(Suggestions for) Next Scottish medium to large project?

[najaB]

So, in just over a month the Borders Railway will be open, and Edinburgh-Glasgow electrification is proceeding along nicely. Electrification to the Fife Circle and on to Aberdeen is pretty much committed as is making the necessary changes for hourly Inverness to Aberdeen services.

Given that both airport links are dead, what would you like to see next? Leaving out mega projects like a Glasgow north-south tunnel, what else could be on the cards in the £250M to £750M range? Please don't shoot down any suggestions out of course, but feel free to suggest improvements. If you're suggesting a project, I'd love to know what benefit you feel it brings. I doubt the policy-makers read this forum, but there might be some good ideas out there that haven't occurred to them yet.

My contribution: double track and colour-light signals between Inverness and Dingwall. It would make the Far North and Kyle lines *so* much more reliable and allow service improvements between Inverness and Tain where there are many houses springing up. At present there's a very irregular service pattern - taking Invergordon as an example, southbound to Inverness you have: 0651 (39m) 0720 (2h 22m) 0942 (1h 19m) 1131 (3h 29m) 1550 (16m) 1606 (3h 19m) 1925 (40m) 2005 (2h 35m) 2240. Getting even close to a clockface timetable would make the train more attractive.

The long single track section between Clacnacharry and Dingwall (with only one intermediate TEP) means that even a small delay makes the whole service go to pot.

 

[jopsuk]

(more) double track to Inverness, to improve frequency on the Highland Mainline. With enabling works for subsequent electrification.

Beyond that: electrification of Inverness-Aberdeen and the Waverley, plus more of the far reaches of the Glasgow South Western (all the way via Dumfries to Carlisle, Girvan, East Kilbride)

 

[Dawg]

I love the fact that a decent portion of an old mainline has reopened. So with that in mind, a complete and utter pipe dream, but I always thought that the Spean Bridge - Fort Augustus branch which closed in the 1930's should have connected to Inverness. Fort William - Inverness - Aberdeen services?


Realistically I'd like Hawick to be reached from Tweedbank - ultimately Carlisle, but I can't see that happening.

Dumfries - Castle Douglas - Stranraer again?


Just thinking out loud...

 

[Philip Phlopp]

So, in just over a month the Borders Railway will be open, and Edinburgh-Glasgow electrification is proceeding along nicely. Electrification to the Fife Circle and on to Aberdeen is pretty much committed as is making the necessary changes for hourly Inverness to Aberdeen services.

Given that both airport links are dead, what would you like to see next? Leaving out mega projects like a Glasgow north-south tunnel, what else could be on the cards in the £250M to £750M range? Please don't shoot down any suggestions out of course, but feel free to suggest improvements. If you're suggesting a project, I'd love to know what benefit you feel it brings. I doubt the policy-makers read this forum, but there might be some good ideas out there that haven't occurred to them yet.

My contribution: double track and colour-light signals between Inverness and Dingwall. It would make the Far North and Kyle lines *so* much more reliable and allow service improvements between Inverness and Tain where there are many houses springing up. At present there's a very irregular service pattern - taking Invergordon as an example, southbound to Inverness you have: 0651 (39m) 0720 (2h 22m) 0942 (1h 19m) 1131 (3h 29m) 1550 (16m) 1606 (3h 19m) 1925 (40m) 2005 (2h 35m) 2240. Getting even close to a clockface timetable would make the train more attractive.

The long single track section between Clacnacharry and Dingwall (with only one intermediate TEP) means that even a small delay makes the whole service go to pot.

I'd very much like to see the plans for St Andrews progressed, together with the re-opening of the Levenmouth route.

