Class 387

[WatcherZero]

Could be they were ordered for one of the losing franchise bidders (to meet the urgent requirement), if they had been for the winning bidder then they would have held off the announcement till December. Rail for London is the only interested party Porterbrook have named which could suggest they were the most likely customer. I would also think going to Great Northern a likely scenario, that would mean the entire 365 fleet (another 19) was released rather than 21 planned and would offer something more suitable than 319's for replacing the 323's at Northern (19 to 17 though the 17 has never been enough with diesels regularly required to fill in).

 

[JaJaWa]

Rail for London would be London Overground or TfL Rail surely? And the only newly electrified line there is Gospel Oak to Barking.

Edit: Or into Paddington high level??

 

[swt_passenger]

Rail for London would be London Overground or TfL Rail surely? And the only newly electrified line there is Gospel Oak to Barking.

Edit: Or into Paddington high level??

Gospel Oak to Barking stock is already on order, and Crossrail (using the Crossrail name) will use 345s into Paddington HL once they take over Heathrow Connect.

 

[physics34]

I would have thought Corby services post electrification might be an option. There was lots of talk initially of them winding up there, surely it is still feasible?

No official document ever mentioned Corby if I'm not mistaken. It was just some random things put into Wikipedia

 

[northwichcat]

Would their 110 mph capability be an advantage over the 350's when it comes to pathing on the WCML. Assuming these extra 387's are 4 car unites then that means 20 trains replacing 10x 350/4's, would that be enough to double up busy services and introduce a new Liverpool - Scotland sevive by splitting/joining at Preston?

If not for TPE or 323 routes then what other franchises/services could they run?

EDIT Just realised 350/4 are already 110mph capable

The problem is 4 cars between Manchester and Preston will likely be insufficient on most services in the forseeable future. Really if 20m carriages are used the services with Liverpool/Blackpool portions would need to be 12 car north of Preston so that 8 cars are available for Manchester.

Well cannot be for Northern I mean the idea of 120 new DMU carriages and 80 new EMU carriages would be too much of a shock for Northern customers.

I see Tony Miles has said the idea of 387s going directly to Northern or Great Western is unlikely.

 

[swt_passenger]

No official document ever mentioned Corby if I'm not mistaken. It was just some random things put into Wikipedia

I never found a published reference to 387s either.

In fact the published CP5 enhancements plans suggested 377s, as in:

"The following rolling stock is being assumed;
– Class 377 up to 12 cars, multiple pantographs (London to Corby)..."

Which I took to mean 'we'll design for generic 100 mph EMUS.'

Then of course Modern Railways also proposed Corby would get 365s fro Southeastern.

 

[D365]

I see Tony Miles has said the idea of 387s going directly to Northern or Great Western is unlikely.

Total pie-in-the-sky thinking: If GN takes on the 20 Class 387s, they ought to be used in place of the 19 Class 377/5s to replace an initial 21 Class 365s, which will transfer to GWR as planned. The repeat order of a further 20 units can then be used to replace the remaining 19 365s, which will transfer to Northern as part of the wider Class 323 replacement discussion. Providing a small increase in overall capacity in the process. Leaving the 377/5s to revert to Southern hands, or they be put into use on the 'CorPan Electrics'. Win-win all around?

 

[Class377/5]

Just been posted elsewhere by Paul Bigland that Porterbrook have another 80 vehicles opition and they won't be going far from a line that connects with Derby. Sounds like Corby services to me.

 

[D365]

Ugh, boring!

 

[hwl]

Just been posted elsewhere by Paul Bigland that Porterbrook have another 80 vehicles opition and they won't be going far from a line that connects with Derby. Sounds like Corby services to me.

Potentially good news all round and especially for SE passenegers in that case if DfT agrees the funding arrangements to take on the 25x 377s from Southern.

 

[northwichcat]

Total pie-in-the-sky thinking: If GN takes on the 20 Class 387s, they ought to be used in place of the 19 Class 377/5s to replace an initial 21 Class 365s, which will transfer to GWR as planned. The repeat order of a further 20 units can then be used to replace the remaining 19 365s, which will transfer to Northern as part of the wider Class 323 replacement discussion. Providing a small increase in overall capacity in the process. Leaving the 377/5s to revert to Southern hands, or they be put into use on the 'CorPan Electrics'. Win-win all around?

Also worth noting Northern will likely need a couple of extra EMUs for 'South Manchester' services (ignoring Hazel Grove) due to Macclesfield getting an all day 2tph in both directions and there currently being one Crewe-Bolton service in the morning peak which is DMU operated.

 

[westcoaster]

Just been posted elsewhere by Paul Bigland that Porterbrook have another 80 vehicles opition and they won't be going far from a line that connects with Derby. Sounds like Corby services to me.

