Extensions for 8 x what, 6 x what and 3 x what are all left unclear
Or you just switch the Scottish service to the West Coast franchise, given that the North West electrification schemes are removing the main obstacle that used to exist to integrating the Manchester-Scotland trains with that franchise, allowing the TransPennine franchise to concentrate on, er, running trains across the Pennines...
In terms of gauge clearance, or train length? As both usable platform length and gauge clearance by class are detailed in the sectional appendix, with platform specific restrictions given by class at some major stations where required.Would be interesting to know if anyone in Network Rail has a record of what fits each platform across the country in terms of multiple and loco-hauled. I suspect it's more a when required go figure it out ?
As both usable platform length and gauge clearance by class are detailed in the sectional appendix, with platform specific restrictions given by class at some major stations where required.
Yes, that would be nice. However, if the Manchester-Scotland Pendolinos were built to be the maximum length of the platforms along the route, then it would transfer the micro-fleet of 8 car sets from TPE to VTWC. I don't really know if it would make anything particularly easier, to be honest. I do seem to recall a statement from the DfT that TransPennine Express should be seen as the main InterCity operator for the north of England, so in that case it wouldn't be that silly to continue running the Manchester-Scotland services.
The following has appeared on the DfT website this morning http://maps.dft.gov.uk/northern-powerhouse/index.html
Or, given that very little time would be lost, could a subfleet of IEP be built for the non-Scottish London-Brum services, freeing up "proper" Pendolinos to perhaps run a Euston-Manchester service per hour through to Scotland?
SDO could presumably be used for short platforms.
Yes, that would be nice. However, if the Manchester-Scotland Pendolinos were built to be the maximum length of the platforms along the route, then it would transfer the micro-fleet of 8 car sets from TPE to VTWC. I don't really know if it would make anything particularly easier, to be honest. I do seem to recall a statement from the DfT that TransPennine Express should be seen as the main InterCity operator for the north of England, so in that case it wouldn't be that silly to continue running the Manchester-Scotland services.
Incidentally, and very selfishly, I use TPE's Scottish services regularly which go nowhere near the Pennines therefore I think they should change the name of the company; but to what? Northern Express?
Any more Pendolino-type trains will be micro-fleets, whoever operates them, as they will have to be based on the latest generation of Pendolinos and the IEP/AT300 orders have already cornered most of the likely market for UK-gauge intercity-type rolling stock over the next few years.
But if you are going to buy some sort of new generation Pendolino for Manchester/Liverpool-Scotland, then it surely makes far more sense for them to be placed with an operator with a similar train fleet - and which already operates the core service on most of the route between the North West and Scotland and thus could benefit from linking with its other services - rather than burdening TPE with managing something that bears precious little resemblance to any other type of train ever likely to be operated on its routes. The current 350 fleet may appear to fall into the micro-fleet category but they were acquired as a short-term stop-gap to free up 185s and cover the Scottish service until the new TPE electric fleet arrived at the end of the decade...
Whatever DfT may like to think sitting miles away in London, TPE is a very long way from being a classic InterCity-type operation, a situation that is not going to change given regional travel patterns across the North of England.
Pendolinos regularly hang off the platform at Haymarket so we could have 9 coach sets for TPE with doors locked out of use at certain platforms.
Incidentally, and very selfishly, I use TPE's Scottish services regularly which go nowhere near the Pennines therefore I think they should change the name of the company; but to what? Northern Express?
I checked that statement, thinking it was new, but it just repeats what is in the CP5 plan (Yorkshire programme).
However, all the dates were TBC even in the March update, before the "pauses", so timing is anybody's guess now.
I wouldn't regard anything regarding the TP route as settled.
“This is nothing more than smoke and mirrors from a Government that has broken its promises to the north time and time again.
"For all their talk of a ‘Northern Powerhouse’, under the Conservatives fares in the north have been hiked by up to 162 per cent, modern trains have been transferred to the south and pre-election pledges to electrify key lines have been cynically dropped.
"Instead of recycling old press releases, the Government should honour its commitments and get on with delivering electrification of the north TransPennine route and the Midland Main Line."