I'd love to see the route joined up, with the line from St Andrews to Leven re-opened, but the business case for that wouldn't possibly come close to stacking up, which is a bit unfortunate, as the operational flexibility a through route between Edinburgh and Dundee via Leven and St Andrews would be useful and attractive to additional customers.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Sort out the triangle at Carstairs to give all three routes a decent speed profile.
Services heading to Edinburgh are painfully slow at the moment.
It's in the pipeline but not yet firmed up into a definite project.
The formation of the almost straight direct line linking the Carlisle and Edinburgh routes is still there, with sheep grazing on it.

 

[Haydn1971]

Sort out the triangle at Carstairs to give all three routes a decent speed profile.

My understanding from a friend in Transport Scotland is that the idea for HS-Scotland started out from a plan for a new 3km ish chord at Carstairs - then a politician got involved and "bigged" it up from there

 

[bluenoxid]

St Andrews and Levenmouth!

The alternative is extending the tram.

 

[DarloRich]

None - unless they find the money from somewhere and fund almost all of the cost via Scottish government sources

 

[Senex]

Sort out the triangle at Carstairs to give all three routes a decent speed profile.
Services heading to Edinburgh are painfully slow at the moment.
It's in the pipeline but not yet firmed up into a definite project.
The formation of the almost straight direct line linking the Carlisle and Edinburgh routes is still there, with sheep grazing on it.

The alignment is perfect, except that at the Float Junction end the curvature would not allow a real high-speed junction. Dare one hope that any restoration will be done properly (since this is Scotland, not the North of England), with a new bridge over the river to allow a gentler curve and a proper 125-mph junction?

 

[Techniquest]

Yes please to speeding up Carlisle to Edinburgh journeys! You can almost drink an entire cup of coffee in the time it takes to go around that curve at Carstairs! OK a slight exaggeration...

I'm not familiar with the old formation mentioned, but it sounds good as long as it's done properly. No single lead junctions, no single track nonsense, decent speed junctions then we'll be onto a winner!

Not a great deal comes to mind for new Scottish projects if I'm honest, although by the time my commute to work is done I'll probably have something considered.

Bring on covering a new (well, to me and the rest of this generation at least!) mainline, that's not something I've done in the UK for a few years now! Rather looking forward to my trip to Edinburgh, hard to believe it's a little over a month away!

 

[Bald Rick]

Comprehensive Border Control at Gretna and Berwick.

 

[Altnabreac]

So, in just over a month the Borders Railway will be open, and Edinburgh-Glasgow electrification is proceeding along nicely. Electrification to the Fife Circle and on to Aberdeen is pretty much committed as is making the necessary changes for hourly Inverness to Aberdeen services.

Given that both airport links are dead, what would you like to see next? Leaving out mega projects like a Glasgow north-south tunnel, what else could be on the cards in the £250M to £750M range? Please don't shoot down any suggestions out of course, but feel free to suggest improvements. If you're suggesting a project, I'd love to know what benefit you feel it brings. I doubt the policy-makers read this forum, but there might be some good ideas out there that haven't occurred to them yet.

My contribution: double track and colour-light signals between Inverness and Dingwall. It would make the Far North and Kyle lines *so* much more reliable and allow service improvements between Inverness and Tain where there are many houses springing up. At present there's a very irregular service pattern - taking Invergordon as an example, southbound to Inverness you have: 0651 (39m) 0720 (2h 22m) 0942 (1h 19m) 1131 (3h 29m) 1550 (16m) 1606 (3h 19m) 1925 (40m) 2005 (2h 35m) 2240. Getting even close to a clockface timetable would make the train more attractive.

The long single track section between Clacnacharry and Dingwall (with only one intermediate TEP) means that even a small delay makes the whole service go to pot.

Inverness - Dingwall resignal/redouble is a good call. Would reduce the pressure on the FNL and Kyle timetables which are very prone to delays/cancellations if one train gets out of alignment.

The 3 mega projects of Scottish Rail over the next 20 years are going to be:

• Edinburgh - Glasgow (and Carstairs) High Speed Rail
• Glasgow North - South rail tunnel
• Inverkeithing - Halbeath (Perth?) new (fairly high speed) rail line.

