Future of Class 91s after introduction of SETs?

[absolutelymilk]

What are the plans for the Class 91s locos (and Mk4 coaches) currently used on the ECML after they are replaced by Class 800s? I saw that there was a possibility of cascading them to the MML once electrification was complete but with that pushed back significantly I guess that is no longer an option.

 

[ainsworth74]

Well, currently, Virgin are proposing to keep several shortened sets of Mk4s and 91s for the fast Edinburgh services so it's possible that a few will remain on the ECML even after the SETs are delivered.

 

[jopsuk]

Beyond that, no current public document I'm aware of from the DfT, any franchise, any prospective franchise or from the ROSCO says anything on their future. Anything else is just enthusiast/rail media froth

 

[D6975]

It's been discussed before. The sets are only really suitable for long distance, infrequent stop services, so their possible use is limited. The MML option was discussed, as was the possibility of eliminating the under the wires Voyager turns on the WCML and even going to places like Salop or Holyhead with 67s or 68s doing the non electrified bit.

This does bring up an interesting point that someone on here will know. Now that Virgin are involved with WCML and ECML services into Edinburgh, are the two sets of crews still completely separate, or is there now some degree of merging going on?

edit - my initial thought was no, because of the different uniforms.

 

[DasLunatic]

The rumour mill says that Greater Anglia will get them. The 91s may or may not be regeared for 110mph running. However, these are just rumors. They may well end up on the scrapheap.

 

[thealexweb]

I know it's unlikely but Transpennine? We can always hope.

 

[absolutelymilk]

It's been discussed before. The sets are only really suitable for long distance, infrequent stop services, so their possible use is limited. The MML option was discussed, as was the possibility of eliminating the under the wires Voyager turns on the WCML and even going to places like Salop or Holyhead with 67s or 68s doing the non electrified bit.

This does bring up an interesting point that someone on here will know. Now that Virgin are involved with WCML and ECML services into Edinburgh, are the two sets of crews still completely separate, or is there now some degree of merging going on?

edit - my initial thought was no, because of the different uniforms.

Using 225s instead of Voyagers wouldn't give a significant benefit when the tilting function is lost surely? Compared to having to swap locos at Crewe if that is what you mean.

I imagine they are still separate as they are separate legal companies - VTEC is actually 90% owned by Stagecoach but they used the Virgin name because the brand is better regarded
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I know it's unlikely but Transpennine? We can always hope.

Class 91s have quite bad acceleration so are unsuitable for routes with short distances between stops, it's only because of their high top speed that they are useful on the ECML which has a fairly long distance between stops, as opposed to Transpennine which does not.

Even the current Liverpool - Newcastle route has too many stops to make it worthwhile, although it possibly could be used for a Liverpool - Manchester - Leeds - York - Newcastle with no stops in between. However I doubt there are any spare paths on the line for this.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

This does bring up an interesting point that someone on here will know. Now that Virgin are involved with WCML and ECML services into Edinburgh, are the two sets of crews still completely separate, or is there now some degree of merging going on?

Marketing is shared, and maybe a few back-office functions.
They don't even share a common web site or booking system.
But as the West Coast franchise is being relet in 18 months there is no point in merging operations only to unpick them later.
In any case the DfT is very leery about franchises not accounting properly for their individual costs/revenues.
VWC and VXC were at one point joined at the hip.
That is very unlikely to happen again.

 

[D6975]

Using 225s instead of Voyagers wouldn't give a significant benefit when the tilting function is lost surely? Compared to having to swap locos at Crewe if that is what you mean.

The benefit is significant. Not to the services that get 225s, they would see a little change (slower) in terms of times, but you do suddenly get a whole bunch of Voyagers made available for strengthening other services away from the wires or even new routes. That is a significant benefit.

Bear in mind that if mk4 sets were used for services like Salop or Holyhead ( or even all the way to sunny Blackpool), they would be considerably shorter sets than as used on the ECML at present (something like 91+6+DVT possibly?). The lack of tilt would be offset to some degree by the acceleration of a short mk4 rake. The southern end of the WCML isn't the bit where the tilt comes into play anyway, apart from the bit just southeast of Stafford.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Bear in mind that if mk4 sets were used for services like Salop or Holyhead ( or even all the way to sunny Blackpool), they would be considerably shorter sets than as used on the ECML at present (something like 91+6+DVT possibly?). The lack of tilt would be offset to some degree by the acceleration of a short mk4 rake. The southern end of the WCML isn't the bit where the tilt comes into play anyway, apart from the bit just southeast of Stafford.

