ASLEF and RMT agree: no more DOO or DCO

[mandub]

Tony Miles has said he understands at least one Northern bidder have said they'll be a second member of staff on all services and given a guarantee that no service will run with a single member of staff. If that is correct and they win then a number of the union anti-DCO claims will be unfounded.

It almost seems DfT changing DOO for DCO between the Northern consultation and the ITT being released has made no difference to what the unions say as if they think the two are exactly the same. Given the number of posts on here from conductors saying they stay in the rear cab on late services except when opening the doors for their own safety, surely that should be something the RMT should be saying about DCO given the possibility the second member of staff could be barred from staying in the rear cab to provide a more visible staffing presence.

Yep. I don't understand why the RMT don't articulate this point.
I'd agree it's very likely that guards (or whatever we'll be called under DCO) will be expected to be out patrolling all trains including late services on Friday/Saturday nights. Personally it's not a role I relish and I didn't sign up to be a customer service/security guard on the late trains out of Picc.

I understand and accept that passengers want a presence out in the carriages on these services. I guess I just don't want to be performing that role for my job. I'll need to move on to another job if/when this comes to pass.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Tony Miles has said he understands at least one Northern bidder have said they'll be a second member of staff on all services and given a guarantee that no service will run with a single member of staff. If that is correct and they win then a number of the union anti-DCO claims will be unfounded.

Not necessarily, DOO services in Glasgow operate with a second member of staff on all services. The second member of staff isn't a guard though.

 

[scotsman]

Not necessarily, DOO services in Glasgow operate with a second member of staff on all services. The second member of staff isn't a guard though.

Not quite. Transport Scotland requires Scotrail to have one on each DOO train, but the trains can still run if they don't - but it's a SQUIRE failure, and a penalty has to be paid. IIRC, it's roughly the same penalty owed for a cancellation.

 

[A-driver]

If the TUs believe that taxpayers are prepared for ever growing subsidies they are living in gaga land...

Who said they did believe that? I certainly didn't. DOO is something only pushed for by the accountants. On all levels (from TOC to DfT) there are people with very strong opposition to DOO on safety grounds. As I say, statistics prove that DOO is not as safe a method as staff dispatch (platform or guard). So it's certainly not just unions opposed to DOO. But sadly what the accountants say tends to be what happens, or at least what is aimed for.

 

[northwichcat]

Not necessarily, DOO services in Glasgow operate with a second member of staff on all services. The second member of staff isn't a guard though.

I didn't say all the union claims will be unfounded but some of them would be such as the driver potentially being on his/her own if something goes wrong.

 

[muz379]

Tony Miles has said he understands at least one Northern bidder have said they'll be a second member of staff on all services and given a guarantee that no service will run with a single member of staff. If that is correct and they win then a number of the union anti-DCO claims will be unfounded.

It almost seems DfT changing DOO for DCO between the Northern consultation and the ITT being released has made no difference to what the unions say as if they think the two are exactly the same. Given the number of posts on here from conductors saying they stay in the rear cab on late services except when opening the doors for their own safety, surely that should be something the RMT should be saying about DCO given the possibility the second member of staff could be barred from staying in the rear cab to provide a more visible staffing presence.

RE: Gurantees of a second member of staff
But then no money will be saved if there is a guarantee that no service will ever run with a single member of crew on board because the TOC will not be able to cut down on the number of "guards" and tighten up diagrams to single crew services indirectly . In fact they will probably in fact have to increase numbers because killing off morale in this way will lead to degradation in relations and a shortage of willing rest day volunteers .

I say it wont save any money in ongoing operation costs because even if the conductors salary is cut (not retrospectively) ,you are going to have to increase numbers of dispatchers . I know many stations at which any form of driver control of the doors would not possibly work safely either because of passenger numbers or because of curvature/visibility issues . Dispatchers will also want extra £££ given that they will be the ones completing the final train safety check before giving the RTS which is a lot more responsibility . You will also need more dispatchers and a spare complement of these to cover absence . Then the drivers will want increases as well the costs that come with a further competence to assess them and their managers on . To back up the "guards" who will now be expected to perform revenue duties at all hours you will also need more security staff . Or for the Northern franchise to bid for an increasing level of BTP resources . If you take raw numbers into account the difference between a guards salary and an RPA's salary is about £9k . If you really think you can sweeten drivers and dispatchers whilst providing an increased security presence for £9k a year per guard then you must be having a laugh . Not to mention that relies on the unlikely prospect that the RMT would accept conductors at Northern being dropped £9k a year whilst retaining duties RPA's are currently not expected to carry out . Even if the RMT would be powerless to prevent agency staff being used in on board roles ,ASLEF would never accept it

Ive said it before , ive said it again , there is a simple way Northern or the new franchise owner could boost revenue collection figures from day 1 , and that is fit more door panels . This would face no opposition from any union and would boost goodwill significantly as it allows guards to earn more commission and shows them their job is safe . No agreements would have to be negotiated or anything like that . Fit them , show them where they are , and you are done

RE: barring guards from rear cabs .

