Network Rail upgrade delayed by government (BBC News Article)

[ANorthernGuard]

I wonder if this will affect any of the bids for the TPE/Northern Franchises?

 

[Mojo]

Because with Derby they are much bigger cities and deliver more to the national economy.

Actually, of the top 20 most productive Subregions in the UK outside of London; 5 of them are on the section of the Great Western that are to be electrified; Berkshire, Swindon, Oxfordshire, Greater Bristol and Wiltshire. On the Midland Main Line, only 1 (Derby) is in the top 20. Further, some of the lowest-scoring Subregions also stand to gain from the upgrades to the Great Western. Cornwall is languishing up there third from the bottom, and many places in South Wales aren't doing that much better. (http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171776_395953.pdf)

Overall, populations of key conurbations along the route are not really that different. Rough figures: -
- Sheffield Urban Area 690,000; Greater Nottingham 730,000; Derby 250,000, Leicester 330,000
- Greater Bristol just over 1 Million; Swindon 210,000; Reading Urban Area 310,000; Cardiff Urban Area 450,000

But this should not really be a competition, continuing with Great Western makes much more sense given the works are significantly more advanced, and the lack of upgrades lines serving this area have had.

 

[cjmillsnun]

For the MML rolling stock, although the Meridians can stay for at least another 20ish years, the HSTs need to be replaced within the next 5 years, it is completely unacceptable for 40+ year old trains to be running on a mainline, especially as such trains have never received a proper refurbishment, and still have exactly the same seats that they were built with.
Personally I think Network Rail should focus on continuing the Sheffield branch, allowing 2 trains per hour to turn electric, freeing up enough stock to completely displace the HSTs, while I would also stop the direct service to Corby, to be replaced by a 153 shuttle to and from Kettering, with the direct service instead diverting to Leicester to also allow this to be electrified.
I personally would go for Sheffield, over Nottingham because this will allow trains to access current depots.

Not strictly true. The seat frames may be original, however the cushions and moquette have all been upgraded. So they're not "exactly the same seats" i.e. threadbare and collapsing.

The big thing that needs doing on the HSTs is the accessibility and fitting of retention toilets. The power cars have all been re-engined (and EMT/Scotrail) could get the pick of the best ones with the others being cannibalised for spares.

And what is wrong with 40+ year old trains. If they're maintained to a high standard and are reliable, then that's all the passengers want. Clean, reliable trains.

Most people won't even realise how old the HST is, and they don't honestly care.

 

[Class 170101]

Unfortunately we are now in the situation where the Great Western Wiring Project need to carry on. However I would have not started it at this stage, instead focussing on MML with its greater (potential) links to the existing wired network and the greater abundance of wiring infill projects once the MML wiring had been completed.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Most people won't even realise how old the HST is, and they don't honestly care.

I concur however the doors are a pain in the backside and need to be changed if the HST's are to stay until 2040.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I concur however the doors are a pain in the backside and need to be changed if the HST's are to stay until 2040.

And in the grand scheme of things, that won't be expensive to do. Two proven alternatives exist. The 442 type doors or the Chilternised doors. Both are options offered by Porterbrook for Mk3s.

 

[RichmondCommu]

But this should not really be a competition, continuing with Great Western makes much more sense given the works are significantly more advanced, and the lack of upgrades lines serving this area have had.

I concur. It just seems such a shame that Network Rail are not capable of wiring up two routes at the same time.

 

[TUC]

And where does the BBC locate its reporter for this item on the Ten O'Cleck News? At Kings Cross-nothing to do with any of the projects affected.

 

[RichmondCommu]

And in the grand scheme of things, that won't be expensive to do. Two proven alternatives exist. The 442 type doors or the Chilternised doors. Both are options offered by Porterbrook for Mk3s.

However would the TOC be prepared to stump up the cost? Door modifications have not been carried out on MK3 GE stock.

 

[Haydn1971]

I'm banging my head against the wall on this one.... It's not the costs that's causing the delay, it's the lack of people and resources to get the job done in the case of MML and the need for something "bigger" for TPX.

HS2 doesn't factor here either, it's called an investment for growth, so long as the return is bigger than the investment, it's a win win situation.

Returning to MML - what have we really lost ? It's not really beyond the whit of man to get an order for some kind of rolling stock solution in place, that could be reorganising the 222's, banging an order in for some diesel multiple units, bi-modes or even some locos to pull the Mk4's - it's not a game changer really. HS2 will effectively replace MML for express services in just over a decade anyways.

TransPennine, as I've said before, spending half a billion for an extra train per hour plus the cost of new rolling stock isn't the step change we need and does nothing for Sheffield and little for places either side of Manchester and Leeds - isn't it better to more sensibly apply that investment in a step change rail solution that brings 140mph+ reality to Liverpool, Manchester, Leeds, Sheffield, Hull, York and elsewhere ?

 

[RichmondCommu]

And where does the BBC locate its reporter for this item on the Ten O'Cleck News? At Kings Cross-nothing to do with any of the projects affected.

In the grand scheme of things i.e. my wife, no one cares. Its just news.

