Passengers detrain themselves in Bristol area (26/09)

[Bletchleyite]

I'm not sure 150s have a passcom override, do they?

 

[HowardGWR]

I was the OP. Now having boned upon what was the cause (thanks to those who provided links), it is clear to me that public transport, as franchised to FGW /GWR, is incapable of providing mass transit to events such as the Eastville one. This ties up with the situation with the rugby problems on the other thread.

In the case of the long distance trains, I agree with another poster that those late night trains should have been advertised as special ticket only and advertised as such well in advance and limited to slightly less than capacity. That way, non sport pax who turned up on-spec could have been accommodated too.

One could not have done that at Clifton. I doubt if many pax had paid prior to departure (how?) and would not have paid, nor the waiting ones at Redland and Montpelier. It would have been clearly physically impossible for them to have paid. The only way would have been to have had a team of inspectors at Stapleton Road collecting a zone type fare. However the numbers could, equally clearly, not have been catered for anyway.

So, in the latter case, what to do? The only way would have been to make all three stations non-callable, displayed in advance. Tough on an 'ordinary' passenger who wanted to travel from, say, Redland to TM, or Lawrence Hill, but there are buses. I just wonder if GWR is sufficiently clued up to have known about the event and the likely consequences.

The new Arena at Bristol TM will test these issues to the fore when it is opened.
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@MarkyT

See my last sentence above; this problem is not going away.

 

[GodAtum]

I will reserve judgement until the answer to this question. Was any info provided to passengers at the time?

 

[Alan White]

When buying your ticket - customer. When actually travelling - passenger.

Nope. When I'm using the services or products provided by a company I am always a customer.

The railway industry might be able to divest itself of its Victorian service ethos if it recognised that the customer pays the bills and is to be satisfied not despised or ignored (SWT: I'm looking at you).

 

[PHILIPE]

Nope. When I'm using the services or products provided by a company I am always a customer.

The railway industry might be able to divest itself of its Victorian service ethos if it recognised that the customer pays the bills and is to be satisfied not despised or ignored (SWT: I'm looking at you).

Technically correct, but what is behind my opinions is that normal language (calling people travelling passengers) has gone out of the window just for the sake of PR.

We had thread on this back in 2011, the closed link being:-

www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=51949

A vote was taken on which members preferred:-
Customer = 9.52% Passenger = 90.48%

Discussing this point further is going off topic..

 

[ComUtoR]

GWR refer to the incident in the usual jargon language as "An Uncontrolled Evacuation".

Do you believe that is a good thing or a bad thing ?

 

[ScotGG]

Funny thing is that this line has seen massive growth but provision for it is lagging way behind. This will probably do more to bring it to the attention of politicians than other things.

 

[jimm]

I was the OP. Now having boned upon what was the cause (thanks to those who provided links), it is clear to me that public transport, as franchised to FGW /GWR, is incapable of providing mass transit to events such as the Eastville one. This ties up with the situation with the rugby problems on the other thread.

In the case of the long distance trains, I agree with another poster that those late night trains should have been advertised as special ticket only and advertised as such well in advance and limited to slightly less than capacity. That way, non sport pax who turned up on-spec could have been accommodated too.

One could not have done that at Clifton. I doubt if many pax had paid prior to departure (how?) and would not have paid, nor the waiting ones at Redland and Montpelier. It would have been clearly physically impossible for them to have paid. The only way would have been to have had a team of inspectors at Stapleton Road collecting a zone type fare. However the numbers could, equally clearly, not have been catered for anyway.

So, in the latter case, what to do? The only way would have been to make all three stations non-callable, displayed in advance. Tough on an 'ordinary' passenger who wanted to travel from, say, Redland to TM, or Lawrence Hill, but there are buses. I just wonder if GWR is sufficiently clued up to have known about the event and the likely consequences.

The new Arena at Bristol TM will test these issues to the fore when it is opened.
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Ah yes, let's have another go at GWR.

Of course it was better on the roads, wasn't it? Were the police sufficiently clued up on this event and the likely consequences?

Not on the face of what was on the Bristol Post website on Saturday afternoon:

Traffic is slow on the M32 as thousands of people have gathered in Eastville this weekend.

The police are warning drivers to avoid the M32 Southbound, with 20,000 people expected at Eastville Park for Tokyo World.

