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Future of Class 91s after introduction of SETs?

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RichmondCommu

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Just a though; could the class 91's perhaps follow the class 87's / class 56's / class 92's and head overseas? Perhaps that would be their best bet.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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During the daytime on weekdays, the xx46 LM fast service off Euston, 110mph max, no tilt 350, departs Rugby at xx42, that’s a start-start time of just 56 minutes (and that’s with a stop at MK). At peak times it’s a little longer as they get caught up in the peak hour extras.
The few northbound pendos that call at Rugby do start-start of 75, 50, 50, 50, 54, 55 and 62 minutes. The ones that do 50 and 54 mins have no intermediate stops. If they did have one stop, they'd barely do it faster than a 350. The others have one or more stops.
Lack of tilt on this section I put it to you has little effect. More surprising is the tiny effect that the combination of tilt and pendo’s higher speed has on timings.

The problem is fast/slow switching of LM trains, and the VT stopping patterns.
Tilt/EPS gives you 15+ minutes benefit Euston-Crewe.
This is borne out by riding on a 221 running at 110mph with tilt switched out.
 

RichmondCommu

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I believe the intention, such as it was as this was all rather blue sky, was to deploy IC225s on the Sheffield and Nottingham fasts which only have around three intermediate stops.

And yet they would have still struggled to get away from the numerous curves at anything like the rate that a Meridian does.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How many MK4s could East Midlands Parkway take including the 91 and DVT?

Why East Midlands Parkway and not any other station?
 

ainsworth74

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And yet they would have still struggled to get away from the numerous curves at anything like the rate that a Meridian does.

I don't disagree with that just adding some more information (as I can remember it at least). Certainly I'm far from convinced by the case for taking the 91s and using them on the MML but I wonder how a modern electric locomotive like an 88 would manage with a rake of Mk4s?
 

RichmondCommu

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Certainly I'm far from convinced by the case for taking the 91s and using them on the MML but I wonder how a modern electric locomotive like an 88 would manage with a rake of Mk4s?

That's a fair point. However I wonder whether you would lose some flexibility compared to an entire fleet of five car EMU's that can be doubled up during periods of high demand.

How fast can a class 88 go? Assuming that it can operate at 125 mph I would be interested to know how its acceleration would compare to an 125 mph EMU with distributed traction.
 

JamesRowden

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The potential short-term work that I can see for Mark 4s is for them to be combined with cascaded class 90s from East Anglia to operate the proposed Basingstoke to Manchester `Cross Country' service via East West Rail until HS2 displaces enough Pendolinos to operate the service. Cascaded Pendolinos might also be useful for the Manchester to Scotland TPE route.
 

SpacePhoenix

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The potential short-term work that I can see for Mark 4s is for them to be combined with cascaded class 90s from East Anglia to operate the proposed Basingstoke to Manchester `Cross Country' service via East West Rail until HS2 displaces enough Pendolinos to operate the service. Cascaded Pendolinos might also be useful for the Manchester to Scotland TPE route.

Could DC capability easily be added to a class 91? If it is physically possible, would a 3rd rail power supply be able to handle the power drawn by a class 91?
 

D365

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Could DC capability easily be added to a class 91? If it is physically possible, would a 3rd rail power supply be able to handle the power drawn by a class 91?

Out of the many, many 'questions' you've asked, surely this one has got to top the lot...
 

ainsworth74

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How fast can a class 88 go? Assuming that it can operate at 125 mph I would be interested to know how its acceleration would compare to an 125 mph EMU with distributed traction.

The 88 was more of an example as it's only rated to 100mph and, of course, there is now plenty of 110mph+ on the MML so I can't see it being deployed on the MML.

It would be very interesting to see how a modern 125mph compared with a modern 125mph EMU. I suspect that the EMU would win!
 

jon91

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I reckon they should be given 3rd rail compatibility, coupled to Class 442s with Class 142 carriages added for extra capacity

... and driven straight into EMR for conversion to razor blades. <D
 

Hairy Bear

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I believe the intention, such as it was as this was all rather blue sky, was to deploy IC225s on the Sheffield and Nottingham fasts which only have around three intermediate stops.

Except.......

1. Mk 4,s out of guage south of wigston.
2. MML is RA5 if you want to run at 125 due to weak underbridges.
3. would be unable to maintain meridian timings due to worse power/weight ratio than a hst.