A reprieve for Cauldwell depot and its staff?

 

[Class377/5]

A reprieve for Cauldwell depot and its staff?

Don't forget the franchise ITT stated that one road of Cauldwell was to be given over to EMT in 2017.

And the lease for Cauldwell depot lasts until 2024. Sounds ideal for the Corby fleet as planned.

 

[158722]

Just been posted elsewhere by Paul Bigland that Porterbrook have another 80 vehicles opition and they won't be going far from a line that connects with Derby. Sounds like Corby services to me.

That could mean many things. Irritating cryptic comment.

A line that connects with Derby? That could mean Crewe, as in Manchester-Crewe, for example...

 

[D365]

Don't forget the franchise ITT stated that one road of Cauldwell was to be given over to EMT in 2017.

And the lease for Cauldwell depot lasts until 2024. Sounds ideal for the Corby fleet as planned.

Yes, but why the new 387s for Corby, rather than Class 375/6 or 377/5? The latter being a fleet Cauldwell is very familiar with.

 

[47802]

Rail for London would be London Overground or TfL Rail surely? And the only newly electrified line there is Gospel Oak to Barking.

Edit: Or into Paddington high level??

Indeed I find it rather strange given TFL have ordered a load of Aventra's what would they want with 387's?

 

[hwl]

Yes, but why the new 387s for Corby, rather than Class 375/6 or 377/5? The latter being a fleet Cauldwell is very familiar with.

Keep it simple

377/5 are leased to TSGN (and their successors)
375/6 are needed by SE passengers.

387s have 110mph capability which will be useful on MML.

387s aren't that different to 377s

 

[jon0844]

I certainly wouldn't mind the 'Happy Trains' following in my trail

They don't look quite as happy post refresh. More mildly amused.

(Mind you, bar the lack of aircon, I think I'd prefer a 365 over a 377/387 any day of the week).

 

[hwl]

Indeed I find it rather strange given TFL have ordered a load of Aventra's what would they want with 387's?

Strange indeed but the only things I could think of (inaddition to short platforms at Paddington) is that it may be easier to use 2x 387 into the short platforms at Liverpool Street till they are rebuilt and stock may need be needed earlier than 710s are available for Goblin?

 

[Class 466]

Yes, but why the new 387s for Corby, rather than Class 375/6 or 377/5? The latter being a fleet Cauldwell is very familiar with.

The ongoing Class 375 Refurbishment is as close as 375/6s will get to that part of the world

But as other posters have stated 387s are 110mph max, which will undoubtedly be a more attractive option in comparison to units that have never worked on overheads

 

[JaJaWa]

I'm thinking a currently unannounced TfL takeover. Moorgate metro?

 

[northwichcat]

I'm thinking a currently unannounced TfL takeover. Moorgate metro?

Electrostars are 20cm taller than the current Moorgate stock, will they be able to fit though the tunnels?

Although, 319s are the same height as 313s so could 319s replace 313s with Electrostars heading for routes which either get or are expected to get 319s?

 

[JaJaWa]

Electrostars are 20cm taller than the current Moorgate stock, will they be able to fit though the tunnels?

Although, 319s are the same height as 313s so could 319s replace 313s with Electrostars heading for routes which either get or are expected to get 319s?

There was a commitment for new rolling stock on the Moorgate metro, so don't think users would be a happy about that.

Edit: Here's the specifications of that:

New trains for Moorgate services
–150 new metro carriages for Moorgate service (25 six-car units)
–Capital cost c.£225m
–Delivered in 2018

 

[northwichcat]

There was a commitment for new rolling stock on the Moorgate metro, so don't think users would be a happy about that.

Edit: Here's the specifications of that:

If that's set in stone and Electostars won't fit through the tunnels then we can probably rule out any idea of the additional 387s either being for Moorgate services or being for other services to allow existing stock to be cascaded to Moorgate services.

 

[hwl]

There are 5 franchises being awarded in the next 2 years where 387 (or equivalent cascaded stock might go).

Porterbrook must be pretty certain of a lot of orders


TPE - 387s make sense possible 350 cascade to West Midland?
Northern - possible 323 replacement else 319s all round
Greater Anglia - 321s being refurbed but not enough 387s to replace cl90 + Mk3s and sone 321s ex TSGN
West Midlands - Have issues with 319s and more lines being electrified and some existing services could be longer but 323s and 350s best fit.
East Midlands -387s ideal for Corby servies and stops SE 375s being taken


(SWT already have 707s on order so I didn't include them)

 

[Class377/5]

That could mean many things. Irritating cryptic comment.

A line that connects with Derby? That could mean Crewe, as in Manchester-Crewe, for example...