 

[cjmillsnun]

However would the TOC be prepared to stump up the cost? Door modifications have not been carried out on MK3 GE stock.

AGA are on a management contract. They had no money to upgrade past a refresh. I'm guessing they (or their successor) are going to get the 225s when the IEPs enter service with VTEC anyway.

Stagecoach are not afraid to invest in rolling stock, including ex BR stock. Their investment in SWT's 455s shows that.

 

[al.currie93]

Anyway, I'm willing to give Mr McLoughlin the benefit of the doubt as he strikes me as quite pro-rail. We could certainly do a lot worse.

That is a fair point I have to admit - I'll give him one little point for being pro-rail, even if he is a fool and I don't believe he has any real idea about what to do for the railways!

But it's clear that one of the problems is the lack of sufficient engineers with the skills required to carry out electrification projects. In which case, something has to be postponed.

Not getting at you at all here, but this is another thing that gets me riled - I am an almost graduated electrical power engineer with experience working for the electricity supply industry, an interest an knowledge of the railways and an interest in working for them, and I hear people talking about this all the time.

I worked within the electricity supply industry for a year designing and managing the building of new connections to the electricity distribution system, initially working with my seniors but doing the job almost alone by the end of the year. I heard a hundred times that they are in desperate need for new engineers, then told that I won't be able to work for them after graduating because they have had funding cuts and are no longer taking on new engineers...

I hear it said all the time that the country needs new engineers in the field of power engineering and civil infrastructure, yet when we 'answer the call' they make it seem like it's far from that - either turning us away due to funding or being very selective with who they choose and very closefisted with their terms and offers... no wonder so many of us engineers fight for the few remaining roles this country has in other areas of engineering or go into law or banking instead!

Rant over, sorry! :P

 

[RichmondCommu]

Returning to MML - what have we really lost ? It's not really beyond the whit of man to get an order for some kind of rolling stock solution in place, that could be reorganising the 222's, banging an order in for some diesel multiple units, bi-modes or even some locos to pull the Mk4's - it's not a game changer really. HS2 will effectively replace MML for express services in just over a decade anyways.

Haydn, HS2 is of no use to anyone currently using the MML unless you live within 5 miles of either Meadowhall or Toton. Other than that your best bet for getting to London and in between is the MML. Even the DfT and Network Rail have stated that this is the case. MML users best hope is that 125 mph units are built as loco hauled stock would be a disaster.

 

[westv]

I concur however the doors are a pain in the backside and need to be changed if the HST's are to stay until 2040.

HST doors really are from another century.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Whilst today's announcements are disappointing, it wasn't exactly unexpected given the current government's quest to reduce spending.

The spend has not been cut, in fact McLoughlin confirmed the CP5 spend would stay at the original £38.5 billion.
The question is what does that money buy, and how long will it take.
NR doesn't have the resources to deliver the full set of projects, even if it had unlimited money.

 

[RichmondCommu]

AGA are on a management contract. They had no money to upgrade past a refresh. I'm guessing they (or their successor) are going to get the 225s when the IEPs enter service with VTEC anyway.

Stagecoach are not afraid to invest in rolling stock, including ex BR stock. Their investment in SWT's 455s shows that.

Yes but upgrading the traction motors on 455's is very different and much cheaper than completely rebuilding MK3 stock.

How long do you think it will take the 225's to reach the GEML? Would it not be quicker to order new EMU's?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

HST doors really are from another century.

Literally. They are a complicated mess.

 

[transmanche]

In the grand scheme of things i.e. my wife, no one cares. Its just news.

Just another unnecessary outside broadcast, because the news producers think that unless the reporter is standing at a station we'll not understand what the story is about. When they could just save a few quid and do the report in the studio.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Just another unnecessary outside broadcast, because the news producers think that unless the reporter is standing at a station we'll not understand what the story is about. When they could just save a few quid and do the report in the studio.

I concur.

 

[swt_passenger]

The spend has not been cut, in fact McLoughlin confirmed the CP5 spend would stay at the original £38.5 billion.
The question is what does that money buy, and how long will it take.
NR doesn't have the resources to deliver the full set of projects, even if it had unlimited money.

Very true - shame that a significant number of posts in this thread are written as though the government really have announced financial cuts though. All the suggestions about wasting funds on HS2 therefore becoming even more irrelevant to the problem...

 

[Class 170101]

Mrs Louise Ellman (Liverpool, Riverside) (Lab/Co-op):

Network Rail certainly has many good achievements, but last January the Transport Select Committee warned that escalating costs and poor planning jeopardised the investment programme and, indeed, questioned whether that programme was ever realistic. Will the Secretary of State explain precisely what his statement means for the pause in electrification in the north and for the midland main line service?
Mr McLoughlin:

I congratulate the hon. Lady on being elected unopposed as the Chair of the Transport Select Committee. The pause is exactly what I said—a pausing of that particular scheme until I receive the report from Sir Peter Hendy. I made it clear that the midland electrification would always follow the Great Western, which would always be the priority. When people see some of the challenges facing the Great Western electrification, they will certainly understand that.