Those who know say the WCML timetable will not work without tilt south of Rugby.
Tilt is also used at many locations throughout the WCML.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Full of obsolete electronics, with increasing difficulty of obtaining parts. Will be approx. 30 years old when the IEP comes on stream. I suspect their destiny will involve EMR.

 

[47802]

The rumour mill says that Greater Anglia will get them. The 91s may or may not be regeared for 110mph running. However, these are just rumors. They may well end up on the scrapheap.

Indeed 225 sets with new loco's and maybe new DVT's with passenger accommodation, however new units much more probable

 

[D6975]

Those who know say the WCML timetable will not work without tilt south of Rugby.
Tilt is also used at many locations throughout the WCML.

During the daytime on weekdays, the xx46 LM fast service off Euston, 110mph max, no tilt 350, departs Rugby at xx42, that’s a start-start time of just 56 minutes (and that’s with a stop at MK). At peak times it’s a little longer as they get caught up in the peak hour extras.
The few northbound pendos that call at Rugby do start-start of 75, 50, 50, 50, 54, 55 and 62 minutes. The ones that do 50 and 54 mins have no intermediate stops. If they did have one stop, they'd barely do it faster than a 350. The others have one or more stops.
Lack of tilt on this section I put it to you has little effect. More surprising is the tiny effect that the combination of tilt and pendo’s higher speed has on timings.

 

[physics34]

Push pull the class 91s with Class 442 stock.....!

ONLY JOKING ha ha

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

What about conversion to sleeper trains?

Push pull with 442 units?

 

[absolutelymilk]

During the daytime on weekdays, the xx46 LM fast service off Euston, 110mph max, no tilt 350, departs Rugby at xx42, that’s a start-start time of just 56 minutes (and that’s with a stop at MK). At peak times it’s a little longer as they get caught up in the peak hour extras.
The few northbound pendos that call at Rugby do start-start of 75, 50, 50, 50, 54, 55 and 62 minutes. The ones that do 50 and 54 mins have no intermediate stops. If they did have one stop, they'd barely do it faster than a 350. The others have one or more stops.
Lack of tilt on this section I put it to you has little effect. More surprising is the tiny effect that the combination of tilt and pendo’s higher speed has on timings.

350s are four-car trains though...

 

[thenorthern]

I heard they were going to end up on the Midland Main Line post electrification but that is a long way away now.

I heard another rumour that Virgin Trains East Coast were wanting to retain all the Intercity 225s to strengthen existing services and introduce a half hourly Edinburgh to London Kings Cross service to compete with the new GNER but that is pure speculation.

 

[furnessvale]

350s are four-car trains though...

I presume the available power is pro rata ie similar power to weight ratio?

 

[87019Chris]

What about conversion to sleeper trains?

Push pull with 442 units?

Well you say this but the 91's were designed to work sleeper services during the night but we're never actually allocated or used for the service I believe. So that is a could happen I'm sure if the ROSCO had the price low enough they would be popular.

Also in terms of the Mk. 4's would it not be possible to use class 67/68's (even 88's?) with the stock over routes without electrification in place yet as there are a lot of spare 67's sitting around and I'm sure DBS would love to find a use for them? And DRS will always be happy to put locomotives to use and earn some cash.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Yes, I recall reading they could be used as such, so I thought why not suggest it

Could they not also be used for Hull - London with a drag between Hull and Doncaster?

 

[IanXC]

Well you say this but the 91's were designed to work sleeper services during the night but we're never actually allocated or used for the service I believe. So that is a could happen I'm sure if the ROSCO had the price low enough they would be popular.

Attractive as this idea is, the train supply figures are:

Class 90 index 95
Class 91 index 95
Class 92 index (AC) 108

So unfortunately a 91 would be no more able to meet the new sleeper stock ETS requirements than a 90.

 

[ainsworth74]

Full of obsolete electronics, with increasing difficulty of obtaining parts. Will be approx. 30 years old when the IEP comes on stream. I suspect their destiny will involve EMR.

That obviously applies to the 91s but does it also apply to the Mk4s?

Well you say this but the 91's were designed to work sleeper services during the night but we're never actually allocated or used for the service I believe. So that is a could happen I'm sure if the ROSCO had the price low enough they would be popular.