None of these have funding yet and only the first two and half of these are current government policy so it would be good to see Perth added to the long term plans and all 3 projects developed and funded.

In terms of smaller projects that are not currently funded or even identified in the Strategic Transport Projects Review, I'll suggest 3 projects of different types:

Reopening - Levenmouth

• Biggest non rail connected settlement in Scotland
• High levels of economic deprivation in area to be served
• Excellent potential commuter catchment to Edinburgh

Electrification - Ayr - Girvan & Kilmarnock - Barassie

• Opportunity to increase Girvan service to hourly
• Change to provide all direct Glasgow trains
• New stations at Belmont and Ayr Hospital/South Ayr Park & Ride
• Cross platform interchange at Girvan to a 2 hourly Stranraer service
• New regular hourly electrified, Glasgow - Kilmarnock - Ayr service with new station at Gatehead (for Crosshouse)

Service Recast - Shotts line post 2019 electrification

• Move from hourly stopper and hourly semi fast to 2 x semi fast service with local stoppers at each end.
• Local half hourly stopper West Calder - Haymarket service (using a new platform 5)
• Local hourly stopper Glasgow Central LL - Whifflet - Shotts service (extending 1 of the Whifflet trains)
• 1 x Semi Fast hourly Glasgow Central HL - Bellshill - Holytown - Shotts - Fauldhouse - West Calder - Livingston South - Haymarket - Edinburgh
• 1 x Semi Fast hourly Glasgow Central LL - Blantyre - Hamilton - Motherwell - Cleland - Shotts - Addiewell - West Calder - Livingston South - Haymarket - Edinburgh. This train to be an extension of an existing Hamilton Circle service to give hourly semi fast trains to Edinburgh from Blantyre, Hamilton and Motherwell.

Those 3 projects would give some good service enhancements across the central belt, improving access to the rail network in some deprived and underserved communities.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Once the last remaining suburban lines around Glasgow have been electrified the focus will need to shift up to Fife, Central Scotland and Tayside. When these lines are electrified, I think there could be some merit in doing it as part of a wider project to improve the rail network. That would could encompass the Leven and St Andrews reopenings as well as reopening stations on a redoubled Ladybank-Perth line. Electrification could enable a local rail service for Tayside, with 2tph from Carnoustie (or similar) to St Andrews and possibly even a local rail service to Perth, if combined with reopened stations on the Dundee-Perth line which could tie in to housing developments.

 

[oldman]

Reopening - Levenmouth

• Biggest non rail connected settlement in Scotland
• High levels of economic deprivation in area to be served
• Excellent potential commuter catchment to Edinburgh

I am interested in the connection between tackling deprivation and reopening railways. As I see it, someone from, say, Buckhaven able to find decently-paid work in the Edinburgh area (it needs to be decently-paid because of the cost of commuting), can already travel from Markinch or Kirkcaldy or by limited-stop bus. Not ideal, but perfectly feasible.

A direct train may result in more housing developments for better-off commuters, which would reduce the percentage unemployment rate in the area a little, but does nothing for the existing unemployed except maybe a little trickle-down.

What they need is more job opportunities (probably lower-paid) within cheaper travelling distance i.e. in Central Fife, and/or help to equip themselves to compete for better-paid work elsewhere. Reopening railways is of little relevance.

The same might be said about Hawick, another deprived area touted for rail reopening.

 

[chorleyjeff]

Comprehensive Border Control at Gretna and Berwick.

Nah.
The border will be porous like Ireland/ UK.

 

[adrock1976]

Reopen the line to Leven.

Extend the present Glasgow QS - Alloa service to Dunfermline or Rosyth. The track already exists beyond Alloa, and would improve public transport links betwen Glasgow/Stirling and Fife.

