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Thameslink and Southern

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jon0844

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The apple vs android argument often comes up a lot.

AIUI, apple is much more secure and 'locked down' out of the box, which is perfect for a corporate environment like this. Plus, in this amount, I doubt they are paying no where near the same price as you or I.

Unsure what you mean by ruggedised, but you can easily buy cases that give a lot of protection against anything you could put it up against.

From what I see, android tablets are not a great deal cheaper than apple (for a decent one, not one of the cheapy China rubbish specials)

I am not sure what they're using the iPads for, but can't imagine heavy security is that important. Android is now pretty secure anyway, but that's a topic for another conversation/thread.

Apple don't give very good discounts. No need to, and nobody who has one wants anyone else selling them cheap as it would impact on the very good resale values Apple devices have (never have I owned anything like an iPod, iPhone, MacBook or iMac for getting quite amazing money for selling second hand).

And for ruggedised, I meant a device that is not prone to having the screen break by sneezing on it (okay, gross exaggeration but you know what I mean). There are more solid tablets out there, but if they are putting them in 'kid-friendly' style cases then so be it.
 
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A-driver

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I am not sure what they're using the iPads for, but can't imagine heavy security is that important. Android is now pretty secure anyway, but that's a topic for another conversation/thread.



Apple don't give very good discounts. No need to, and nobody who has one wants anyone else selling them cheap as it would impact on the very good resale values Apple devices have (never have I owned anything like an iPod, iPhone, MacBook or iMac for getting quite amazing money for selling second hand).



And for ruggedised, I meant a device that is not prone to having the screen break by sneezing on it (okay, gross exaggeration but you know what I mean). There are more solid tablets out there, but if they are putting them in 'kid-friendly' style cases then so be it.


They choose iPads simply as that is what most other TOCs have gone with and so why has most relevant software already built for it and had relevant issues tried, tested and fixed.

The current iPad minis are used by platform staff largely as a portable P2 device. Drivers are getting them soon but the company havnt finalised what they want on them. East Coast drivers have iPad docks in the cabs and so certain features have to be locked out on the iPad obviously and that is what the current sticking point with drivers iPads is on GN/TL.
 

Class377/5

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Not quite a fact long term-there have been numerous meeting about this, a couple I have been to as a union rep, and it's actually very much up in the air depending on which directors or managers you speak to. At the latest meeting it was strongly hinted at the only ex FCC depots would have 700 work but until they know where units will be stabled day to day it is very much subject to change.

Your going to struggle to take stock out of Horsham and Littlehampton sidings for a start using only ex FCC drivers. Considering in a few days there no such thing a Southern driver only GTR drivers is easy to be sorted.

Yes it's up the air but the 2018 plan requires ex Southern drivers learn 700s, that's why 12 of them have been to Wildernrath for this process. That is fact. Without it the fleet plan doesn't work.

Of course transferring drivers from 'Southern' to Thameslink sorts out the issues currently being discussed.

But stabling plan is already in place. Eariler versions of it is already in public domain and certain features are required in all the plans. Don't forget the possible Southeastern drivers transfer too.
 

A-driver

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Your going to struggle to take stock out of Horsham and Littlehampton sidings for a start using only ex FCC drivers. Considering in a few days there no such thing a Southern driver only GTR drivers is easy to be sorted.



Yes it's up the air but the 2018 plan requires ex Southern drivers learn 700s, that's why 12 of them have been to Wildernrath for this process. That is fact. Without it the fleet plan doesn't work.



Of course transferring drivers from 'Southern' to Thameslink sorts out the issues currently being discussed.



But stabling plan is already in place. Eariler versions of it is already in public domain and certain features are required in all the plans. Don't forget the possible Southeastern drivers transfer too.


There will not be GTR drivers actually, it's very clear that there will be exFCC drivers on their existing (higher) pay and (more advanced) T&Cs and ex southern drivers with theirs. There is absolutely no intention to harmonise for the simple reason it will be far to expensive. This has been made clear since GTR took over in the autumn. Any southern drivers moved to TL will need to be upgraded to the ex FCC pay and conditions.