On the MML scheme it's delay might not do him any good for his election chances in 2020 in his seat in Derbyshire. However perhaps not as bad as feared maybe?

 

[Haydn1971]

Haydn, HS2 is of no use to anyone currently using the MML unless you live within 5 miles of either Meadowhall or Toton.

Oh come on... You don't still believe that do you

 

[class26]

Very true - shame that a significant number of posts in this thread are written as though the government really have announced financial cuts though. All the suggestions about wasting funds on HS2 therefore becoming even more irrelevant to the problem...

you don't think that may be just a little OTT? You would still do the project, no delays, at x3 the cost like GWML, assuming you can find additional resources? Or would you delay to learn lessons and maybe deliver for a lower cost?

I agree with you. There seems to be massive over reaction on today`s` announcement.

Lets just examine the precise words used in the announcement -


On the MML

"So work on electrification will be PAUSED.
I want it to be done and DONE WELL.
It WILL be part of our future plans for the route."

Nowhere does it say cancelled. Simply paused to look at costs to make it better.

On TP

"Current work on electrification will be paused.
Because we need to be much MORE AMBITIOUS for that route (HS3 ?)
Building a powerhouse for the north with a fast high capacity Transpennine electric route.
We are working with businesses and cities in the north to MAKE THAT HAPPPEN"

Nowhere does it say cancelled, just paused. Its all positive. Less haste more gain.

I see only positive

IF, and its a big if these schemes were to be cancelled it goes against everything this country and the west are doing. We are desperate to get away from reliance on diesel and electrification is the only answer. We need electrification to assist in our CO2 targets. Scrapping these schemes is not an option however much it appeals to the prejudice of some on here.

 

[RichmondCommu]

Oh come on... You don't still believe that do you

Yes I do. As regular user of the MML to visit family and friends and to watch the mighty if slightly rubbish Derby County, it's not what I believe but what I know! In terms of HS2 the East Midlands is very low down on the list of priorities. Up until now for many people living in the East and North Midlands that was fine as they knew substantial investment was coming their way through MML improvements. All that positive news ended today.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I agree with you. There seems to be massive over reaction on today`s` announcement.

Lets just examine the precise words used in the announcement -


On the MML

"So work on electrification will be PAUSED.
I want it to be done and DONE WELL.
It WILL be part of our future plans for the route."

Once you've paused a project its very easy to stop it all together. Simply because the funding for it has been transferred to the GWML and in the next five years the transport budget will be further slashed. This was a golden opportunity to provide better transport links for the East Midlands and now the moment has gone. Oh well if its right for the SNCF it must be right for the East Midlands.

 

[cjmillsnun]

I agree with you. There seems to be massive over reaction on today`s` announcement.

Lets just examine the precise words used in the announcement -


On the MML

"So work on electrification will be PAUSED.
I want it to be done and DONE WELL.
It WILL be part of our future plans for the route."

Nowhere does it say cancelled. Simply paused to look at costs to make it better.

On TP

"Current work on electrification will be paused.
Because we need to be much MORE AMBITIOUS for that route (HS3 ?)
Building a powerhouse for the north with a fast high capacity Transpennine electric route.
We are working with businesses and cities in the north to MAKE THAT HAPPPEN"

Nowhere does it say cancelled, just paused. Its all positive. Less haste more gain.

I see only positive

IF, and its a big if these schemes were to be cancelled it goes against everything this country and the west are doing. We are desperate to get away from reliance on diesel and electrification is the only answer. We need electrification to assist in our CO2 targets. Scrapping these schemes is not an option however much it appeals to the prejudice of some on here.

Paused is government speak for "we don't have the money, so we'll pretend we'll do it later."

 

[RichmondCommu]

Paused is government speak for "we don't have the money, so we'll pretend we'll do it later."

Or alternatively keep paying the increased fares passengers and we'll pretend (he he, ha ha, guffaw) to improve the routes that you travel on. Like hell they will.

 

[HSTEd]

"Paused" means "Axed but we won't announce it till someone important dies or gets married or there is a terrorist attack or some other extreme newsworthy event".

 

[EM2]

Isn't the £38.5bn cost a result of the ORR telling NR that they had to do more with less?
If the ORR maybe hadn't screwed NR down so tightly, this mightn't have been an issue, and the work could have been done for how much NR had said it would cost in the first place.

 

[RichmondCommu]

"Paused" means "Axed but we won't announce it till someone important dies or gets married or there is a terrorist attack or some other extreme newsworthy event".

Ed, we've had our differences over the last couple of years but on this occasion I completely agree with you. Say good bye to any further electrification on conventional routes as the Government can't be bothered with the expense. Bravo!

 

[bnm]

What a shame that all the needed projects in the regions are having to be shelved because there isn't the money. Just one unnecessery project could have been ditched.

HS2.

Too expensive. Totally unnecessary.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nevertheless, it is irrelevant to NR's present issues. It's a completely separate government funding stream to NR's enhancement budget.

No it's not. One government. One pot. Georgie boy in No. 11 has the final say on where money is spent.