With the enhancements to the Inverness & Aberdeen Joint Railway, the Aberdeen - Inverurie local short workings to form part of Aberdeen Crossrail, with a northward reopening towards Peterhead/Fraserburgh, and southward to Banchory/Ballater/Stonehaven. Also, have trains calling at Portlethen every 2 hours initially (either the Glasgow or Edinburgh services), then gradually increase the frequency when there is a need to do so.

After the wires reach Dunblane, Edinburgh Crossrail to be reinstated by running Dunblane - Gorebridge services. This would reinstate through services from Edinburgh Park to Newcraighall, which were withdrawn for the Airdrie - Bathgate reopening, and transferred to Fife loop services, before being reduced to the present Waverley - Newcraighall shuttle.

Reopen the Glasgow Central Railway from Bridgeton Cross to Carmyle, joining the Rutherglen & Coatbridge Railway. With a reopened station at London Road, this would improve public transport access to Parkhead Stadium and the Emirates Arena across the road in Barrowfield. Also of note, the G40 postcode area is one of the most deprived areas outside of London, and the Calton area (between Glasgow Cross and Bridgeton Cross) has the dubious honour of having the lowest life expectancy outwith London, where according to a World Health Organisation report circa 2009, the people residing in the Calton are not expected to live beyond the age of 56 years. With the reopening of Glasgow Cross station (the platform is still in situ), this would provide an interchange with Glasgow Crossrail.

Also, reopen the Glasgow Central Railway westbound from Finnieston/Exhibition Centre to Maryhill Central. This would allow somewhere for additional Glasgow Central LL to run to, and would provide an interchange with Glasgow Underground at Kelvinbridge, reopen Botanic Gardens station too. Maryhill Central would also provide better access to the railway network from neighbouring Ruchill (where Jimmy Sommerville is originally from) and the Wyndford (where Robert Carlyle is originally from) too.

Develop a tram system in Glasgow, with one of a north - south Clyde crossing making use of the Clyde Arc Bridge (the local New Labour mouthpiece the Evening Times nicknames it "Squinty Bridge", with the neighbouring Tradeston pedestrian bridge nicknamed "Squiggly Bridge". Honestly, nobody else would ever have thought of those unimaginative nicknames). This bridge has a bus lane in each direction, but hardley any regular passenger service buses ever use it. The tram system could run to the new Southern General Hospital, and onwards to Braehead Centre, Renfrew Cross, and the airport.

There could also be another Clyde crossing between Renfrew & Yoker, replacing the ferry (or whatever it is nowadays), then using the former Caledonian Railway alignment west to Clydebank and eastbound towards Partick and/or Exhibition Centre, meeting up again at Clyde Arc Bridge.

Obviously, the tram proposal mentioned above should not just be looked at in isolation, but as a component enabling scheme as part of High Speed Rail (ideally the New North British HS Railway running from the former College Goods Yard at Bellgrove eastwards following the M8 to Edinburgh then south to Newcastle), and in combination with Glasgow Crossrail.

 

[Altnabreac]

I am interested in the connection between tackling deprivation and reopening railways. As I see it, someone from, say, Buckhaven able to find decently-paid work in the Edinburgh area (it needs to be decently-paid because of the cost of commuting), can already travel from Markinch or Kirkcaldy or by limited-stop bus. Not ideal, but perfectly feasible.

A direct train may result in more housing developments for better-off commuters, which would reduce the percentage unemployment rate in the area a little, but does nothing for the existing unemployed except maybe a little trickle-down.

What they need is more job opportunities (probably lower-paid) within cheaper travelling distance i.e. in Central Fife, and/or help to equip themselves to compete for better-paid work elsewhere. Reopening railways is of little relevance.

The same might be said about Hawick, another deprived area touted for rail reopening.

The evidence from elsewhere in Scotland is that rail reopenings can have a positive economic effect.