Well it's been mentioned that they are for to be eletrified routes and connect with line from Derby pretty much leaves Corby as the only opition. Fact that NR planning for Corby had been based around 4 car 20m units like a 377 strengthens this.

Yes, but why the new 387s for Corby, rather than Class 375/6 or 377/5? The latter being a fleet Cauldwell is very familiar with.

Because Corby currently had 125mph stock. The quicker acceleration of the 387s the calling pattern plus 110mph means less of issue time wise.

I'm thinking a currently unannounced TfL takeover. Moorgate metro?

Moorgate is getting a fleet of its own and requires 25x 6 cars, the 387 opitions are to small to fulfill this need.

 

[465fan]

Best option?

Send all of the 365s (40) to South Eastern; use them to release the 465/9 fleet etc. and on other relevent routes. Can the proposed move of 319s / 377s to Southeastern.

Send the new 387s (20) and the Thameslink ones (29) to Great Western along with the 8 being built just for GW (which I understand from my time there are being made not only Dual-Voltage but also battery-powered for North Downs. One uniform fleet based at Reading and also fit the new 20 with Batteries for Marlow, Henley, Bedwyn as well as on Oxford to Banbury.

Capacity vacuum on the Great Northern fulfilled by the 700s in part but missing some extra capacity - move the Class 377/2 fleet up there (15) which makes 4 x 12 car diagrams for additionals out of King's Cross or some 8 cars.

Hold the 377/5s on Southern (23) and send the 455s to the Coastway; being sure to keep back the Trailer Coaches to send to SWT to get rid of the 508 coaches. Fit them with Crappers and let them ply their trade as a uniform fleet based at Lover's Walk to Portsmouth, Southampton, Ore, Seaford, Littlehampton, West Worthing. If needs be, provide some surplus to SWT for use as 3+3+4 on Metro.

Take into account the 700s then covering off routes like London Bridge to Horsham (Thameslink) and extras to places like Grinstead, Eastbourne and Littlehampton and in theory all of the 377s (including /3s partnered with a 4 car for 10 Car Metro with a new suburban layout etc.) currently on Southern and the /5s is suitable.

Send Class 317s to GA and give every single on the "Blitz" of modernisation; put the Class 321s from GN up to West Yorkshire to work alongside the others (combined fleet size of 21) punch the 333s (16) across to Manchester where they could happily replace the 323s (16) for West Midlands. Use their 100mph capability for the routes down to Stoke and Crewe to get better paths and take advantage of the extra carriage, too.

According to my maths, anyway, that means that everything matches up and the maintenance costs across the board will come down. Uniform fleet of Networkers at Slade Green, uniform fleet of Siemens stuff in Manchester which could be looked after at Ardwick as well as Longsight, uniform fleet of Thyristor Mk3 stuff in Leeds, uniform fleet on TSGN except the 377s at Hornsey (but not a major problem) and the 313s / SWT 508 coaches all go so the fleet ages come down whilst also being a bit more suitable to the punters.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

There are 5 franchises being awarded in the next 2 years where 387 (or equivalent cascaded stock might go).

Porterbrook must be pretty certain of a lot of orders


TPE - 387s make sense possible 350 cascade to West Midland?
Northern - possible 323 replacement else 319s all round
Greater Anglia - 321s being refurbed but not enough 387s to replace cl90 + Mk3s and sone 321s ex TSGN
West Midlands - Have issues with 319s and more lines being electrified and some existing services could be longer but 323s and 350s best fit.
East Midlands -387s ideal for Corby servies and stops SE 375s being taken


(SWT already have 707s on order so I didn't include them)

This "Rail for London" thing was strengthened by a rumour that they might take over Hertford East and the Stratford - Bishops Stortford stopping service with the use of Drivers at Chingford and Bishops Stortford. 20 x 4 car with a delivery date similar to the Greater Anglia franchise renewal certainly makes this look a bit more realistic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Electrostars are 20cm taller than the current Moorgate stock, will they be able to fit though the tunnels?

Although, 319s are the same height as 313s so could 319s replace 313s with Electrostars heading for routes which either get or are expected to get 319s?

They did a test. Driver was apparently a bit shaky but a 377/5 made it.

 

[northwichcat]

Best option?

Send all of the 365s (40) to South Eastern; use them to release the 465/9 fleet etc. and on other relevent routes. Can the proposed move of 319s / 377s to Southeastern.

So Southeastern take on 4 car 365s which could be used on pretty much any route with electrics to use on 3rd rail routes and release 4 car 465s which can only be used on 3rd rail routes? I fail to see how any logic in that.

 

[465fan]

Well it's been mentioned that they are for to be eletrified routes and connect with line from Derby pretty much leaves Corby as the only opition. Fact that NR planning for Corby had been based around 4 car 20m units like a 377 strengthens this.