Southern drivers were recruited to do testing and commissioning jobs before the franchise winner was announced and so bares little relevance to the plan.

The stabling plan certainly isn't finalised, the GN appoints are hugely up in the air, that is why the pay deal took a while this year as the stabling plan has huge impact on an important T&C FCC drivers have-shared facets of work. If stabling was finalised then the pay talks would have been very different as the company would know which depots would get what work.

Taking trains out of littlehampton and Horsham won't automatically require Horsham or barnham drivers to sign them-ex FCC drivers could still do that on night shifts or early turns. Currently exFCC stock runs out of plenty of sidings which don't have drivers based there at all hours of day/night (cricklewood, Selhurst, welwyn, Hertford, letchworth, Hornsey).
 

Carlisle

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You can always give payment in lieu of notice.

Nevertheless it's still appalling.

Not the first time I believe Rail Gourmet have done that type of thing , I've met a few other former employees that didn't get much notice of their depots impending closure
 
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Bishopstone

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I presume the catering service required a subsidy from Govia, which they were no longer willing to pay?

I can well believe the GatEx trolleys ran at a loss, but the Coastway trolley seemed a better financial prospect.

With a few exceptions they were great staff, and I wish them well.

Once again, GatEx becomes even less 'premium'.
 

Class377/5

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There will not be GTR drivers actually, it's very clear that there will be exFCC drivers on their existing (higher) pay and (more advanced) T&Cs and ex southern drivers with theirs. There is absolutely no intention to harmonise for the simple reason it will be far to expensive. This has been made clear since GTR took over in the autumn. Any southern drivers moved to TL will need to be upgraded to the ex FCC pay and conditions.

Southern drivers were recruited to do testing and commissioning jobs before the franchise winner was announced and so bares little relevance to the plan.

The stabling plan certainly isn't finalised, the GN appoints are hugely up in the air, that is why the pay deal took a while this year as the stabling plan has huge impact on an important T&C FCC drivers have-shared facets of work. If stabling was finalised then the pay talks would have been very different as the company would know which depots would get what work.

Taking trains out of littlehampton and Horsham won't automatically require Horsham or barnham drivers to sign them-ex FCC drivers could still do that on night shifts or early turns. Currently exFCC stock runs out of plenty of sidings which don't have drivers based there at all hours of day/night (cricklewood, Selhurst, welwyn, Hertford, letchworth, Hornsey).

We'll see as there is quite a lot of assuming in your post that isn't currently the current thinking/plan. Time will tell.
 

jon0844

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I presume the catering service required a subsidy from Govia, which they were no longer willing to pay?

I can well believe the GatEx trolleys ran at a loss, but the Coastway trolley seemed a better financial prospect.

With a few exceptions they were great staff, and I wish them well.

Once again, GatEx becomes even less 'premium'.

I do think they could come back on the 700s as one trolley should be able to fit easier through the train, and journeys on some routes are now potentially very long (even if not everyone is going end to end).

I wonder if GoVia will bring them back, under different terms, and make a big deal of it as if it's a brand new idea. Like Apple reinventing a feature other phones have had for years (sorry to mention Apple yet again!).
 

talldave

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I do think they could come back on the 700s as one trolley should be able to fit easier through the train, and journeys on some routes are now potentially very long (even if not everyone is going end to end).

I wonder if GoVia will bring them back, under different terms, and make a big deal of it as if it's a brand new idea. Like Apple reinventing a feature other phones have had for years (sorry to mention Apple yet again!).

I think it's ok on a catering thread? ;)

I doubt we'll see them back. I really don't think Govia care about the passenger experience. From the moment we've handed over our money we're just an irritation getting in the way of them playing with their trainset.

I just can't get over the despicable way the staff have been treated when the morons at head office have obviously had this planned for months :(
 

jon0844

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I think it's ok on a catering thread? ;)

I doubt we'll see them back. I really don't think Govia care about the passenger experience. From the moment we've handed over our money we're just an irritation getting in the way of them playing with their trainset.

I just can't get over the despicable way the staff have been treated when the morons at head office have obviously had this planned for months :(

I don't think it's that off topic, given people have been laid off with just a matter of days notice. And it all ties in with the discussions here about the way the company operates and treats staff, contractors and passengers alike.
 