A statement from Avon and Somerset Police read: "Very slow traffic on M32 Southbound between J1 A4174 (Hambrook) and J3 A4320 / B4051 / A4032 Newfoundland Street (St Paul's).

"Possibly due to a nearby event in Eastville."

http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/Bristo...-slow-20-000/story-27873085-detail/story.html

So that's the main motorway link into central Bristol knocked out by this event. At what point is someone actually going to turn round to the organisers of events like this and the rugby and knock some sense into them about their arrangements/timings/big picture view of their impact? Despite what some people on here seem to believe, transport operators should not and cannot be expected to drop everything to accommodate event organisers' every whim.

The organisers in Bristol had apparently arranged with FirstBus to operate extras from the city centre and Temple Meads - but not the university areas, whose residents were presumably among their main target markets. Why not? It would probably have avoided what happened at Clifton Down.

In the case of the long distance trains, I agree with another poster that those late night trains should have been advertised as special ticket only and advertised as such well in advance and limited to slightly less than capacity. That way, non sport pax who turned up on-spec could have been accommodated too.

But that assumes that everyone will be frightfully well behaved and heed the reservation-only requirement. What about those who have only registered the bit about there being some trains running. What makes you think there wouldn't be 'sport pax' who turned up 'on spec' - frankly I'd expect there to be rather a lot of them. So how do you propose to accommodate them? And manage/police them on the station if told they won't be going anywhere that night?

 

[455driver]

Funny thing is that this line has seen massive growth but provision for it is lagging way behind. This will probably do more to bring it to the attention of politicians than other things.

A bit optimistic aren't we?

GWR West is desperately short of units across the network and nothing is going to happen until the 165/166s get cascaded when CrossRail opens.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

When it departed the station was it known at that point about the next station not being called at?

 

[PHILIPE]

When it departed the station was it known at that point about the next station not being called at?

No. See Post#18

 

[SephenWorceste]

I have only been stuck on a train once and that was FGW. I will keep my fingers crossed in future. It was on a HST at Norton Junction in Worcestershire. There were only a few of us on the train which probably helped. The train manager came round and asked us all where we were going and helped with revising our itineraries. He offered to ring his controller where people would be now be off their booked trains. Water and apologies were handed out. Eventually we went very slowly back to Worcester Shrub Hill. The following train had been held and we were guided quickly aboard and off we went back past Norton Junction. I was quite relaxed as I had no particularly time pressure that day and it was not an unpleasant (air conditioning and lighting remained on) experience. I did think FGW did rather well and I am not a particular fan. I thanked the train manager as I left the broken down HST.

 

[dosxuk]

This is a terrible analogy, a plane would not be as overcrowded as this train was and you'd be able to hear announcements from the customer hosts, who would themselves be told what is being done about the situation.

Or so you'd think. There's many examples of passengers being stuck on planes with no information, and a fair number of them also being without air conditioning, food or drink for hours.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-15327839

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/1...-passengers-in-11-hour-delay-call-police.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/avi...stranded-in-Manchester-so-pilot-can-rest.html

 

[Tim R-T-C]

I think communication is the most important thing - on a plane there is only a single cabin (or a couple of large ones depending on the size) and there are several staff on hand who can tell passengers what is going on.

I was on a train that got stuck outside Leeds for an hour after hitting downed OHL late one night. The train was busy but not crowded, there were no problems because it was a very open old-style 142 and the guard could just stand and tell the whole coach exactly what was happening. Not to mention that people could clearly see the crew getting off the train to check on the condition.

Unfortunately with many train incidents, particularly this one, they take place on busy trains where it is impossible for a guard (if there even is one) to get through and let passengers know what is going on. Announcements are all well and good but cannot always be heard.

There is of course a big difference between trains and planes - people know there is no way off a plane, even if you could jump off you would be stuck in the no-man's land of airside at an airport and risking arrest or even being shot. With a train, I think people expect to just walk to a nearby station or road and travel on by bus or taxi - which ultimately is usually what happens. I don't know of any arrests in these cases - although really they wouldn't do any good for train company PR and with trespass not carrying any major penalties, seems hardly worth the time.

Of course the first time a group get mown down by a passing fast train then things will change and the train companies will get blamed for not making it harder to get off a stranded train.