There are a number of linked issues:

• Easier access to better paid jobs for people currently living in the area
• Attracting new people to the area (often via new build housing)
• Improving facilities / employment in the area as population expands
• Stopping out migration of young people from the area who want access to higher education and higher quality jobs
• Encouraging young people originally from the area who have left for Higher Education to return in future
• Attracting new businesses to the deprived area due to potential for reverse commuting and access to a wider labour market

If you look at a reopening like Bathgate in 1985 then 30 years on there has been a big upturn in the local economy, deprivation is down, employment up and of the rail users at Bathgate / Livingston North / Uphall something like a third of the total demand is reverse commuting from Edinburgh / Glasgow to employers in the area, rather than it all being about a commuter belt for Edinburgh (although that is still important).

In Fife it is obvious that Dunfermline is much more prosperous than Methil and good transport links, especially access to Edinburgh, are an important part of that.

Now somewhere like Levenmouth (or equally Hawick) won't benefit from all these factors immediately, these are long term 20-30 year investments but they do make a difference to the economy over time.

That's why I'd support a reopeing like Levenmouth over one like St Andrews because the economic boost is needed much more in Methil.

Governments don't invest in railways because they think they are a "Good Thing" but because of hard economic benefits for local areas. Sometimes these are long term projects (so can more difficult to sell to politicians interested in the next election).

Successive Scottish administrations have been more willing than most politicians to look at the long term benefits of rail investment but increasingly transport investment funding is likely to be linked to providing postive benefits to areas of concentrated deprivation.

 

[oldman]

So nothing for today's NEETs, and the communities they live in, but maybe in 20-30 years time...

The problem with Levenmouth is location. It is very much at the upper end of what is acceptible for commuting, both in time and in cost, and in any case you can use Markinch/Levenmouth Parkway. Speeding up the main line is the priority for me.

Similarly, compared with West Lothian, right on the M8 and close to the heart of the country, it has struggled to attract new employment - not I suspect because there isn't a local train service. No doubt numbers will be crunched, but it does not look a good idea to me.

 

[najaB]

No doubt numbers will be crunched, but it does not look a good idea to me.

The factor in favour of Leven is that the track is still in place (though well rusted) and the trackbed is clear(ish). So I would actually class that as a small project as a few years ago it was expected to be deliverable for under £20M.

Edit: Just checked, the cost is now estimated to be around £75M! That's getting close to medium-scale project territory.

Keep them coming though, everyone.

 

[lancastrian]

My suggestions would be as follows:-

• Dyce to Frazerburgh
• Maud Junction to Peterhead
• Aberdeen to Peterculter (Deeside Line)
• Dumfries to Kirkcudbright
• Tweedbank to Hawick (at least)
• St. Andrews
• Leven

These are just my first thoughts, all are both possible and practical. In my opinion anyway.

I just wish that more reopenings would happen in England as well.

 

[Blindtraveler]

I cant really add much, but Double track Ladybank, wire up the GSW and maybe platform extentions at many stations.

 

[Class 170101]

Extend the wires to Aberdeen from both Dunblane and Haymarket including the Fife Circle.

Improve service frequency on the Highland Main Line.

 

[najaB]

Improve service frequency on the Highland Main Line.

Good idea - any suggestions as to how? Are you thinking loops, double tracking, resignalling, re-routing, any/all of the above?

Something I've wondering about is running doubled units that split/join at Perth for Edinburgh and Glasgow.

 

[NotATrainspott]

So nothing for today's NEETs, and the communities they live in, but maybe in 20-30 years time...

The problem with Levenmouth is location. It is very much at the upper end of what is acceptible for commuting, both in time and in cost, and in any case you can use Markinch/Levenmouth Parkway. Speeding up the main line is the priority for me.

Similarly, compared with West Lothian, right on the M8 and close to the heart of the country, it has struggled to attract new employment - not I suspect because there isn't a local train service. No doubt numbers will be crunched, but it does not look a good idea to me.