If Alstom have agreed to build only four new trains, I would expect the updated design to be quite similar to the existing one. My understanding is that the biggest change in the new standards is to do with the crashworthiness of the driving cab, which is something which could plausibly be changed without affecting the design of the rest of the train.
From what I can see, the Manchester-Scotland operation is quite separate from the TransPennine North and South services.
it really doesn't seem like an insurmountable problem to have the TransPennine bidder run this service with new Pendolinos.
If the minimum standard of Northern franchise rolling stock is going to considerably increase, I can see there being some merit in having other classifications of services. Liverpool-Newcastle/Edinburgh and Manchester-Scotland both clearly count as 'InterCity' given that they are long and can run at the same speeds as London expresses, but the line between the remaining services and some of the ones Northern is expected to provide aren't as clear. What difference is there between a Northern 'regional express' service and a Class 185-run TransPennine one, given the similarity in speeds, loadings and journey lengths between the two. If Northern has another classification below it - say 'Northern Local' - which would run the stopping services on most routes, I think you would have a better way of describing what qualities of service there are available between different places in the North.
People often seem to overestimate the difference between this service - he was referring to the Liverpool-Newcastles - my italics - and the other four on North TPE. As far as the Manchester to Leeds core is concerned, passengers will board the first train they can unless on an advance-
I have always thought it a bit silly that TP ended up with the Scotland services rather than Virgin, especially as the slower TP trains end up on long two track sections north of Wigan - doesn't this eat up capacity?
Could bi-modes be maintained at Newton Aycliffe?
The Pendolinos now being delivered on the continent are a whole new design from the rails up, compared with what has gone before, so any UK-gauge variant is going to differ in many respects from Virgin's fleet, not just a bit of a tweak of the bodyshell.
How you get from:
to concluding that
beats me. To my mind it seems utterly illogical not to hand it to the West Coast operator given that disconnection of the Scottish services from the core purpose of the TPE franchise.
You can call anything you like an intercity service - witness XC, where a great deal of the traffic is in reality short-distance/commuting - and the way the TPE trains are used between Leeds, Huddersfield and Manchester in particular looks nothing like an intercity-type operation. As 61653 HTAFC pointed out in back in post 39, on page 3,
Passengers couldn't give a monkey's if it's an 'intercity' or not and trying to differentiate one bit of the core TPE service from the rest by branding/using end-door stock seems a pointless distraction from the need to maximise carrying capacity and ensure punctual, reliable operating - which end-door stock would do nothing to achieve.
How long are the platforms at Manchester Airport? Can they take an 8 or 9 car Pendolino?
Also, would a switch to Pendolino and incorporation into the Virgin franchise offer any more journey options/operational flexibility for the WCML? For instance, could you have Glasgow to London services via Manchester, giving Bolton a direct London link? Could you have Glasgow to Birmingham services via Manchester, providing extra capacity on a usually heavily overcrowded XC route?
Also, how many 3 car 185's are used to provide the Liverpool - Newcastle services? I am just trying to work out how many would be released to strengthen other services if that service moved to something else, whatever that might be.
Also, how many 3 car 185's are used to provide the Liverpool - Newcastle services? I am just trying to work out how many would be released to strengthen other services if that service moved to something else, whatever that might be.
Could bi-modes be maintained at Newton Aycliffe?
As for stock, there will be an influx of 25k EMU's when new stock is delivered south.
It's all well and good people talking about using end door stock on the TPE NorthWest route - yes, it's effectively an express service North of Preston, but South of Preston it's more of a commuter/subregional service - I'd agree that the 185/350's aren't really ideal for the northern bit, but they are perfect South of Preston. Just need them to be longer !
The issue with running services via Manchester is that all the Northern Hub platforms are only ~210m long, and since they're on tight loops any SDO would block the adjacent platform. An 8 car Pendolino would fit fine but a 9 car would probably foul one or both of the junctions, and an 11 car would be completely out of the question. Unless you want 8 car Pendolinos reducing capacity on the WCML south of Manchester, they'll basically have no option but to terminate at Manchester Airport.
To my mind it seems utterly illogical not to hand it to the West Coast operator given that disconnection of the Scottish services from the core purpose of the TPE franchise.