So are we we back to 442 with a class 20 each end, 'd' stock or the logical answer ....class 800 bi-modes ?.
 

Bletchleyite

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Except.......

1. Mk 4,s out of guage south of wigston.

Work can be done to resolve this.

2. MML is RA5 if you want to run at 125 due to weak underbridges.

And this, if it makes financial sense to do so.

3. would be unable to maintain meridian timings due to worse power/weight ratio than a hst.

91 (or other e-lok) at both ends?
 

DarloRich

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The potential short-term work that I can see for Mark 4s is for them to be combined with cascaded class 90s from East Anglia to operate the proposed Basingstoke to Manchester 'Cross Country' service via East West Rail until HS2 displaces enough Pendolinos to operate the service. Cascaded Pendolinos might also be useful for the Manchester to Scotland TPE route.

eh?

Could DC capability easily be added to a class 91? If it is physically possible, would a 3rd rail power supply be able to handle the power drawn by a class 91?

EH?????????? some people on this thread need to go away and have little lie down!

I would be very sad to see what should be useful assets scrapped especially when we are lacking capacity in so many areas. Clearly they are only going to be useful for longer distance passenger services rather than local trundling.
 

Dave1987

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It is amazing when this country is so much in debt and severely lacking enough trains that we are contemplating scrapping stock. If they are most suited to work on the ECML makes you wonder why the DFT ordered the IEP's for the EC and not other lines which are crying out for more stock.
 

47802

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It is amazing when this country is so much in debt and severely lacking enough trains that we are contemplating scrapping stock. If they are most suited to work on the ECML makes you wonder why the DFT ordered the IEP's for the EC and not other lines which are crying out for more stock.



Oh here we go the everything must last forever syndrome, and HST's were due for replacement clearly the Dft looked at the overall business case regarding the IC225 sets and decided that replacement by IEP was the better option, added to which that to match the IEP performance levels you need to knock a couple of carriages out of 225 sets, and the biggest issue regarding rolling stock at the moment is not electric stock.
 

D365

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Enthusiasts can't seem to accept that the IC225s are in fact ageing, and that there is far less Mk4 coaching stock to cannibalise post-IEP.
 

D365

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Hence VTEC are looking at retaining a few sets for their additional services. The Class 91 was only designed for a 30 year lifespan, keeping the full fleet in service will require some serious attention.
 

317666

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Hopefully Booths of Rotherham for the Mk4 sets, can't stand them (I do like 91s as locos but because of their poor acceleration I can't see where they would realistically go).
 

JamesRowden

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The potential short-term work that I can see for Mark 4s is for them to be combined with cascaded class 90s from East Anglia to operate the proposed Basingstoke to Manchester `Cross Country' service via East West Rail until HS2 displaces enough Pendolinos to operate the service. Cascaded Pendolinos might also be useful for the Manchester to Scotland TPE route.

DarloRich said:

I'll explain.

The Western Route Study published this year included this part:
Western Route Study pp125-126 said:
C2: Additional cross-country service

The Western Route Study 2019 ITSS anticipates an additional crosscountry service on the Reading – Basingstoke Route Section to create 3tph. This service is anticipated to run between Basingstoke and Manchester Piccadilly via the East West Rail route, offering a significant improvement in journey time between Reading, Oxford and Manchester. However, it would further add to capacity utilisation between Southcote Junction and Oxford Road Junction and at Reading Station.

In order to make best use of system capacity, this proposed additional cross-country service per hour in the 2019 ITSS should be included in the optimisation of train paths on this route. The proposed additional service parallels existing services between Basingstoke and Reading and would bring forward the point at which an infrastructure intervention is required. Starting this additional cross-country service from Reading or a location to the east would avoid the inefficient use of capacity at Reading Station and also between Southcote Junction and Oxford Road Junction, while potentially creating new connectivity choices. Possible locations to start the service from include Heathrow Airport and Old Oak Common to support the Cross-Boundary Conditional Outputs.

This then produces the question of what stock would operate this service. Tilting 125mph electric stock would be the obvious option considering the Milton Keynes to Manchester section of the service.

