Crossrail 2

[cjohnson]

New consultation and further details released by TfL/NR today

http://crossrail2.co.uk/

https://consultations.tfl.gov.uk/crossrail2/october2015/

Overview

Crossrail 2 is a proposed new railway serving London and the wider South East. It would connect the National Rail networks in Surrey and Hertfordshire via new tunnels and stations between Wimbledon, Tottenham Hale and New Southgate linking in with London Underground, London Overground, Crossrail 1, National Rail, High Speed 1, High Speed 2, London Trams and international rail services.


Crossrail 2 will bring huge benefits. It will ensure that London can grow and remain globally competitive, driving growth across the national economy. It will do this by providing new homes and jobs across the region, and by improving the quality of life. It will make it easier to travel around, and encourage people to make greener journeys.

Tooting Broadway option looks to have been dropped in favour of Balham, as a station at the former seems too difficult to construct.

Service pattern planned to be up to 30tph through the "core";
- southbound 4tph to Shepperton/Hampton Court/Epsom/Chessington with the balance terminating at Wimbledon
- northbound up to 12tph to Broxbourne; 15 tph to New Southgate (either via Wood Green or Ally Pally, route to be decided)
- possible northbound branch towards Hackney safeguarded

Lots more detail on the links above.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

That looks good news.

Still digesting the documents, but one thing strikes me... It looks like in these plans, CR2 will only remove 8 trains per hour from the SWT lines through Wimbledon (2 each to Shepperton/Hampton Court/Epsom/Chessington). Looks to me like that means very little scope for new paths for more fast trains from Waterloo. (You can obviously get 8 new paths per hour out of that, but only for trains running at inner-suburban stop-everywhere speeds). I wonder if that means Network Rail will have to think again about their aspiration to get more capacity for fast trains between Woking and Waterloo - which I think they were hoping would come from CR2.

 

[swt_passenger]

That looks good news.
Looks to me like that means very little scope for new paths for more fast trains from Waterloo. (You can obviously get 8 new paths per hour out of that, but only for trains running at inner-suburban stop-everywhere speeds). I wonder if that means Network Rail will have to think again about their aspiration to get more capacity for fast trains between Woking and Waterloo.

The Wessex route study explains that is basically the plan. Remove 8 trains from the main suburbans, then with the benefit of 6 tracking from New Malden, all the existing trains that switch from slow line to fast line around Surbiton will no longer need to do that. So that produces the number of additional mainline paths. What it effectively means is that there are trains running on the fast lines at the moment that shouldn't really be there at all:

The capacity released on the Slow Line and at London Waterloo
can then be used by the six to seven trains per hour which
currently join the Fast Line inwards of Surbiton. If these were to
remain as 10-car outer suburban services then no platform works
would be required but if they were to be 12-car services then
platform extension works may be required...

 

[cjohnson]

From one of the CR2 factsheets:

Crossrail 2 would connect to the National Rail network
south west of Wimbledon, requiring the addition of new
tracks on the South West Main Line to New Malden. This
extra capacity for Crossrail 2 and suburban services
would free space on the existing track, which could be
reallocated to longer-distance services on the South West
mainline. These improvements would lead to additional
peak services between London and locations further afield
such as Southampton, Basingstoke, Salisbury, Guildford
and Portsmouth.

 

[jopsuk]

Confirmation of intention to create a four-track railway from south of Tottenham Hale (tunnel portals basically) to north of Broxbourne - maybe the Hertford North junction? It'll be interesting to see what then becomes (and under what operation) of the Hertford North service and the Stratford-Stortford service. Half hourly for each to provide the 4tph STAR?

 

[swt_passenger]

Description of works at Wimbledon is puzzling.

There is a first mention of 4 x 250m underground platforms, 10m deep. This has been suggested in earlier discussions, and is presumably needed for the reversing of part of the service. There's an underpass to get the up Crossrail 2 line under the SWT lines, between Raynes Park and Wimbledon.

Yet there is still a 'portal' north of Wimbledon. Is that suggesting trains will come to the surface again for a few hundred yards? Seems a waste of time, or could they be in an open cutting?

There is also confirmation of the intention to remove the trams from the main station as well, I've always thought that had to happen.

 

[cle]

The southern branches seem to be a bit wasteful in terms of frequency. Wimbledon terminating seems like the Paddington thing all over again.

Could another branch from there work, perhaps down to Sutton?
Surely Shepparton could take more than 4tph? Twickenham seems to have been dropped but another spot to terminate to boost Kingston seems important.

Or continue to Weybridge? Those fancy places no doubt prefer their faster services though.


