Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm not sure 150s have a passcom override, do they?
Nope. When I'm using the services or products provided by a company I am always a customer.When buying your ticket - customer. When actually travelling - passenger.
Nope. When I'm using the services or products provided by a company I am always a customer.
The railway industry might be able to divest itself of its Victorian service ethos if it recognised that the customer pays the bills and is to be satisfied not despised or ignored (SWT: I'm looking at you).
GWR refer to the incident in the usual jargon language as "An Uncontrolled Evacuation".
I was the OP. Now having boned upon what was the cause (thanks to those who provided links), it is clear to me that public transport, as franchised to FGW /GWR, is incapable of providing mass transit to events such as the Eastville one. This ties up with the situation with the rugby problems on the other thread.
In the case of the long distance trains, I agree with another poster that those late night trains should have been advertised as special ticket only and advertised as such well in advance and limited to slightly less than capacity. That way, non sport pax who turned up on-spec could have been accommodated too.
One could not have done that at Clifton. I doubt if many pax had paid prior to departure (how?) and would not have paid, nor the waiting ones at Redland and Montpelier. It would have been clearly physically impossible for them to have paid. The only way would have been to have had a team of inspectors at Stapleton Road collecting a zone type fare. However the numbers could, equally clearly, not have been catered for anyway.
So, in the latter case, what to do? The only way would have been to make all three stations non-callable, displayed in advance. Tough on an 'ordinary' passenger who wanted to travel from, say, Redland to TM, or Lawrence Hill, but there are buses. I just wonder if GWR is sufficiently clued up to have known about the event and the likely consequences.
The new Arena at Bristol TM will test these issues to the fore when it is opened.
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Traffic is slow on the M32 as thousands of people have gathered in Eastville this weekend.
The police are warning drivers to avoid the M32 Southbound, with 20,000 people expected at Eastville Park for Tokyo World.
A statement from Avon and Somerset Police read: "Very slow traffic on M32 Southbound between J1 A4174 (Hambrook) and J3 A4320 / B4051 / A4032 Newfoundland Street (St Paul's).
"Possibly due to a nearby event in Eastville."
In the case of the long distance trains, I agree with another poster that those late night trains should have been advertised as special ticket only and advertised as such well in advance and limited to slightly less than capacity. That way, non sport pax who turned up on-spec could have been accommodated too.
Funny thing is that this line has seen massive growth but provision for it is lagging way behind. This will probably do more to bring it to the attention of politicians than other things.
When it departed the station was it known at that point about the next station not being called at?
This is a terrible analogy, a plane would not be as overcrowded as this train was and you'd be able to hear announcements from the customer hosts, who would themselves be told what is being done about the situation.
Of course the first time a group get mown down by a passing fast train then things will change and the train companies will get blamed for not making it harder to get off a stranded train.
I'm not sure 150s have a passcom override, do they?
Ah yes, let's have another go at GWR.
We're 77 posts into this and unless I've missed something there is still nothing relating to why the train was brought to a stand and why the "passengers" took this action.
They didn't when I signed them - the breaks just come on.
I'm sorry but you keep flaming in response to others' posts. You really must learn to read carefully and stop reacting this way. In no part of my post did I have a go at FGW GWR. On the contrary I have great respect for its management, having had the pleasure of meeting the top man on more than one occasion.
The point of my writing 'as franchised to GWR' was intended to explain that the franchisee can only work with what DFT allows it.
GWR could institute six car trains on that line if DFT or WEP would cough up. As I pondered, I will be interested to see what the policy will be with Bristol's new Arena next to TM. The Mayor has defended the policy to provide 'only' 250 spaces there, as he claims public transport will be well adequate to handle the crowds.
The issue of unofficial 'de-training' is the other issue, but I am more interested in the strategic issues that this incident and the Rugby specials have thrown up.
Should the railways cater for occasional and seasonal peaks? Clearly the roads can't.
it is clear to me that public transport is incapable of providing mass transit to events such as the Eastville one.
