Network Rail upgrade delayed by government (BBC News Article)

[6Gman]

So they delay vital upgrades yet continue to pump money into HS2??

Well, that might be because the issues facing the "vital upgrades" are different from those facing HS2.

 

[quantinghome]

It's a non executive position. He shouldn't be involved in the detailed planning of infrastructure projects.

True enough, but there does seem to be a systemic issue with NR's project management - it's not just electrification. Having sufficient quantities of experienced staff to manage the work is impacted by recruitment and retention levels, early retirement / voluntary redundancy policies and so on. If they didn't have the number of experienced staff needed to begin with, they should have been aware of that and made sure they could only bite off what they could chew. This is a board-level issue.

 

[QueensCurve]

At a time when everything is being cut to the bone, the money planned for HS2 isn't palatable. No matter which of the departments spends it - public opinion will give them a massive battering. I never said the money will be diverted to the current network

I wish you are right, but at the moment the electorate still seems to be very much on side with the cuts.

 

[Grumbler]

Mr McLoughlin seems a little confused.
He says:


And then says he's 'pausing' large chunks of that investment. Seems very odd.
And what does this mean for rolling stock on the MML? Refurbished HST? LHCS? Bi-mode IEP running in diesel mode?

Recycled Pacers?

 

[quantinghome]

So they delay vital upgrades yet continue to pump money into HS2??

Already addressed upthread, but to briefly repeat, today's news tells us that upgrading existing lines is difficult and prone to time and cost overruns, more so than building new lines. One of the key drivers behind HS2 was the terrible experience of upgrading the WCML in the 2000s. But hey, if you want to throw good money after bad...

 

[AM9]

So they delay vital upgrades yet continue to pump money into HS2??

And so they should. At government level, HS2 is as closely related to a duplication of the M1/M6* as it is to the MML and TP northern route.

* - but much better value.

 

[TimG]

]It is slightly odd that the money can be found for what might arguably be a vanity project while the money can't be found to feed the paups.

Big infrastructure projects should be good for employment and skills.

 

[TUC]

The challenge for Network Rail is surely clear. If you want the money for rail development, prove you're not a bottomless pit that wastes funds and fails to deliver. Surely that is an entirrky readonable position?

 

[Peter Sarf]

Will this impact on future projects such as Cross Rail 2, which is still in the design stage I believe.

Would it be possible to make infrastructure changes that were cheaper to put in or is that a false economy?

If the MML is not electrified, how does that impact o rolling stock and rolling stock contracts and/or cascades?

The biggest hole in rolling stock is, as I see it, for suburban type DMUs. For example to replace and augment Pacers and ageing Sprinters. The electrification scheme being paused now (Midland Mainline) would not have supplied the right kind of diesel trains anyway. There are speed improvements to be had on that route regardless of electrification.

Generally it seems to me that the only real backwards step is a pause on electrification after GWML.

I also note the speech effectively reinforces the argument for building completely new high speed lines like they do in most developed countries. France has done so for thirty years. I used the LGV to the South of France in the summer of 1986. We might actually be waking up at last here in the UK.

I can see this being good news for HS2 and Crossrail2. I can see HS2 being extended across the Pennines to Leeds (bit off topic) rather than tinkering with the existing lines. Though electrifying the existing trans Pennine routes might free up some useful DMUs ?.

 

[DarloRich]

Where does the pause on transpennine electrification leave Hull Trains who were building their case for future open access agreements, and decisions on rolling stock, around them contributing to Selby- Hull electrification?

This is the only mention in the statement:

Diana Johnson (Kingston upon Hull North) (Lab):

What does pausing trans-Pennine electrification mean for the privately funded initiative put forward to electrify the line from Selby to Hull—which was, of course, missed out in his Department’s original plans?

Mr McLoughlin:

The hon. Lady is not being quite fair, because I made some extra money available to take that route to the next GRIP stage. To say that we missed it out is slightly unfair, but leaving that to one side, I hope that the plans being developed will be acted on.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I also note the speech effectively reinforces the argument for building completely new high speed lines like they do in most developed countries. France has done so for thirty years. I used the LGV to the South of France in the summer of 1986. We might actually be waking up at last here in the UK.

I can see this being good news for HS2 and Crossrail2. I can see HS2 being extended across the Pennines to Leeds (bit off topic) rather than tinkering with the existing lines. Though electrifying the existing trans Pennine routes might free up some useful DMUs ?.

I would be cautious about quoting the SNCF as a centre of excellence if I were you. By all concentrating all of its resources on to its LGV routes its overseen a steady decline on the rest of the network, especially with regard to Intercity services. The evidence is all to see. I honestly thought that the Government had learnt valuable lessons from the French; yes we need extra capacity at the southern end of the WCML but at the same time we need to continue to improve and electrify routes that do not benefit from HS2. In the case of the MML the Government has failed to do this and I think its highly unlikely that in my life time (I'm 49 in August) the MML will be electrified. Its a real shame in my opinion.

 

[Kettledrum]

Talk of HST displaced from East Coast being used to provide temporary expanded capacity on MML while electrification delayed, presumably with a derogation for 2020 requirements.

