for a bit, learnt lessons, and applied them to the projects like MML and nailed down a proper scope and detail of what needs to be done for Transpennine.

 

[thealexweb]

How will this affect the ongoing NW Electrification? Phase 2 was 'completed' around six months late. Right now I would be amazed if Phase 4 was delivered on time.

 

[WatcherZero]

It opened in March when official target was December. Later phases are at the moment on schedule.

 

[thealexweb]

It opened in March when official target was December. Later phases are at the moment on schedule.

Thank you for the clarification. I quoted six months rather than four months as I believe the last piece of non-critical wiring was only installed a few weeks ago.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It opened in March when official target was December. Later phases are at the moment on schedule.

It would be a surprise (to me, anyway) if the wires reached Blackpool and Stalybridge by early 2017 as currently promised.
Then there's also the impact on the Northern Hub work (carefully not mentioned today) and anything involving new signalling.
Promises have also been made for projects like the Chase Line, Bromsgrove, and GOBLIN.
Another un-mentioned project is EGIP. No doubt that statement would come from Scotland rather than Westminster.

Manchester Victoria did not go live until 18 May, 5 months late.
The AT capability is still not in use.

 

[CdBrux]

http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...mons/todays-commons-debates/read/unknown/426/

for those interested this is the text of the announcement AND the ensuing Q&A session in the House of Commons

 

[MK Tom]

Is East-West Rail affected at all?

 

[DarloRich]

Is East-West Rail affected at all?

No specific details although the following question was asked:

Richard Fuller (Bedford) (Con):
The pause in electrification of the midland main line has a potential impact on the selection of the route to complete the east-west rail link—a crucial issue for my constituents in Bedford and Kempston. Will my right hon. Friend show his characteristically robust and decisive approach, write to the head of Network Rail and ask him to stop dawdling and decide which of the two routes from Bedford is the right one to complete the link? Will my right hon. Friend also ask my hon. Friend the rail Minister to visit Bedford and speak to me and the Mayor of Bedford about this very important issue?

Mr McLoughlin:
I am sure the rail Minister will be more than happy to meet my hon. Friend in his constituency to discuss the problems being faced. I will certainly feed in what he has said to Sir Peter Hendy as he completes the review that I have asked him to undertake.

 

[swt_passenger]

... I never said the money will be diverted to the current network

No, but the inference is there, whenever people post about HS2 in the context of problems with NR's finances. If you didn't intend to imply it, why post about HS2 in this thread at all?

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Was the government right to replace the main at the top?

It's a non executive position. He shouldn't be involved in the detailed planning of infrastructure projects.

 

[LLivery]

No, but the inference is there, whenever people post about HS2 in the context of problems with NR's finances. If you didn't intend to imply it, why post about HS2 in this thread at all?

Because I replied to a statement on the first page about HS2 going ahead...

 

[snowball]

It opened in March when official target was December.

Phases 2b and 2c were a bit later than that.

Later phases are at the moment on schedule.

JL has said that phase 4 is on schedule (more or less) but hinted that 3 (Blackpool) and 5 (Stalybridge) may not be.

 

[TUC]

Where does the pause on transpennine electrification leave Hull Trains who were building their case for future open access agreements, and decisions on rolling stock, around them contributing to Selby- Hull electrification?

 

[QueensCurve]

The sheer amount of money for HS2 can't be palatable. I can see the West Yorks branch being cut. Its not really needed.

]It is slightly odd that the money can be found for what might arguably be a vanity project while the money can't be found to feed the paups.

 

[meridian2]

So they delay vital upgrades yet continue to pump money into HS2??