Queuing for buses at the same stop

[GodAtum]

I was thinking if is there a good way to queue for multiple buses at the same stop. For example, at East Croydon Stop E2 there are 2 buses that follow a very similar route (the 64 and T33) but split for a short while and come back on the same route. I would guess that 60% of people can take either bus, 20% can only take the 64 and 10% can only take the T33. Often the queue is the length of the bus stop, around 10-15m.

I would argue that there should be 3 queues, one for each of those groups. As it is unfair that those who can only take the T33 might be at the back of queue so have no chance to get on if the T33 arrives first. Sometimes the 64 arrives first and a lot of people get on that so the queue disappers.

With my system, when a bus arrives, those who can only take that bus get priority.

I hope I make sense?

 

[IanD]

Those who can only take that bus get priority.

Those that can only take that bus should get to the stop in plenty of time and thus be at teh front of the queue.

Not that it (or your scheme) would make a difference as my experience is that queuing for buses in London is no longer the civilised affair it used to be.

 

[Greenback]

I don't queue up in London. I lurk around the stop and when the bus I want comes in I move towards it, allowing anyone who was waiting at the stop itself to board before me. I also allow those with bags and children to get on before I do, as well as elderly passengers and those with obvious disabilities.

It's exactly the same as I do in South Wales.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Queueing doesn't work for buses with all-door boarding (the Red Arrows and Boris buses) anyway. The German-style mob (with civilised people hanging back if they know others are ahead of them) seems to be the modern approach.

 

[neilmc]

On Wilmslow Road in Manchester the problem is different - there can be a dozen or so routes served by the same stop and buses arriving every few seconds. If there's one specific service you need you sometimes you have to move down the road in the direction of the bus and wave frantically to stop it overtaking others at the stop.

 

[Greenback]

Dredging through my memories, I recall living in a village that had only one bus route, and even then, over twenty years ago, no one queued in the traditional manner. In the unlikely event that there wer emore than three or four people at the stop, which normally only happened on the two 'get me into town before 0900' buses, it was always the norm to allow either those who were there first or the elderly/frail on to the bus first.

I suppose that must be where I learned my habits from. It seemed to work, although after that I moved into a suburban area of a different town where my local stop had two routes serving it, and the locals there were much more inclined to queue in a line!

 

[Bletchleyite]

On Wilmslow Road in Manchester the problem is different - there can be a dozen or so routes served by the same stop and buses arriving every few seconds. If there's one specific service you need you sometimes you have to move down the road in the direction of the bus and wave frantically to stop it overtaking others at the stop.

I used a bus on Oxford Road quite recently, and was highly disappointed that that nonsense was still going on. Buses should never overtake other buses at a stop, unless they are absolutely certain that the bus stopped at the stop is (a) the same route, (b) the same destination (having proper rear destination displays helps here), and (c) is not full. They should instead pull in and wait behind the stopped bus until people have had ample opportunity to walk along and board.

That said, a better solution for Oxford Road would be to reduce the number of routes and variants thus making this less of a problem.

 

[gordonthemoron]

That said, a better solution for Oxford Road would be to reduce the number of routes and variants thus making this less of a problem.

or extend the tram down there

 

[Bletchleyite]

or extend the tram down there

Or that. The tram could run to East Didsbury, with interchange for bus services (and the other tram route and trains) there. You could perhaps retain a single bus route (43) to serve West Didsbury if the tram down there was not justified.

Would of course require proper integrated ticketing.

 

[Clip]

East Croydon is in London.

All Londoners have no concept of what a queue is at a bus stop so just mooch on the pavement wherever they like getting in the way.

 

[Greenback]

That sounds like me and I'm not a Londoner!

 

[Clip]

That sounds like me and I'm not a Londoner!

come and join them!!

 

[Busaholic]

East Croydon is in London.

All Londoners have no concept of what a queue is at a bus stop so just mooch on the pavement wherever they like getting in the way.

I may not have lived there for 27 years, but I am a Londoner. The orderly queue was a feature of my childhood and early adult life. To an extent, bus conductors policed the stops to ensure fairness, but it was rarely needed. The advent of opo buses presaged the change, gradual at first, but by about the mid 1980s the revolution had happened. Brixton Station in the p.m. peak for an old g*t like me wanting a specific bus, for which I may have waited quite a while, can be a nightmare!

 

[Antman]

I was thinking if is there a good way to queue for multiple buses at the same stop. For example, at East Croydon Stop E2 there are 2 buses that follow a very similar route (the 64 and T33) but split for a short while and come back on the same route. I would guess that 60% of people can take either bus, 20% can only take the 64 and 10% can only take the T33. Often the queue is the length of the bus stop, around 10-15m.