 

[CC 72100]

Of course the first time a group get mown down by a passing fast train then things will change and the train companies will get blamed for not making it harder to get off a stranded train.

In this incident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-UC_1jNCjA the driver actually asked customers to leave the train but released the doors on the wrong side.

Different circumstances, but goes to show what can happen when you have an evacuation off a stranded train while trains are still running - most likely to happen, of course, during an unauthorised evacuation.

 

[Taunton]

This incident reminds me of the Kentish Town fiasco of a few years ago - packed train with everyone squashed in, some issue arises which takes for ever to sort out because there's nobody senior on duty in evening (Kentish Town) or weekend (here) to make decisions, what supervision there is only concerned with the rail operations side of things, no concern for the passengers packed into an overcrowded train stopped way beyond their journey time expectation - and then everyone comes on here and says it's all the passengers' fault. Gross over-exaggeration about passengers liability to be mown down on the adjacent track, notwithstanding that it happened from a stopped train on a single line, and any mowing down of those who have tipped themselves out of a stopped grossly overcrowded train has, as far as I am aware, never ever happened.

 

[reb0118]

I'm not sure 150s have a passcom override, do they?

They didn't when I signed them - the breaks just come on.

 

[D1009]

We're 77 posts into this and unless I've missed something there is still nothing relating to why the train was brought to a stand and why the "passengers" took this action.

 

[HowardGWR]

Ah yes, let's have another go at GWR.

I'm sorry but you keep flaming in response to others' posts. You really must learn to read carefully and stop reacting this way. In no part of my post did I have a go at FGW GWR. On the contrary I have great respect for its management, having had the pleasure of meeting the top man on more than one occasion.

The point of my writing 'as franchised to GWR' was intended to explain that the franchisee can only work with what DFT allows it.

GWR could institute six car trains on that line if DFT or WEP would cough up. As I pondered, I will be interested to see what the policy will be with Bristol's new Arena next to TM. The Mayor has defended the policy to provide 'only' 250 spaces there, as he claims public transport will be well adequate to handle the crowds.

The issue of unofficial 'de-training' is the other issue, but I am more interested in the strategic issues that this incident and the Rugby specials have thrown up.

Should the railways cater for occasional and seasonal peaks? Clearly the roads can't.

 

[PHILIPE]

We're 77 posts into this and unless I've missed something there is still nothing relating to why the train was brought to a stand and why the "passengers" took this action.

I've got a feeling we may never know the real facts. It would have waited, after drawing forward from the platform, to cross the 14 34 ex Bristol TM coming off the Single Line and which was running late.

 

[455driver]

They didn't when I signed them - the breaks just come on.

So do the brakes!

 

[jimm]

I'm sorry but you keep flaming in response to others' posts. You really must learn to read carefully and stop reacting this way. In no part of my post did I have a go at FGW GWR. On the contrary I have great respect for its management, having had the pleasure of meeting the top man on more than one occasion.

The point of my writing 'as franchised to GWR' was intended to explain that the franchisee can only work with what DFT allows it.

GWR could institute six car trains on that line if DFT or WEP would cough up. As I pondered, I will be interested to see what the policy will be with Bristol's new Arena next to TM. The Mayor has defended the policy to provide 'only' 250 spaces there, as he claims public transport will be well adequate to handle the crowds.

The issue of unofficial 'de-training' is the other issue, but I am more interested in the strategic issues that this incident and the Rugby specials have thrown up.

Should the railways cater for occasional and seasonal peaks? Clearly the roads can't.

So if it's not having a pop at GWR, then why was it necessary write in 'as franchised to GWR' in bold letters? Why not just write

it is clear to me that public transport is incapable of providing mass transit to events such as the Eastville one.

which would convey your point perfectly well, as I can't imagine the special buses were exactly racing through the traffic jams either. The strategic issues around these sorts of events go well beyond Bristol, the GW area generally - and the railways.

Not that you would know it from media coverage or some posts in this forum, where it's all 'GWR this that and the other', even if roads are clogged due to the self-same events and several other TOCs took just the same line on late-night rugby trains from London on Saturday as GWR did - before its fumblings on the day - but I have not seen anyone slag them off.