Because Corby currently had 125mph stock. The quicker acceleration of the 387s the calling pattern plus 110mph means less of issue time wise.



Moorgate is getting a fleet of its own and requires 25x 6 cars, the 387 opitions are to small to fulfill this need.

If somebody at the DfT could take heed of my comments below and make the railway work efficiently, then it would be better to commonise the fleet of Electrics to the future Stock for East Midlands when that is sparked up. Oh, what of a 91 + Mk4s?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

So Southeastern take on 4 car 365s which could be used on pretty much any route with electrics to use on 3rd rail routes and release 4 car 465s which can only be used on 3rd rail routes? I fail to see how any logic in that.

365s which used to work on DC and which would work incredibly ably on anything from London to Tunbridge Wells, Gillingham via Longfield and then as far as Dover, Ramsgate, Ashford and Canterbury? A fleet which would mean that the Bombardier stuff, which is newer, could go to a more adequate home? I think the option of sending 365s to join 465s where there is vast commonality is a fantastic idea. Solid acceleration profile means they would be just at home on a Victoria to Orpington stopper, too.

Don't forget the Southeastern network was only good for 10 on Metro; now it can do 12 and won't see the benefit of Thameslink despite 2000-era promises. The Thameslink Programme creates the capacity for more trains that then will have to run around as 8 or 10 when they could be 12; and if you're really desperate you could slap the 376s across to Southern where they are reasonably common to a 377 and happen to make 10 car formations; so you could slide them over and get a consequential smaller batch of 319s to cover the carriage fleet size loss and create a surplus and put 319s on Victoria to Orpington.

 

[physics34]

Best option?

Send all of the 365s (40) to South Eastern; use them to release the 465/9 fleet etc. and on other relevent routes. Can the proposed move of 319s / 377s to Southeastern.

Send the new 387s (20) and the Thameslink ones (29) to Great Western along with the 8 being built just for GW (which I understand from my time there are being made not only Dual-Voltage but also battery-powered for North Downs. One uniform fleet based at Reading and also fit the new 20 with Batteries for Marlow, Henley, Bedwyn as well as on Oxford to Banbury.

Capacity vacuum on the Great Northern fulfilled by the 700s in part but missing some extra capacity - move the Class 377/2 fleet up there (15) which makes 4 x 12 car diagrams for additionals out of King's Cross or some 8 cars.

Hold the 377/5s on Southern (23) and send the 455s to the Coastway; being sure to keep back the Trailer Coaches to send to SWT to get rid of the 508 coaches. Fit them with Crappers and let them ply their trade as a uniform fleet based at Lover's Walk to Portsmouth, Southampton, Ore, Seaford, Littlehampton, West Worthing. If needs be, provide some surplus to SWT for use as 3+3+4 on Metro.

Take into account the 700s then covering off routes like London Bridge to Horsham (Thameslink) and extras to places like Grinstead, Eastbourne and Littlehampton and in theory all of the 377s (including /3s partnered with a 4 car for 10 Car Metro with a new suburban layout etc.) currently on Southern and the /5s is suitable.

Send Class 317s to GA and give every single on the "Blitz" of modernisation; put the Class 321s from GN up to West Yorkshire to work alongside the others (combined fleet size of 21) punch the 333s (16) across to Manchester where they could happily replace the 323s (16) for West Midlands. Use their 100mph capability for the routes down to Stoke and Crewe to get better paths and take advantage of the extra carriage, too.

According to my maths, anyway, that means that everything matches up and the maintenance costs across the board will come down. Uniform fleet of Networkers at Slade Green, uniform fleet of Siemens stuff in Manchester which could be looked after at Ardwick as well as Longsight, uniform fleet of Thyristor Mk3 stuff in Leeds, uniform fleet on TSGN except the 377s at Hornsey (but not a major problem) and the 313s / SWT 508 coaches all go so the fleet ages come down whilst also being a bit more suitable to the punters.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


This "Rail for London" thing was strengthened by a rumour that they might take over Hertford East and the Stratford - Bishops Stortford stopping service with the use of Drivers at Chingford and Bishops Stortford. 20 x 4 car with a delivery date similar to the Greater Anglia franchise renewal certainly makes this look a bit more realistic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


They did a test. Driver was apparently a bit shaky but a 377/5 made it.

nice ideas......

but... the TL 377/2 are needed at southern for Milton Keynes strengthening for a start

New layout for the suburban 377s has been mentioned in Dft and Network Rail documents, but no more than a mention i believe. This shouldve been done when the 377s got refreshed.... but currently 377s are used so expansively youll find a unit on an Ore to Victoria being used on a Victora to Sutton via Crystal Palace just hours later for example.

and the 313s are definately at southern until at least the end of the franchise.