I suggest it's unsurprising in a forum with a high proportion of railway workers that "passenger" was preferred in a survey.A vote was taken on which members preferred:-
Customer = 9.52% Passenger = 90.48%
Discussing this point further is going off topic..
Sorcha Bradley, who was on board, said people got off because they felt it was "the only option".
"I felt really claustrophobic, I was very scared, I was on the verge of tears," she said.
The media has now spoken with the passengers from the train, who describe the reason for their action as principally being stuck in intolerably crowded conditions, feeling claustrophobic and crushed, doubtless overheated, and then just left stuck standing and stationary for an extended period, with no airflow through the ventilators (probably apart from the Class 150 exhaust fumes drifting in through the toplights) and no audible information, as the reason for their evacuation. They don't mention the announcement about not stopping, and it seems the announcements were inaudible anyway.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-34389884
Certainly the second of the interior views shows a most unpleasant crush inside. It's Kentish Town all over again, isn't it.
If the best that the GWR spokesman can do is a "high and mighty" lecture about 'trespass on the railway is a £1,000 fine' then they have absolutely abrogated their duty of care to the passengers stuck in these conditions. I hope the RAIB get involved like they did at Kentish Town (which was a First Group operation at the time as well) and put a rocket up GWR for their handling of this incident. BTP may like to reconsider their press statement as well.
I think you are correct. The railway's ability to handle sudden situations has been significantly lost, and we now just read of event after event where passengers are left to themselves for hours.I think another factor could be that people don't have faith in the railways (or other institutions) to be able to handle a situation.
Ah. Now I remember (because I was there) another Rock Concert. Blackbushe Airport 1978. Attendance something like 500,000. BR anticipated the numbers correctly, and ran a huge lift of passengers between Waterloo and Hook station, which even handled it finishing about 2 hours late and well into the night. They came up with trains, crews, station staff, everything. Whole strings of 12-EPB, many brought all the way round from Slade Green, were lined up at each Up Local signal from Basingstoke to move forward to do the return run. Well organised arrangements to sell and collect tickets for everyone. No ludicrous overcrowding. No need to get down on the line. It can be done. It's just nobody can be bothered nowadays.they had to pare back maintenance and alter unit and traincrew diagrams in order to run longer trains and later which required a lot of planning, overtime and rest day work in order to get the cover.
I think you are correct. The railway's ability to handle sudden situations has been significantly lost, and we now just read of event after event where passengers are left to themselves for hours.
You have to wonder why the train was allowed to depart Clifton Down platform to wait and wait on the open line ahead for an occupied single line section when the gross overcrowding and delays had apparently been going on all day. Where was any relevant management? In Aberdeen? Somebody only focused on their punctuality targets?
Ah. Now I remember (because I was there) another Rock Concert. Blackbushe Airport 1978. Attendance something like 500,000. BR anticipated the numbers correctly, and ran a huge lift of passengers between Waterloo and Hook station, which even handled it finishing about 2 hours late and well into the night. They came up with trains, crews, station staff, everything. Whole strings of 12-EPB, many brought all the way round from Slade Green, were lined up at each Up Local signal from Basingstoke to move forward to do the return run. Well organised arrangements to sell and collect tickets for everyone. No ludicrous overcrowding. No need to get down on the line. It can be done. It's just nobody can be bothered nowadays.
What about a system which notifies the driver that the handle has been pulled and the driver can override it - if he doesn't override within 3 seconds, it unlocks the door?
Nope. When I'm using the services or products provided by a company I am always a customer.
The railway industry might be able to divest itself of its Victorian service ethos if it recognised that the customer pays the bills and is to be satisfied not despised or ignored (SWT: I'm looking at you).
It does sound like the system in use on more modern units like class 180s though. IIRC the driver can override a passcom and/or an emergency door release if it is unsafe to do so.