Kite159

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GoVia must have worked out the cost of having a trolley service outweighs the benefits it brings.

Bit of a sh*ter for the poor catering staff through, hopefully they will get something from Rail Gourmet, just depends on their contract :(

Govia - Why have a trolley, that space can be used for more people to stand in when we run shorten formations due to leasing costs ;)
 
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radamfi

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Station catering is now much more high profile compared to the old days, especially with the presence of Starbucks, Costa etc. I would guess the sort of people who used to use train catering now probably prefer to throw away their money on overpriced coffee at the station instead.
 

jon0844

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Yes, but if I'm on a train for the best part of two hours (St Albans to Brighton) then that coffee won't last the whole trip!

I think there could be a market for trolleys on SOME trains at SOME times of the day, and perhaps they can come back but with an all new contract. I bet if they do, it will be announced as a brand new thing.

I guess it doesn't matter much though. With no seat back tables, it's going to be a pain to try and eat or drink anything on the 700s anyway!
 

sarahj

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Other staff going, there is a guy at Three Bridges, makes announcements etc, today was his last day, and few who do stuff like him. And Knollys house, Southern HQ for ages, even in BR days (where it had a staff bar), staff all moving from there to either near Kings X or GA house across the road. (or in the case of our brilliant rosters clerk, leaving for good rather than having to go to Kings X each day)


Mind I did hear a funny comment today. I told punters when they come back to work on monday it will be a new franchise and staff will be wearing grey rather than green. One guy got off the train muttering to others: 'Go ahead are ok, but those new lot Govia are rubbish'. errrrrrr:roll:
 
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Aictos

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I've heard that when Govia took over GN/TL us at LM were told by customers "the new company taking over Thameslink are awful" ermm... ;)

You can never please people can you.....
 

B&W

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You can never please people can you.....

Not a question of pleasing people, just provide a service that people are happy to use.

GTR are the Ryan air of TOCs and only aspire to the lowest common denominator on any aspect of service so its not surprising satisfaction levels are falling.

With airlines you do not have to use Ryan Air , competition means I can use other airlines offering a better service even at a higher price which I do. With GTR there is no 'other' service, and their so called 1st class is a third class hard seat with a soiled rag chucked over the top so its a case of lump it or use your car.

So like many others, I refuse to lump it on Southern/GTR and I use my car. Until the ORR sees sense and introduces proper competition things will not change.

Brian
 

Robertj21a

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Not a question of pleasing people, just provide a service that people are happy to use.

GTR are the Ryan air of TOCs and only aspire to the lowest common denominator on any aspect of service so its not surprising satisfaction levels are falling.

With airlines you do not have to use Ryan Air , competition means I can use other airlines offering a better service even at a higher price which I do. With GTR there is no 'other' service, and their so called 1st class is a third class hard seat with a soiled rag chucked over the top so its a case of lump it or use your car.

So like many others, I refuse to lump it on Southern/GTR and I use my car. Until the ORR sees sense and introduces proper competition things will not change.

Brian


The company name is Ryanair. I've used them about 200 times and never had a problem. You get what you pay for and, as long as you keep to the rules, there should be no problems.
 

redbutton

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GTR are the Ryan air of TOCs and only aspire to the lowest common denominator on any aspect of service so its not surprising satisfaction levels are falling.

And like Ryanair, GoVia make massive profits despite (or perhaps because of) their barebones service, so there's no incentive for investment and every incentive to cut back to the absolute minimum required by the franchise contract.

The catering situation is a perfect example of this. Sure, people liked it, but (presumably) it wasn't profitable and the franchise didn't require it, so it's gone.

As private companies without real competition, a TOC's first duty will always be to the shareholders, not the customers. Therefore, the only way to force any TOC to change is either to contractually mandate it (not going to happen under the current government and not possible until franchise renewal) or to hit them in the balance sheet.

From the aggrieved customer's point of view, that means taking delay repay in cash on every eligible journey. There are a couple of third-party services springing up to help with this, but it's still too difficult when there's no easy way to get "official" timing data for trains in the past.
 