I would argue that there should be 3 queues, one for each of those groups. As it is unfair that those who can only take the T33 might be at the back of queue so have no chance to get on if the T33 arrives first. Sometimes the 64 arrives first and a lot of people get on that so the queue disappers.

With my system, when a bus arrives, those who can only take that bus get priority.

I hope I make sense?

I can see the logic in what you're saying but in the confines of East Croydon there just wouldn't be room apart from anything else.

Many years ago the 54 and 119 had a separate stop in the evening peak at East Croydon and the 366 and 367 routes, the former has since been withdrawn and the latter rerouted, were first set down Shirley Inn to prevent these minibus routes getting swamped with short distance passengers.

 

[Busaholic]

I can see the logic in what you're saying but in the confines of East Croydon there just wouldn't be room apart from anything else.

Many years ago the 54 and 119 had a separate stop in the evening peak at East Croydon and the 366 and 367 routes, the former has since been withdrawn and the latter rerouted, were first set down Shirley Inn to prevent these minibus routes getting swamped with short distance passengers.

Being so long in the tooth that I can recall double deck London trams, I also recollect a minimum fare restriction from East Croydon in the days of graduated fares. It operated on the 194A in the evening peak and meant that you COULD use the route for a short hop, but you'd have to pay at least double the normal fare. As I lived in Rectory Road, Beckenham, one stop from its outer terminus and with only a half hourly through service, the minimum fare meant I was able to get on the bus on the few occasions when I needed to!

 

[GodAtum]

Being so long in the tooth that I can recall double deck London trams, I also recollect a minimum fare restriction from East Croydon in the days of graduated fares. It operated on the 194A in the evening peak and meant that you COULD use the route for a short hop, but you'd have to pay at least double the normal fare. As I lived in Rectory Road, Beckenham, one stop from its outer terminus and with only a half hourly through service, the minimum fare meant I was able to get on the bus on the few occasions when I needed to!

That's a good idea. I travel near the end of the route and I am often the only person on the bus by that time.

 

[TRN481V]

I used a bus on Oxford Road quite recently, and was highly disappointed that that nonsense was still going on. Buses should never overtake other buses at a stop, unless they are absolutely certain that the bus stopped at the stop is (a) the same route, (b) the same destination (having proper rear destination displays helps here), and (c) is not full. They should instead pull in and wait behind the stopped bus until people have had ample opportunity to walk along and board.

Sounds great in principle, and excellent for passengers, however have you contemplated the impact that this would have on the reliability of a service? Expecting a driver to pull in at *every* stop at which there is already another bus would result, very quickly, in late running. Any route has 'dwell time' for each stop built in to the running time allowed but to stop at every stop, just in case, along a busy route would have a detrimental effect on the route.

The onus is just as much on intending passengers to keep an eye out for their approaching bus, and to signal their intention clearly in plenty of time. I frequently stop at bus stops where there is already a bus on another service to let passengers alight, and the occasional observant passenger who has noticed my approach board. Then, when the bus in front moves there will inevitably be people at the shelter who have not had the wit or gumption to take a step back to see if their bus (ie the one I am driving) is on the horizon. Thus they then amble towards my bus, with no sense of urgency, losing me valuable running time. If I am already running late, and I am approaching a busy stop with a bus already at it, I will slow down as much as the prevailing traffic will allow and perhaps sound my horn to attract attention. If there is no movement from anybody at the stop I will pass it without stopping. I have a responsibility to those already on the bus, as well as intending passengers. Those on the bus want to get where they are going as quickly as possible and don't, I would imagine, really want to keep stopping when there is no need.

The responsibility for running a service effectively does not lie solely with the driver (though admittedly we play the major part in that), it also lies partly with the passengers - they need to play their part in the game too.

 

[GodAtum]

I suppose with one or two buses that is OK. But if there is 5 or 6 in a row then it gets hard to see. There is also a risk of loosing your place. If I move 5 buses down to wave at my bus that is coming, the other buses would move off and my bus would go right past me.

 

[Antman]

I suppose with one or two buses that is OK. But if there is 5 or 6 in a row then it gets hard to see. There is also a risk of loosing your place. If I move 5 buses down to wave at my bus that is coming, the other buses would move off and my bus would go right past me.

