Of course they can, and the NRCoC even confirms they can!The term "journey" clearly means from origin to destination, which may or may not involve a change of trains. A PTE cannot simply redefine that term on a whim!
That's a very different restriction from the only currently imposed, as it would stop you from making journeys which involved changing after 06:30 at Moorfields, Liverpool Central, Hooton, Hamilton Square, Birkenhead North, Sandhills, Kirkdale, Edge Hill or Huyton. Whereas the current situation only seem to prevent journeys which involve changing after 06:30 at Lime Street or Liverpool South Parkway. So your 'simplification' would actually reduce the passenger benefit offered by the PTE's Saveaway product.If the T&Cs want to allow you to only board trains at certain times, and you then get penalised for changing, then they should not refer to journeys and simply use plain and simple English and say it how it is.
For example they could say "Not valid for boarding any train between 0631 and 0929" that would be very clear and make perfect sense.
A PTE cannot simply redefine that term on a whim!
Which is pretty much what the NRCoC already says:In terms of clarifying the issue overall in the NRCoC, could this be addressed by including something along the lines of 'Where passengers are travelling on rail services when using non-National Rail tickets (for example, products issued by PTEs), all parts of these Conditions of Carriage continue to apply, except for where the terms and conditions of the non-National Rail ticket in relation to traveling on the relevant rail journey are different to those of the NRCoC, in which case the terms and conditions of the ticket are applicable'.
NRCoC said:If a ticket entitles you to any goods or services from another party (including the right to travel in another partys transport services), it is also evidence of a contract between you and that other party. The conditions relating to these additional goods or services may be different, and will be obtainable from that other party.
That would make things so much easier - "Not valid on trains that arrive at or depart Liverpool Central or Lime Street after 0645 and before 0900." No need for any discussion about "journey" and whatnot then.
...the only way to make a connection on a rail journey in the Merseytravel area without a station-to-station walk that *does* pass through a barrier is at Liverpool Lime St.
There's also Liverpool South Parkway with the Northern Line platforms separate from the City Line/mainline platforms
Is there actually a ticket barrier between the two, though? If there isn't, there's not a problem.
That's what I meant, each end has it's own set of barriers.
Which is pretty much what the NRCoC already says:
It doesn't need to, as it isn't a case of one set of conditions 'winning' over another set. Merely that the other set of conditions apply.It doesn't say which has precedence.
If a ticket entitles you to the services included as part of the Saveaway product from Merseytravel (including the right to travel in another partys transport services), it is also evidence of a contract between you and Merseytravel. The conditions relating to the Saveaway product may be different, and will be obtainable from Merseytravel.
To be honest, and I don't think I'll be popular, I think PTE tickets *should* be able to override certain terms of the NRCoC, because the whole point of a joint tariff is that it has a unified set of T&Cs (so far as ticketing goes) across all modes of transport.
Therefore I have no issue with this term as it stands.
I don't see why there is any need for a discussion about what a journey means, as it is made 100% clear what it means in this case - a journey for the purposes of the ticket restrictions is delimited by a railway ticket barrier or boarding a bus. There is no question of what that means. And as someone says, this has always been the definition used on the Saveaway, so it can't have been that much of a problem on a ticket that is over 30 years old!
What some people are doing are applying the definition of "journey" per the NRCoC to a context to which that definition is irrelevant. The definition of "journey" per the NRCoC is relevant only to the use of that word within the NRCoC. It has no relevance outside.
Think of it this way - if it used the word "fish" instead of "journey", would there be an issue of it overriding the NRCoC? No, of course not (though it would be a little silly). So there is no issue with the fact that the word "journey" has two meanings here, as each is clearly and explicitly defined in each document as to its context within that document.
And in this case, the "arrival at Liverpool" definition would have exactly the same effect on this journey as the definition currently used, as (that I know of) the only way to make a connection on a rail journey in the Merseytravel area without a station-to-station walk that *does* pass through a barrier is at Liverpool Lime St.
It doesn't need to, as it isn't a case of one set of conditions 'winning' over another set. Merely that the other set of conditions apply.
Simply replace the appropriate words (my bold):
But how can you have two sets of conditions apply simultaneously when there in conflict with each other, in this case the definition of a journey?
Again, back to the issue as to whether the NRCoC can be overwritten for travel on National Rail services.
That was what I was trying to do, was it not?
That's a very different restriction from the only currently imposed, as it would stop you from making journeys which involved changing after 06:30 at Moorfields, Liverpool Central, Hooton, Hamilton Square, Birkenhead North, Sandhills, Kirkdale, Edge Hill or Huyton. Whereas the current situation only seem to prevent journeys which involve changing after 06:30 at Lime Street or Liverpool South Parkway. So your 'simplification' would actually reduce the passenger benefit offered by the PTE's Saveaway product.