The railways are not some 'cure-all, handle everything that is thrown at them' set-up, especially with the phenomenal growth in ordinary, everyday demands that they face now, even if Bristol's Mr Mayor seems to be yet another person who thinks that they are.

 

[Alan White]

A vote was taken on which members preferred:-
Customer = 9.52% Passenger = 90.48%

Discussing this point further is going off topic..

I suggest it's unsurprising in a forum with a high proportion of railway workers that "passenger" was preferred in a survey.

As to being off-topic, I don't believe it is. The title of this thread is "Passengers detrain..." and a significant number of the comments express derogatory comments about the "passengers", as though it's somehow their fault that the train was crowded and had its schedule changed thus denying them the journey they'd paid for. Funny how railway rules only work in favour of the railway: if the customers don't pay for their journey they're prosecuted; if the railway doesn't provide the journey the customer has paid for, tough. If the industry called its users "customers" then they might be treated with more respect.

Passengers: organic freight, stupid, cattle, to be kept in the dark, crammed in, few seats, poor service, ignored, dumped at stations when the TOC can't be bothered to run a service.

Customers: recognised as the reason for the service, appreciated as the bill payer, receives good service, treated with respect.

 

[Taunton]

The media has now spoken with the passengers from the train, who describe the reason for their action as principally being stuck in intolerably crowded conditions, feeling claustrophobic and crushed, doubtless overheated, and then just left stuck standing and stationary for an extended period, with no airflow through the ventilators (probably apart from the Class 150 exhaust fumes drifting in through the toplights) and no audible information, as the reason for their evacuation. They don't mention the announcement about not stopping, and it seems the announcements were inaudible anyway.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-34389884

Certainly the second of the interior views shows a most unpleasant crush inside. It's Kentish Town all over again, isn't it.

Sorcha Bradley, who was on board, said people got off because they felt it was "the only option".

"I felt really claustrophobic, I was very scared, I was on the verge of tears," she said.

If the best that the GWR spokesman can do is a "high and mighty" lecture about 'trespass on the railway is a £1,000 fine' then they have absolutely abrogated their duty of care to the passengers stuck in these conditions. I hope the RAIB get involved like they did at Kentish Town (which was a First Group operation at the time as well) and put a rocket up GWR for their handling of this incident. BTP may like to reconsider their press statement as well.

 

[kevin5025]

The media has now spoken with the passengers from the train, who describe the reason for their action as principally being stuck in intolerably crowded conditions, feeling claustrophobic and crushed, doubtless overheated, and then just left stuck standing and stationary for an extended period, with no airflow through the ventilators (probably apart from the Class 150 exhaust fumes drifting in through the toplights) and no audible information, as the reason for their evacuation. They don't mention the announcement about not stopping, and it seems the announcements were inaudible anyway.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-34389884

Certainly the second of the interior views shows a most unpleasant crush inside. It's Kentish Town all over again, isn't it.



If the best that the GWR spokesman can do is a "high and mighty" lecture about 'trespass on the railway is a £1,000 fine' then they have absolutely abrogated their duty of care to the passengers stuck in these conditions. I hope the RAIB get involved like they did at Kentish Town (which was a First Group operation at the time as well) and put a rocket up GWR for their handling of this incident. BTP may like to reconsider their press statement as well.

I agree. I think another factor could be that people don't have faith in the railways (or other institutions) to be able to handle a situation. My mind thinks back to 2009 when Eurostar trains were stuck in the channel tunnel due to cold weather / snow affecting the electrics. There was a genuine problem, but trains were left stranded even though there are rescue locos positioned at each end of the tunnel. Each incident like this gives the perception in my mind that the railways are not capable of handling an incident. So, if I had been in that train I would be wondering - leave the train, which is wrong, or sit waiting for the railway to try and figure out what to do. I think I would have got off, and got off the line as soon as I found a way off. Not ideal, but I'm just saying, my perception is that the railway isn't as resourced or skilled as it might have been in the past. Maybe that perception is wrong, but the passenger, customer, has to decide what to do, and if no one is coming to help, they might well decide to help themselves.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

The railways can handle the capacity as long as the rolling stock provision is suitable. You only have to look at the very commendable way scotrail handled the commonwealth games, but they had to pare back maintenance and alter unit and traincrew diagrams in order to run longer trains and later which required a lot of planning, overtime and rest day work in order to get the cover. This doesnt work forever tho and depends on the area, the routes and the trains available.