MCR247

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Until the ORR sees sense and introduces proper competition things will not change.

Please explain to me what your idea of 'proper competition' is and how it would be an efficient use of capacity of the very busy Brighton mainline?
 

samuelmorris

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The rolling stock itself and the colour scheme is one of the few things I like about Southern. I used to have a fair regard for all the south London operators but in practice, I'm finding all the Govia operators suffering pretty dreadful punctuality every time I use them, but the least bad in my experience is actually Southeastern, despite the negative press. Southern's trains are nice, or were once, they quite often seem pretty dirty, and the delays, and particular delay management (or lack thereof) are horrendous. Thameslink is worse still but only being a core user, the routine delays tend not to impact me that much. I doubt very much any of these will change as it seems more down to the complexity of the networks than anything else, but being absolutely useless to the customer when delays do occur, is something I'd like to see change!

Being sat on a train service at Victoria that runs at least 3 or 4 times an hour, for half an hour, sitting through three calling point changes, with no announcements about my destination from the concourse PA whatsoever, only to be told 2 mins before its eventual departure it was going entirely elsewhere was frustrating beyond belief. Luckily it wasn't too far a walk from a tube station instead. Delays happen, but that was dire. I've travelled with Southern several times since, every occasion being between 5-15 minutes late. Not exactly disastrous, but compared to other operators that get a lot of stick for lateness (ahem), at present, I'm far from impressed. Still, at least their fares seem pretty reasonable.
 

ChiefPlanner

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I don't get this negative vibe on Southeastern - OK I know just a bit about the operations and use them fairly sporadically - but they deliver a decent enough , clean and non-threatening service (compared to a booted out ex French operator who ran them into the ground) , and even in BR days - pre Networkers - the service had not a lot going for it on the suburban side.

Presumably a classic case of a commuter "stress purchase" view ......
 

paul1609

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I commute daily with Southeastern from Headcorn in to London. Headcorn is the same distance from London as Hassocks but the Not High Speed annual season is15% higher than Any Permitted tickets from Hassocks and 25%than Thameslink Only.
Southeastern. Basingstoke is 2 miles further out again Southeastern tickets 15% more expensive. For our premium we get trains that are often not been cleaned have no working aircon and no working toilets because the retention tanks are full. The service is generally reliable I've only been more than 30 mins late in the last year but when it goes wrong it just fall to bits with no or conflicting information and a general feeling that nobodies really in charge.
 

Deepgreen

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Having been invited to take part in the GTR Passenger Panel poll today, I find it a bit bizarre that the home page image for the Panel is a DLR station!
 

B&W

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Please explain to me what your idea of 'proper competition' is and how it would be an efficient use of capacity of the very busy Brighton mainline?

Take a look at other transport industries where capacity is restricted and operators with different service models have to bid for capacity. Some operators would offer cheap squeeze them in service, others would offer an enhanced more comfortable service for higher greater margin fares. There is demand for both.
Just look at the tens of thousands of potential passengers every day using the A24, A217, M23, A22 rather than the service offering we have today. I would be quite happy to pay £50/£75 for a return ticket if the journey was as comfortable and as quick as my car is.

Regarding returns to shareholders any company which ignores such a large market of untapped income is not looking after its potential shareholder dividend potential, but is on a path to stagnation and eventual loss of its income.

Brian
 

Carlisle

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Take a look at other transport industries where capacity is restricted and operators with different service models have to bid for capacity. Some operators would offer cheap squeeze them in service, others would offer an enhanced more comfortable service for higher greater margin fares. There is demand for both.

That's completely identical to what was said 25+ years ago by the proponents of privatisation and just look how far we've come since then :D
 
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Stats

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Does anybody know what "improvements" we can expect to see with the new online ticket buying system introduced at the end of September? Will it still be Atos WebTIS based or a different engine?
 
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bicbasher

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I don't know if this was the case pre the Southern integration, but I saw an 8 car Southern branded 377 operate a London Bridge to Brighton TL service on Wednesday afternoon.

(I know FCC and later TL used leased Southern units in the past).
 
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