It doesn't need to, as it isn't a case of one set of conditions 'winning' over another set. Merely that the other set of conditions apply.
Simply replace the appropriate words (my bold):
They don't conflict. Each defines a journey for its own purposes. There is no need for them to be read cross-purposes.
There's no conflict at all. The NRCoC says that Merseytravel's conditions apply for the Saveaway product.But how can you have two sets of conditions apply simultaneously when there in conflict with each other, in this case the definition of a journey?
Well clearly you have been told about the restrictions.NRCoC said:You can:
Start, break or resume your journey using trains on which your ticket is valid unless you are told about particular restrictions that apply to the use of your ticket.
But wouldn't that make most of the last 75 posts completely pointless?
(FWIW, I quite agree)
Notwithstanding that I don't agree that the conditions of a PTE product necessarily have to be 'compliant' with the NRCoC, I don't see any 'non-compliance' or incompatibility in this situation.Pretty much what it says now with minimal alteration but now fully compliant with the NRCoC.
There's no conflict at all. The NRCoC says that Merseytravel's conditions apply for the Saveaway product.
If you're still unsure, the introduction the NRCoC says:
Well clearly you have been told about the restrictions.
And as tony_mac highlighted way back in post #16, the NRCoC doesn't appear to define the meaning of the word 'journey', merely the definition of a 'break of journey' (condition 16) - whereas Merseytravel clearly and explicitly state exactly what defines a 'journey' in the Saveaway conditions.
Notwithstanding that I don't agree that the conditions of a PTE product necessarily have to be 'compliant' with the NRCoC, I don't see any 'non-compliance' or incompatibility in this situation.
NRCoC say - leaving a train at Lime Street Low Level to join another at Lime Street High Level is not a break of journey, hence one journey;
Saveaway terms say - leaving a train at Lime Street Low Level to join another at Lime Street High Level is considered to have started a second journey;
Only because the word "journey" is used by both. If you replace it on the Merseytravel ticket with "trip", the conflict no longer exists and the ticket restriction (just like any other) simply overlays the NRCoC nicely. It's one journey (per the NRCoC), however the time restriction does not permit a change of trains after a certain time unless done without crossing a ticket barrier.
There is me thinking that the whole debate started with the use of the word "journey" by Merseytravel.
I hope you haven't only just realised that Neil.
I would agree, if this were a standard 'National Rail' ticket. But it's not.The restrictions which must be consistent with the NRCoC?
If there is no requirement for individual ticket restrictions to comply with the NRCoC, then what is the point of large swathes of the NRCoC? We may as well remove the entirety of Conditions 10 to 20, 29 to 37, plus possibly more since whoever prices a fare can set whatever conditions they want to the ticket.
There's no conflict here for two reasons.Then we are back to this conflict below:
NRCoC say - leaving a train at Lime Street Low Level to join another at Lime Street High Level is not a break of journey, hence one journey;
Saveaway terms say - leaving a train at Lime Street Low Level to join another at Lime Street High Level is considered to have started a second journey;
And as the Saveaway product has particular restrictions regarding the trains on which the ticket is valid (that are widely advertised) it's clear that you can't use the ticket if you pass through a barrier after 06:30.NRCoC said:You can:
Start, break or resume your journey using trains on which your ticket is valid unless you are told about particular restrictions that apply to the use of your ticket.
I would agree, if this were a standard 'National Rail' ticket. But it's not.
First thing you need to do is to stand back a bit and look at what is being purchased. The customer isn't purchasing a normal 'National Rail' ticket with the fare and conditions set by a TOC. What they are buying is a PTE product. Merseytravel is not an agent of any TOC, the reverse is true - the TOC (along with bus companies, etc) is an agent of Merseytravel in delivering the services offered as part of the Saveaway product
There's no conflict here for two reasons.
The first reason is that the NRCoC states that Merseytravel's Saveaway conditions apply when using a Saveaway ticket. So you follow the Saveaway rules.
The second reason is in the part of my post you didn't quote. The NRCoC says:
And as the Saveaway product has particular restrictions regarding the trains on which the ticket is valid (that are widely advertised) it's clear that you can't use the ticket if you pass through a barrier after 06:30.
So who is to say that the train's rules must trump all?
Quite simply, no one is saying that. The NRCoC is only relevant when travelling on National Rail services.
The PTE can do wwhatever it likes with buses.
When you buy a ticket to travel on scheduled services on the National Rail Network you make an agreement with the Train Companies whose trains the ticket allows you to use.