Hopefully you're right. The alternative is that some of the existing 10 coach trains, made up of 2x5 car units together, will be split. Thereby you will still have the additional train per hour leaving St Pancras, but use the same number of carriages and seats.

 

[westv]

This is the only mention in the statement:

The last I heard, Hull electrification wasn't going to go anywhere for another 10 years or so. Presumably this is unchanged.

 

[oddiesjack]

From the full report in Hansard (referenced above):

Mr Patrick McLoughlin:
Anybody who goes today to Sheffield’s Victoria station will see a station that has been rebuilt as a result of this Government’s investment.

eh???????

 

[Bantamzen]

From a personal standpoint, whilst not unexpected news it is still very disappointing, especially given the timing so soon after the election and with the language used. As someone well versed in public sector speak, the word "paused" when used in conunction with any project means one of two things:

- The project is in a mess and is going to have to be delayed
- The project is in a mess and is going to be tucked into a corner in the hope that everyone forgets about it

Given that the announcement is soon soon after the GE, I'm betting on the latter. And regardless of the government's plans, for the North TPE this leaves an awful lot of questions:

- How will it affect plans by the bidders for both the TP & Northern franchises. I suspect all were working on the basis that by the beginning of the next decade much if not all of the North TP would be electrified. So given that it's likely that work may not have even started, how is this going affect plans on future new / cascaded stock? What about the plans to move the Liverpool bound services fully onto the Chat Moss route and running as a fast service through to Newcastle?

- Will this have an impact on the Ordsall chord, and if so what effect will that have not only on the above but the various other aspirations for Northern and TPE re-routing around Manchester to minimise congestion at the throat of Piccadilly? Will it also impact on the capacity increases planned for Pic and reshaping of the route through to Oxford Road?

- What about the plans to electrify east of Leeds towards York? Given VTEC's hopes to run additional services from Bradford & Harrogate, will a delay to electrification on this section scupper these plans?

I'll probably think of more as time goes on, but one impact it will have is on the public's support of HS2. Make absolutely no mistake, this will have a massive impact with people seeing one set of plans being shelved whilst HS2 marches on. Yes I know we are talking about separate projects and budgets, and that HS2 does eventually bring capacity improvements to the classic network. But those benefits are almost two decades away at least, and all the public up here in the North and the Midlands will see is that their planned improvements can't be afforded, whilst that big old HS line pointing London bound is still on track (not to mention the GW & Crossrail projects). Expect a firestorm for HS2 from increasing numbers. And expect plenty more North vs South accusations both here and further afield!

 

[RichmondCommu]

And so they should. At government level, HS2 is as closely related to a duplication of the M1/M6* as it is to the MML and TP northern route.

* - but much better value.

However that is of no use to towns and cities that don't have a station on HS2. If you take the MML as an example that includes Chesterfield, Derby, Nottingham and Leicester not to mention all the others.

Sadly Network Rail is not competent enough as a state run organisation to electrify two major routes at a time, let alone cost things out properly. I wonder what the odds are of the GWML being the last existing trunk route to be electrified in England and Wales.

In all fairness the last Labour Government was as much to blame for this and I say that as a member of the Labour party. Absolutely nothing was done until the Tories got elected and now they have run out of patience with Network Rail.

 

[infobleep]

The biggest hole in rolling stock is, as I see it, for suburban type DMUs. For example to replace and augment Pacers and ageing Sprinters. The electrification scheme being paused now (Midland Mainline) would not have supplied the right kind of diesel trains anyway. There are speed improvements to be had on that route regardless of electrification.

Generally it seems to me that the only real backwards step is a pause on electrification after GWML.

I also note the speech effectively reinforces the argument for building completely new high speed lines like they do in most developed countries. France has done so for thirty years. I used the LGV to the South of France in the summer of 1986. We might actually be waking up at last here in the UK.

I can see this being good news for HS2 and Crossrail2. I can see HS2 being extended across the Pennines to Leeds (bit off topic) rather than tinkering with the existing lines. Though electrifying the existing trans Pennine routes might free up some useful DMUs ?.

Given the realisation that it's difficult to upgrade existing infrastructure and Network Rail are delivering late on projects, will they allow more time for HS2 and/or Crossrail 2 to complete and perhaps even start if there is now an admitted a shortage of skilled staff or high turn over? Is there a shortage of staff with the right skills?

 

[amcluesent]

HS2 is, and always has been, driven by diktats from Brussels that date back the time of the flawed decisions that drove a single currency for Europe, disregarding the manifest flaws in that plan. Which is why the Netherlands hi-speed railway is a white elephant, France's loses money hand-over-first etc.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Given the realisation that it's difficult to upgrade existing infrastructure and Network Rail are delivering late on projects, will they allow more time for HS2 and/or Crossrail 2 to complete and perhaps even start if there is now an admitted a shortage of skilled staff or high turn over? Is there a shortage of staff with the right skills?

Speaking as a Londoner who would directly benefit from Crossrail 2, for the sake of the nation as a whole I honestly hope that the project is not started until other improvements are made in the North. The economic divide would become even worse if we were to do that.