I think that HS2 will remove the long distance London market from the South WCML (except for Milton Keynes and Coventry to London), and that the long distance market served would be Watford and Milton Keynes to the North. I don't think that the remaining demand would require the present full Pendolino service of:
  • 3tph London to Birmingham
  • 3tph London to Manchester
  • 1tph London to Glasgow (direct)
  • 1tph London to Liverpool
But of course some Pendolinos would be required to make the WCML Birmingham to Scotland services fully electric (I know that they presently run through to/from London, but that fact makes no difference in this case).
Therefore some Pendolinos might be available for other routes such as the proposed new cross country service between Basingstoke and Manchester via East West Rail, which would effectively replace one of the present London to Manchester services.

However, there is a gap between 2019 (plus a bit with the news of more delays to East West Rail) and HS2 opening in 2026.

Therefore I am suggesting using Mark 4s combined with Class 90s (because they have better acceleration than class 91s and only Reading to Didcot would allow greater than 110mph running) as an alternative to:
  • Buying new 125mph tilting stock when this may cause there to be an excess of such units once HS2 opens.
  • Buying new 110mph intercity stock to be:
    • Cascaded after a few years.
    • Used on the long term even though there may be spare 125mph tilting stock.
  • Using 110mph commuter style stock
  • Acquire some Super-Voyagers from other cross country routes with cascaded Meridians from Midland Mainline electrification taking their place.
I do not know what the post-HS2 timetable will look like and therefore cannot calculate the availablity of Pendolinos. I cannot tell which of the stock options for the Basingstoke to Manchester service would be the best, but Class 90s with Mark 4s is on my list of possibilities.
 
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LNW-GW Joint

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It is amazing when this country is so much in debt and severely lacking enough trains that we are contemplating scrapping stock. If they are most suited to work on the ECML makes you wonder why the DFT ordered the IEP's for the EC and not other lines which are crying out for more stock.

A large factor in the IEP decision was the need to have a viable production run at Newton Aycliffe, and for the efficiencies of a largely single fleet type for ICEC.
The extra IEP capacity will also deliver a big premium increase.
Where to cascade 225s would be a secondary factor.

"Other lines" (eg XC) don't have the business case, and MML isn't ready to replace its fleet.
We'll see what the TPE franchise award turns up.
 
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sng7

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Couldn't the 91's be re-geared from 140mph top speed down to 125 or even 110mph depending on proposed work to improve low end acceleration bearing in mind they would assumably undergo a big overhaul before being redeployed anyway?
 

Philip Phlopp

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Hence VTEC are looking at retaining a few sets for their additional services. The Class 91 was only designed for a 30 year lifespan, keeping the full fleet in service will require some serious attention.

That idea will eventually come to an end sooner rather than later, now AT300 orders independent of the core IEP order have been announced.

VTEC don't want IC225 sets, but they couldn't reach a satisfactory financial agreement with Agility Trains for additional IEP sets. They can now shop around with various ROSCOs and come to a satisfactory agreement for a conventional operating lease on an almost identical (and compatible) AT300 set which can be maintained by Hitachi.

I can't see anywhere that the Class 91 locomotives could sensibly be used post IEP introduction on the ECML. EMR is the best place for them, unfortunately. The coaches, unless they're ready to collapse in a heap of rust, like some other Metro-Cammell stuff, might be adaptable to something Chiltern-like.

Since there's a healthy amount of fantasy going around, I'd really like to see the Mark 4 stock being used on longer and more frequent tourist trains over the WHL, with comfortable seating, restaurant cars and perhaps, if it can be managed without compromising the structural integrity, adding larger windows or creating a panorama type car. Yes, I have been thinking about the Glacier Express.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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Couldn't the 91's be re-geared from 140mph top speed down to 125 or even 110mph depending on proposed work to improve low end acceleration bearing in mind they would assumably undergo a big overhaul before being redeployed anyway?

I doubt they are geared for 140mph today.
Since the early tests on the ECML there has never been any requirement to run at that speed.
They will have work until c2020 anyway, and by then they will be 30 years old.
They were also designed for freight use overnight, but they have hardly ever been used in this way, or "blunt end first".
The freight TOCs might be interested in a cheap fleet of electric locos, although there are still plenty of idle class 90/92s lying around.
 

Harbon 1

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Would they work in top+tail mode at all? Surely that would solve some issues of not having distributed traction?

Also aren't they noted for their high end acceleration?
 

SpacePhoenix

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Hence VTEC are looking at retaining a few sets for their additional services. The Class 91 was only designed for a 30 year lifespan, keeping the full fleet in service will require some serious attention.

What sort of state will they be in mechanically, structurally and electrically by the time they're 30 years old? Would the work needed to extend their lifespan be worth it?
 
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