Other than the Tottenham route, the northern end seems odd and inelegant to me. Essex Road could have been a good interchange, given the Moorgate line is going up in frequency and 7 days. Hackney seems a must - the original plan to take over some Central line trains (finally getting to Harlow?) could work. No Stratford though please.

 

[telstarbox]

So the brand new stations are at King's Road Chelsea and Dalston (underground). Is 'Euston St Pancras' only happening onceHS2 is in place?

 

[Bald Rick]

Description of works at Wimbledon is puzzling.

There is a first mention of 4 x 250m underground platforms, 10m deep. This has been suggested in earlier discussions, and is presumably needed for the reversing of part of the service. There's an underpass to get the up Crossrail 2 line under the SWT lines, between Raynes Park and Wimbledon.

Yet there is still a 'portal' north of Wimbledon. Is that suggesting trains will come to the surface again for a few hundred yards? Seems a waste of time, or could they be in an open cutting?

There is also confirmation of the intention to remove the trams from the main station as well, I've always thought that had to happen.

Presumably 10m below road level, so not that much deeper than the existing station. One assumes a shallow cutting to the north, also presumably to provide access to the proposed train maintenance depot east of the SWML.

 

[swt_passenger]

Surely Shepparton could take more than 4tph? Twickenham seems to have been dropped but another spot to terminate to boost Kingston seems important.

They do suggest on the specific branch factsheet 4 x CR2 at Shepparton, but 6-8 x CR2 at Norbiton, Kingston, and Hampton Wick. Does that necessarily imply a new turn back between Hampton Wick and Teddington? Is there space anywhere?

 

[Stats]

The southern branches seem to be a bit wasteful in terms of frequency. Wimbledon terminating seems like the Paddington thing all over again.

Could another branch from there work, perhaps down to Sutton?
Surely Shepparton could take more than 4tph? Twickenham seems to have been dropped but another spot to terminate to boost Kingston seems important.

They'll be services terminating at Kingston as well as those continuing on to Shepperton.

 

[adrock1976]

Is this the revised plans of the Chelsea - Hackney link that was proposed many years ago?

On another point also, it would be appreciated if any future Crossrail projects in or around London have the prefix "London" before it eg London Crossrail, London Crossrail 2 etc. This is because there are other cities outside London that have (or had) plans and aspirations for a crossrail scheme, such as Bradford, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, and Glasgow to my knowledge.

 

[swt_passenger]

They'll be services terminating at Kingston as well as those continuing on to Shepperton.

Yes, but the puzzle is they also show the same higher frequency as far as Hampton Wick, the next stop along?

 

[muddythefish]

It is preposterous that the govt should be considering yet more investment in London infrastructure when the rest of the country (principally the north but also the south west and East Anglia) are starved of investment. London has benefited hugely from the public purse over the past 15 years or so. It's time to call a halt and money diverted to the regions.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The Wessex route study explains that is basically the plan. Remove 8 trains from the main suburbans, then with the benefit of 6 tracking from New Malden, all the existing trains that switch from slow line to fast line around Surbiton will no longer need to do that. So that produces the number of additional mainline paths. What it effectively means is that there are trains running on the fast lines at the moment that shouldn't really be there at all:

OK, ta for the explanation. I'm guessing it may also be 10 trains, not 8, removed from the existing suburbans - if the Waterloo-Kingston-Richmond-Waterloo trains are cut back to Kingston-Richmond-Waterloo (not actually said anywhere, but seems plausible given the docs state 8 CR2 tph to Kingston).

 

[jopsuk]

Description of works at Wimbledon is puzzling.

There is a first mention of 4 x 250m underground platforms, 10m deep. This has been suggested in earlier discussions, and is presumably needed for the reversing of part of the service. There's an underpass to get the up Crossrail 2 line under the SWT lines, between Raynes Park and Wimbledon.

Yet there is still a 'portal' north of Wimbledon. Is that suggesting trains will come to the surface again for a few hundred yards? Seems a waste of time, or could they be in an open cutting?

I think the portals north of Wimbledon will just be on the access lines to the depot. I've done my own rendition of what I think they're up to here:

 

[Bald Rick]

It is preposterous that the govt should be considering yet more investment in London infrastructure when the rest of the country (principally the north but also the south west and East Anglia) are starved of investment. London has benefited hugely from the public purse over the past 15 years or so. It's time to call a halt and money diverted to the regions.

Or do both #Northern Powerhouse.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

The plans for Wimbledon look interesting. Glad to see they are planning on new entrances along the length of the platforms, not just where the current entrances now. I'm guessing some buildings opposite the station will have to be knocked down to make way for the new tram stop.