Well it was expected to be hauling the ECML sleepers which, of course, after ECML electrification ceased to exist so there were never any for them to do!

Also in terms of the Mk. 4's would it not be possible to use class 67/68's (even 88's?) with the stock over routes without electrification in place yet as there are a lot of spare 67's sitting around and I'm sure DBS would love to find a use for them? And DRS will always be happy to put locomotives to use and earn some cash.

A Mk4 is just like any other locomotive hauled coach so it can work happily with just about any locomotive on the network today. It uses TDM for the DVT to locomotive communication so only TDM equipped locomotives can be used with the DVT unless that is changed (which can be done see the Chiltern Mk3s which now use AAR). Whilst ETS is just the standard sort used by everything other than HST Mk3s (which also means that 91s can and have be used with other marks of coach including Mk1s).

The only significant constraint is that only the TSOE vehicle (the one next to a 91 in a 225 formation) or the pointy end of the DVT can be coupled to locomotives in service. Other than that they are just a hauled coach.

My personal feeling is that the 91s days might very well be numbered but the Mk4s may well find a second life somewhere else using a different locomotive.

Could they not also be used for Hull - London with a drag between Hull and Doncaster?

Both Hull Trains and Virgin East Coast will be using bi-modes for those services.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

That obviously applies to the 91s but does it also apply to the Mk4s?

Does it also apply to anything else built from the late 80s to the late 90s?

 

[87019Chris]

Mk.4's to be moved to XC used with either a bi mode or a diesel locomotive and then the XC voyagers as much as it pains me to say but could some be moved onto TPE. Not all of them as there might be enough stock to move them all from XC but enough to move some to TPE to lengthen some trains? Is there more capacity in a 220 over a 185? I don't know, but I would want a interior re-design on the 220's?

The 91's wouldn't be suitable for freight work, so that's another avenue gone, they wouldn't work sleepers on the WCML, is there a plan to change the GWR sleeper coaches? After electrification as the current sleeper has enough padding in it to handle a loco change, despite the 'bump in the night' somewhere en route. But other than possible MML routes which would mean the MK4's are unavailable there is not much they would be good for, shame as I'm ire the locomotives have at least another 7 years left in them. Export for abroad maybe…

 

[ash39]

A few options with varying chances of coming to fruition;

Using 10 6-coach sets for TPE Manchester Airport-Scotland sevices, freeing up 350's for elsewhere and boosting capacity.

Using the mk4's & DVT's with 68's on non-wired intercity routes. 91's either for export, to replace Freightliner 86's or scrap?

Mk4's to Anglia to replace the mk3's. Seems unlikely though given the indication that new stock is the prefered option for that route.

 

[Stats]

I heard they were going to end up on the Midland Main Line post electrification but that is a long way away now.

I heard another rumour that Virgin Trains East Coast were wanting to retain all the Intercity 225s to strengthen existing services and introduce a half hourly Edinburgh to London Kings Cross service to compete with the new GNER but that is pure speculation.

VTEC's franchise agreement includes a half hourly service to Edinburgh starting next year. From 2019 1tph will be fast calling at Newcastle only or Newcastle and York only in alternate hours. They propose to retain 6 IC225 sets and a 7th Class 91 operating 5 diagrams a day. They will however only retain these sets if they are granted all the 6.5 paths per hour they have applied for. They will not retain the IC225 sets if they are only permitted to operate 6 or fewer tph.

 

[thealexweb]

A few options with varying chances of coming to fruition;

Using 10 6-coach sets for TPE Manchester Airport-Scotland sevices, freeing up 350's for elsewhere and boosting capacity.

Six coach sets, that cannot be strengthened, are insufficient right now though. Some services run with eight car 350s with some having to stand. If the fixed formation is to be seriously explored the sets cannot be shrunk too much.

 

[66Yorks]

Platform length would be an issue on the TPE route.

I know it's unlikely but Transpennine? We can always hope.

 

[RichmondCommu]

I heard they were going to end up on the Midland Main Line post electrification but that is a long way away now.

I think it would have been a none starter. Too much many station stops and permanent speed restrictions to accelerate away from.

 

[ainsworth74]

I think it would have been a none starter. Too much many station stops and permanent speed restrictions to accelerate away from.

I believe the intention, such as it was as this was all rather blue sky, was to deploy IC225s on the Sheffield and Nottingham fasts which only have around three intermediate stops.