However as we far too often see there just isnt enough trains to cover the normal service without affecting performance. We are still trying to run too many short trains where we clearly need longer trains.

 

[Taunton]

I think another factor could be that people don't have faith in the railways (or other institutions) to be able to handle a situation.

I think you are correct. The railway's ability to handle sudden situations has been significantly lost, and we now just read of event after event where passengers are left to themselves for hours.

You have to wonder why the train was allowed to depart Clifton Down platform to wait and wait on the open line ahead for an occupied single line section when the gross overcrowding and delays had apparently been going on all day. Where was any relevant management? In Aberdeen? Somebody only focused on their punctuality targets?

they had to pare back maintenance and alter unit and traincrew diagrams in order to run longer trains and later which required a lot of planning, overtime and rest day work in order to get the cover.

Ah. Now I remember (because I was there) another Rock Concert. Blackbushe Airport 1978. Attendance something like 500,000. BR anticipated the numbers correctly, and ran a huge lift of passengers between Waterloo and Hook station, which even handled it finishing about 2 hours late and well into the night. They came up with trains, crews, station staff, everything. Whole strings of 12-EPB, many brought all the way round from Slade Green, were lined up at each Up Local signal from Basingstoke to move forward to do the return run. Well organised arrangements to sell and collect tickets for everyone. No ludicrous overcrowding. No need to get down on the line. It can be done. It's just nobody can be bothered nowadays.

Incidentally, I'm quietly amused that in the two BBC photographs of the students walking back to Clifton Down they are all entirely on the Down Line walking under the protection of their train just ahead, and none can be seen walking on the Up Line where a train might come along. Maybe they have more sense than some here are giving them credit for - I'm surprised nobody here has reprimanded them for not wearing Hi-viz.

 

[ian959]

I think you are correct. The railway's ability to handle sudden situations has been significantly lost, and we now just read of event after event where passengers are left to themselves for hours.

You have to wonder why the train was allowed to depart Clifton Down platform to wait and wait on the open line ahead for an occupied single line section when the gross overcrowding and delays had apparently been going on all day. Where was any relevant management? In Aberdeen? Somebody only focused on their punctuality targets?


Ah. Now I remember (because I was there) another Rock Concert. Blackbushe Airport 1978. Attendance something like 500,000. BR anticipated the numbers correctly, and ran a huge lift of passengers between Waterloo and Hook station, which even handled it finishing about 2 hours late and well into the night. They came up with trains, crews, station staff, everything. Whole strings of 12-EPB, many brought all the way round from Slade Green, were lined up at each Up Local signal from Basingstoke to move forward to do the return run. Well organised arrangements to sell and collect tickets for everyone. No ludicrous overcrowding. No need to get down on the line. It can be done. It's just nobody can be bothered nowadays.

1978 and BR are hardly relevant to the railway in 2015, where DfT basically mandate x number of carriages and no more. Nothing any operator can do when they are starting with insufficient carriages, even before losing them to the vagaries of failures and maintenance.

Even if DfT mandated x + 25%, that would probably be barely enough to relieve the overcrowding on normal services let alone running special trains for events.

 

[cjmillsnun]

What about a system which notifies the driver that the handle has been pulled and the driver can override it - if he doesn't override within 3 seconds, it unlocks the door?

It does sound like the system in use on more modern units like class 180s though. IIRC the driver can override a passcom and/or an emergency door release if it is unsafe to do so.
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Nope. When I'm using the services or products provided by a company I am always a customer.

The railway industry might be able to divest itself of its Victorian service ethos if it recognised that the customer pays the bills and is to be satisfied not despised or ignored (SWT: I'm looking at you).

Actually. BOTH are correct and I find SWT's service to be better than the other southern region operators (TGSN and SouthEastern). I'm not saying SWT are perfect by any means, however when they have information they do tend to pass it on whereas TGSN and SE prefer the mushroom syndrome.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It does sound like the system in use on more modern units like class 180s though. IIRC the driver can override a passcom and/or an emergency door release if it is unsafe to do so.

I *really* don't like that. The egress handle is a last-ditch emergency facility. If there is a need for networked data to be sent to it from around the train, it is not very failsafe. It should solely be a mechanical device, in my view.