Regardless, the reopening isn't as complicated as it is for some other routes. Reopening St Andrews requires adding an entirely new train service through Fife to Edinburgh, whereas Leven can be accommodated by extending existing services so there is no additional capacity requirement. The Alloa reopening happened in not-dissimilar circumstances, although it could piggyback on the need for coal traffic, while again not dissimilar circumstances exist for a possible reopening of the Grangemouth branch.

Rail reopenings are never magic wands which cure all social ills in a location but they won't do any harm, and will help advance other areas of social and economic policy. Unemployment may come down only as a consequence of an influx of people moving there to commute, but those extra commuters are then using public transport to get to work rather than living elsewhere and driving. Spreading out population growth also helps to keep house prices balanced across more of the Central Belt, so people aren't priced away from areas where they want to live.

 

[Bevan Price]

I'd very much like to see the plans for St Andrews progressed, together with the re-opening of the Levenmouth route.

I'd love to see the route joined up, with the line from St Andrews to Leven re-opened, but the business case for that wouldn't possibly come close to stacking up, which is a bit unfortunate, as the operational flexibility a through route between Edinburgh and Dundee via Leven and St Andrews would be useful and attractive to additional customers.

Flexible - but slow. (1961 timetable) - Dundee to Edinburgh via St. Andrews & Leven took about 3 hours, compared with about 2 hours for stopping trains via the direct route. And almost 40 miles passing through small towns and a lot of sparsely populated countryside - so to justify reopening would be a difficult financial case. Restoring Leuchars to St. Andrews & Thornton Jn to Leven might be slightly easier to justify. For similar reasons, restoring rail to places like Fraserburgh or Peterhead would (regrettably) be difficult to finance.

 

[Altnabreac]

So nothing for today's NEETs, and the communities they live in, but maybe in 20-30 years time...

Well if you don't want to take a long term view of investment then fine, but what I want in a Transport Minister is someone who takes the opposite view to you.

As regards NEETs I believe the current preferred terminology in Scotland is MCMC as NEET is considered pejorative by some people:
http://www.gov.scot/Topics/Education/edandtrainingforyoungple/mcmc

 

[matchmaker]

Strathmore route? Much faster than via Dundee.

 

[Callum]

Strathmore route? Much faster than via Dundee.

I'm sure I read somewhere/heard somewhere that there was a possibility of this happening. I think it was in connection to the single section just south of Montrose, and the suggestion was Aberdeen to Glasgow services would go via Forfar.

And there I've mentioned another possible project, the doubling of the single line section south of Montrose. I now it'd be pretty expensive taking into account the two single line viaducts and the rock that piece of line currently cuts through.

 

[Aictos]

1. With regards to electrification, this ought to be extended from Haymarket via the Fife Circle in both directions as far as Dundee via both Perth and the Tay Bridge routes using a overhead OHL bar setup for the Forth Bridge as this will reduce the number of DMUs needed to be based at Haymarket with EMUs being used instead. These DMUs could be used in Scotland to strengthen existing services or used elsewhere in the UK.

2. Extend platforms to a minimum of 8 cars where the business case dictates it will be best for business on lines between Edinburgh to Glasgow & onto Inverness and Aberdeen.

3. Closure of smaller signalboxes with control being transferred to a centralised signalbox with the semaphone signalling being replaced by multiple aspect signalling.

4. Cancel the Lowland Sleeper with the rolling stock being used to provide a new Scotland to South West Sleeper, this would be offset by both WCML and ECML InterCity operators providing a later departure to Scotland at night then currently exists which would also provide a service which would offer more competition to the airlines which ply this route.

5. Look at infrastructure improvements across the region such as linespeed improvements, better use of passing loops, dual tracking formerly single track areas where the business case dedicates this is best for business.

6. Look at extending the Edinburgh Tram network.

7. Look at the possibility of extending the newly reopened Waverly route to Carlisle as well as potential OHL upgrading to the line.

 

[Carntyne]

Tunnel between Yoker Depot & Braehead's freight line under The Clyde.

Reopen Botanic Garden's line to provide an alternative to Partick - Hyndland.