New road bridge north of the station? I wonder if that means they are planning on removing traffic from Wimbledon Bridge (where the main entrance currently is). I hope so - it's extremely congested round there. Making it buses only, if other traffic was diverted to the new bridge - would go some way to making the area more pleasant - and speeding up public transport.

Anyone notice that they are planning a Tottenham Court Road station entrance along Shaftesbury Avenue. I like that they are spreading entrances around, but that seems an odd place to put it - it'll be a long way from the platforms.

 

[swt_passenger]

Presumably 10m below road level, so not that much deeper than the existing station. One assumes a shallow cutting to the north, also presumably to provide access to the proposed train maintenance depot east of the SWML.

They write "10m below ground level to the top of the tunnels", and also refer to station north and south shafts. Re-reading it I still think it means something very like a typical 'underground station' even if it is built in a massive box under the current Centre Court shopping centre.

Is the presumption that most of that block will be demolished and rebuilt?

 

[jopsuk]

To me a glaring omission- and I'd love to see a rational behind it- is the lack of station just south of the junction between the Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale branches. A station there would be directly underneath Stoke Newington station and would provide a useful interchange for passengers from the stations between Bethnal Green and Hackney Downs (plus Rectory Road) to Tottenham Hale and beyond, something that's not very well catered for at the moment (few West Anglia trains stop between Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street)

 

[Class 170101]

To me a glaring omission- and I'd love to see a rational behind it- is the lack of station just south of the junction between the Seven Sisters and Tottenham Hale branches. A station there would be directly underneath Stoke Newington station and would provide a useful interchange for passengers from the stations between Bethnal Green and Hackney Downs (plus Rectory Road) to Tottenham Hale and beyond, something that's not very well catered for at the moment (few West Anglia trains stop between Tottenham Hale and Liverpool Street)

Two direct journeys per hour between Tottenham Hale and Hackney Downs Monday to Saturday.

 

[MrPIC]

When is the estimated completion? 2025?

 

[Bald Rick]

2030, and that's pushing it. 9-10 years construction.

 

[HowardGWR]

2030, and that's pushing it. 9-10 years construction.

Andrew Adonis will be 67 then. What a remarkable career he will have had and still younger at that point than Hillary Clinton is now. Makes you think.

I'll be 85.

 

[jopsuk]

Two direct journeys per hour between Tottenham Hale and Hackney Downs Monday to Saturday.

I've most often used the line on Sundays... that's my excuse and 'm sticking to it!

I wonder what the implications now are for stock? I'd imagine that 317 and 455/456 replacement will be kept on hold until CR2 is ready to tender for replacement- at which point the franchise covering the rest of the West Anglia will have to assess it's future fleet requirements

 

[Class 170101]

Crossrail completion is nearer 2030 than 2025. I can't see a start date for construction until Crossrail 1 is finished - after all are there resources to do both even though Crossrail 1 will be almost finished by 2018/19?

The other tunnelling issue concerns HS2 which should be underway by then.

I would question why some trains need to terminate at Wimbledon - they should be pushed further south to give those branches a better than 15 minute service frequency.

Hertford East should also be included as should Welwyn Garden City. Terminating at Broxbourne and New Southgate doesn't seem right to me.

 

[jopsuk]

I really do suspect that my hunch about Hertford East and Stortford services becoming the 4tph Stratford-Angel Road (STAR) might be why Broxbourne becomes the terminus. Though if that is the case then that station at Stoke Newington really is needed!

Having said that all the maps show an arrow at Broxbourne. So maybe Hertford (and/or Harlow, Stortford?) is down as an unmentioned expansion. Maybe it's the Reading of this CR.

On the other branch, it's New Southgate purely because they've found a location for the depot. It's not entirely clear from the consultation documents, but I'm assuming that CR2 won't use the existing tracks at all here (likely have a link for engineering trains?) the ECML slows to Welwyn will be very busy with Thameslink and Moorgate services. May become a little tight on track capacity.

 

[Class 170101]

the ECML slows to Welwyn will be very busy with Thameslink and Moorgate services. May become a little tight on track capacity.

How about CR2 as a replacement for Welwyn to Moorgate services leaving Moorgate to concentrate on the Hertford North branch and incrasing services there?

 

[pete_m911]

Interesting to see what happens with the Kingston branch - terminating trains at Teddington and running them into Strawberry Hill depot seems a bit pointless. Struggling to see where a bay platform could be added. Also level crossings are going to be a huge issue at Motspur Park/New Malden - presumably West Barnes Lane in particular would have to be closed.

 

[swt_passenger]

...Also level crossings are going to be a huge issue at Motspur Park/New Malden - presumably West Barnes Lane in particular would have to be closed.

The SW branches fact sheet does say the level crossings will be closed...