 

[QueensCurve]

So, the South is a priority for electrification but the Trans Pennine route isn't. There's a surprise.

While there seems to be a certain element of plus ca change about this announcement, it would seem that electrification in the northwest is unaffected.

I certainly recognise pro-south bias in many fields, but perhaps the "priority" in this case comes from the fact that Great Western electrification is [relatively] well advanced but there is not a pile, mast or wire north of Bedford or East of Personchester yet to be installed.

That said it is very disappointing, but almost to be expected given Network Rail's lack of delivery to date. 20 route miles in 4-5 years from Manchester to Parkside does not inspire confidence.

 

[snowball]

From the full report in Hansard (referenced above):

Mr Patrick McLoughlin:
Anybody who goes today to Sheffield’s Victoria station will see a station that has been rebuilt as a result of this Government’s investment.

eh???????

He was doubtless thinking of Manchester Victoria.

 

[QueensCurve]

If there's new rolling stock to be announced, can we assume a lot more IEPs?

Very possibly. Does anyone think there is something cosy about DafT's relationship with Hitachi on this one?

 

[CdBrux]

Given the realisation that it's difficult to upgrade existing infrastructure and Network Rail are delivering late on projects, will they allow more time for HS2 and/or Crossrail 2 to complete and perhaps even start if there is now an admitted a shortage of skilled staff or high turn over? Is there a shortage of staff with the right skills?

They are late on specific parts of electrification projects. New build stuff are by all accounts mostly on budget and time. HS2 and Crossrail2 (not NR projects) fall into the latter category.

 

[GrimsbyPacer]

Why is GWML 'prioty' but MML isn't??

If the Midland Mainline was electric to London from Sheffield and Nottingham for example, the only diesels needed would be to serve Corby and the limited Leeds, Lincoln and Scarborough trains. Virtually eliminating most diesels.

The Great Western Mainline would still need many more diesels to run as it won't serve Devon and Cornwall and many other areas.

I think it's mainly to save the government from embarressment from IEP trains not being ably to run and partially political allegiences in Berkshire etc.

 

[DarloRich]

Why is GWML 'prioty' but MML isn't??

If the Midland Mainline was electric to London from Sheffield and Nottingham for example, the only diesels needed would be to serve Corby and the limited Leeds, Lincoln and Scarborough trains. Virtually eliminating most diesels.

The Great Western Mainline would still need many more diesels to run as it won't serve Devon and Cornwall and many other areas.

I think it's mainly to save the government from embarressment from IEP trains not being ably to run and partially political allegiences in Berkshire etc.

because, simply, the work has reached a more advanced stage on GW and the resources can be focused on finishing that one off

 

[30907]

Why is GWML 'prioty' but MML isn't??

If the Midland Mainline was electric to London from Sheffield and Nottingham for example, the only diesels needed would be to serve Corby and the limited Leeds, Lincoln and Scarborough trains. Virtually eliminating most diesels.

According to the BBC text but not the map, its only north of Sheffield that is shelved anyway. Certain logic in that given the present pattern of services (Leeds is only because of Neville Hill).

 

[swt_passenger]

According to the BBC text but not the map, its only north of Sheffield that is shelved anyway. Certain logic in that given the present pattern of services (Leeds is only because of Neville Hill).

BBC fail I'd suggest.

IIRC the MML electrification project as currently defined didn't extend north of Sheffield anyway, extension to ECML at Doncaster was yet to be confirmed.

 

[QueensCurve]

However that is of no use to towns and cities that don't have a station on HS2. If you take the MML as an example that includes Chesterfield, Derby, Nottingham and Leicester not to mention all the others.

As HST marches on, is it too late to look at an alternative route following the M1 corridor?

That would learn one of the lessons of "HS1" - that it should follow a route of existing blight (M1 cf M20) But this would be of far more benefit to the M1/MML corridor and potentially be of more use to those who want high speed trains to go further north. Not least it would take it out of the concerns of NIMBYs in the Chilterns.

I know that the rational for "HS2" is providing more capacity between London and Birmingham, but capacity can be released in that area by a high speed line further East.

And high speed really makes more sense over longer distances such as London to Scotland rather than from London to Brum which only takes about 80 mins to start with.

Any thoughts?

 

[fgwrich]

because, simply, the work has reached a more advanced stage on GW and the resources can be focused on finishing that one off

It seems that the main priority with regards to the GWML now is to complete as much as possible of London to Swindon to give the Bi Mode IEPs something to run on, with Oxford and Newbury now likely to be pushed back a little further. Great for IEP, not so for everything else across the west - Delaying the GWML LTV Electrification will of course delay the improvements across the West Country and unit cascade. GWML Intercity Electrification however will only release a handful of HSTs for now.

Now we couldn't have any of those shiny new Government procured IEPs sat doing nowt while... as the BBCs 'age concerned' Paul Clifton put it, ''Have the Embarrassment of having shiny new trains sat doing nothing while cramped and congested 40 year old High Speed Trains run past''...

 

[QueensCurve]

He was doubtless thinking of Manchester Victoria.

Oops!