These problems often are the result of too many routes trying to serve one stop, the stops on the south side of Waterloo Bridge being a prime example.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Being so long in the tooth that I can recall double deck London trams, I also recollect a minimum fare restriction from East Croydon in the days of graduated fares. It operated on the 194A in the evening peak and meant that you COULD use the route for a short hop, but you'd have to pay at least double the normal fare. As I lived in Rectory Road, Beckenham, one stop from its outer terminus and with only a half hourly through service, the minimum fare meant I was able to get on the bus on the few occasions when I needed to!

I'm not quite that long in the tooth but I do vaguely remember the 194A which was replaced by an extension of the 166 if memory serves correctly.

On the subject of the T33 (soon to be renumbered 433) it's ridiculous that it has to make do with single deckers all because of residents objecting to double deckers.

 

[TRN481V]

I suppose with one or two buses that is OK. But if there is 5 or 6 in a row then it gets hard to see. There is also a risk of loosing your place. If I move 5 buses down to wave at my bus that is coming, the other buses would move off and my bus would go right past me.

Yes, that's certainly true. To be honest I rarely, if ever, encounter stops that are as busy as that.

 

[GodAtum]

On the subject of the T33 (soon to be renumbered 433) it's ridiculous that it has to make do with single deckers all because of residents objecting to double deckers.

I dont object but I think it would be impossible for a double decker to go through the estate at Selsdon with it's winding and narrow roads.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I dont object but I think it would be impossible for a double decker to go through the estate at Selsdon with it's winding and narrow roads.

Unless the single decker is quite small, or the double decker is a Boris behemoth, double deckers are typically shorter than single deckers, so unless there is a headroom problem it will be easier to get a double decker round.

 

[Antman]

I dont object but I think it would be impossible for a double decker to go through the estate at Selsdon with it's winding and narrow roads.

Double deckers have been round there before without a problem, it's only residents objections that restricts it to single deckers

 

[hassaanhc]

I dont object but I think it would be impossible for a double decker to go through the estate at Selsdon with it's winding and narrow roads.

You should see the 81 in Colnbrook village; at one point the upper deck is just inches from a building

 

[fusionblue]

Queueing happens regularly at the bus stops just outside Waterloo and even in Canary Wharf tube. The latter is quite entertaining because i have to ask myself "how did they get trained to do THAT?" every time i see it.

 

[hassaanhc]

Unless the single decker is quite small, or the double decker is a Boris behemoth, double deckers are typically shorter than single deckers, so unless there is a headroom problem it will be easier to get a double decker round.

The T33 actually uses the longer 10.9m version of the E200 rather than the shorter 10.2m one. The two main double deck types currently in London, the E400-MMC and Gemini 3, are about 10.3m-10.6m long. And that is before you look at the length of the actual wheelbase (the distance between the axles) and the turning circle of different models.
When operated by London United, the 49 was able to use the 10.6m "SP" Scania OmniCity's but not the 10.5m "TLA" Long ALX400 Tridents, as the SP's have a shorter wheelbase.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Queueing happens regularly at the bus stops just outside Waterloo and even in Canary Wharf tube. The latter is quite entertaining because i have to ask myself "how did they get trained to do THAT?" every time i see it.

I have also seen it at Canning Town or Stratford for rail replacement services.

As for Canary Wharf, it helps to be able to know exactly where the doors will be

 

[mirodo]

I was thinking if is there a good way to queue for multiple buses at the same stop. For example, at East Croydon Stop E2 there are 2 buses that follow a very similar route (the 64 and T33) but split for a short while and come back on the same route. I would guess that 60% of people can take either bus, 20% can only take the 64 and 10% can only take the T33. Often the queue is the length of the bus stop, around 10-15m.

I would argue that there should be 3 queues, one for each of those groups. As it is unfair that those who can only take the T33 might be at the back of queue so have no chance to get on if the T33 arrives first. Sometimes the 64 arrives first and a lot of people get on that so the queue disappers.

With my system, when a bus arrives, those who can only take that bus get priority.

I hope I make sense?

Much easier to catch the bus from the stop round the corner on Dingwall Road - fewer people queuing and pretty much guaranteed to get a seat before the masses get on at E2!

 

[GodAtum]

Much easier to catch the bus from the stop round the corner on Dingwall Road - fewer people queuing and pretty much guaranteed to get a seat before the masses get on at E2!

I'll give that i try, I forgot about that!

 

[Antman]

I'll give that i try, I forgot about that!

A lot of people do get the same idea though!

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I remember years ago bus stops that were shared by more than one route having "queue this side for x/y/z" on one side and "queue this side for a/b/c" on the other... thereby splitting the queue into 2... of course that was in the days where you wasn't guarunteed to get on the first bus to come along!