This is a non issue which is why I personally think the RMT is not bothered about it . It is actually the TOC that currently tells guards to remain in their back cabs if they feel it is too dangerous to perform revenue/customer service duties because they have a responsibility to protect the health and safety of their employees . The RMT already knows that the implementation of DCO would make no difference to this , and coupled with the fact that a second member of staff is going to be mandatory there will be a lot of "guards" on late Friday and Saturday night turns getting paid to sit in their back cab doing nothing because there is no way that the TOC will be able to get round its responsibility to protect staff from assault .
The only way that barring guards from cabs would result in a reduction of "guards " remaining in their cabs is by either sending guards out in teams on late night trains on fri/sat , or on ale trails and football specials . Or having increased security/BTP presence on trains and on stations to prevent those traveling who are unfit and deal with incidents as they occur .

Otherwise Friday and Saturday night will be business as usual

 

[northwichcat]

But then no money will be saved if there is a guarantee that no service will ever run with a single member of crew on board

I thought the idea behind DCO was so the on board conductors spend more time on revenue duties, so it could save money by requiring less RPIs or AFCs.

With some delays being down to the conductor not getting to the back of the train in good time I wonder how much Network Rail fine Northern for delays and how much less they could pay in fines by changing the door arrangements.

because the TOC will not be able to cut down on the number of "guards"

The next TOC will have to increase staffing as they'll be more services to run and not just services which will transfer from TPE.

It is actually the TOC that currently tells guards to remain in their back cabs if they feel it is too dangerous to perform revenue/customer service duties because they have a responsibility to protect the health and safety of their employees.

It seems some conductors decide a late train is not safe to venture out full stop even if there's 30 people on board and most of them are pensioners but some conductors decide it is safe to venture out on a Saturday night when there's 150 people on board and probably a number of which have been drinking.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Not quite. Transport Scotland requires Scotrail to have one on each DOO train, but the trains can still run if they don't - but it's a SQUIRE failure, and a penalty has to be paid. IIRC, it's roughly the same penalty owed for a cancellation.

Reading between the lines it is a similar thing in the Northern ITT. The TOC has to commit to having two "members of staff" on the train, but it would be a contractual failing not a safety failing if they don't.

My point was that in Scotland the "second member of staff" doesn't need to be a guard and doesn't need to be paid the wages that a guard would receive. And, of course, Transport Scotland could change their mind and have the revenue people taken away without any operational implications whatsoever. Not, of course, that I would think that the Department for Transport would ever break a promise!

 

[muz379]

I thought the idea behind DCO was so the on board conductors spend more time on revenue duties, so it could save money by requiring less RPIs or AFCs.

With some delays being down to the conductor not getting to the back of the train in good time I wonder how much Network Rail fine Northern for delays and how much less they could pay in fines by changing the door arrangements.

That may be the idea behind DCO . However as I said they could increase revenue takings overnight by fitting more door panels . And would not have to go through the costly and protracted scheme of implementing DCO . Paying off drivers and dispatchers , paying off conductors who do not want to change roles etc etc .

Not to mention whilst Northern still operate trains made up of non compatible units you will still need RPI's or AFC's . Even if conductors could unit hop , there will be people traveling short distances who are unable to purchase a ticket because the conductor is in the other portion of the train .

You may well reduce delays because of conductors not getting back to door panels on time. But I do not think that overall delays will be reduced . A well timed whistle can speed up those taking their time boarding and make people use alternative doors for boarding at busy locations .A well timed whistle also stops people holding the door for their mates , and can get passengers waiting for a following service safely back behind the line whilst the trains pulls off .I think dwell times especially during peak periods will increase .So overall I do not think that there will be an effect on the cost of delays to northern .

The next TOC will have to increase staffing as they'll be more services to run and not just services which will transfer from TPE.

Granted this was something I had failed to take into account .
However I still think that staff numbers vs a proportion of services will have to increase with less reliable rest day cover for conductors . and increases required in the dispatch grade including spare dispatchers . Currently there are locations that guards can self dispatch from with no dispatcher . However there is no guarantee the DCO risk assessment will allow this meaning extra costs on guaranteeing a dispatcher is available form first to last train . I think one way the future franchise could look to make up these costs is in cuts to ticket office staff either in number or quality . Providing more of those TVM's or agency staff in lieu of proper ticket offices . How that would pan out from a customer experience point of view would be interesting as I often hear people complaining about

It seems some conductors decide a late train is not safe to venture out full stop even if there's 30 people on board and most of them are pensioners but some conductors decide it is safe to venture out on a Saturday night when there's 150 people on board and probably a number of which have been drinking.

Indeed that is the case . However those conductors who currently sit in their rear cabs as much as possible will not change with DCO if they are not going to do the job properly they will not regardless of the changing description .

As for those that do actually try . You will have to tread carefully , that ability of conductors to make their own assessment of the situation will have to remain unless other measures are brought in which will mitigate the risks involved in revenue duties late at night when intoxicated passengers .Putting your observation aside I still do not think the TOC will be able to do much to change that and business as usual will prevail

 

[northwichcat]

Providing more of those TVM's or agency staff in lieu of proper ticket offices. How that would pan out from a customer experience point of view would be interesting as I often hear people complaining about

I wonder how many complaints of mis-selling tickets there would be given you have to be offered the cheapest ticket for your journey and not all TVMs can do that, while some of the ones that can need special notes - see the TVMs at Chester which tell Liverpool passengers after 09:30 to NOT buy a ticket to Liverpool STNs.

As ticket office staff can carry out other duties as well which TVMs can't, like taking a disabled passenger over a barrow crossing which passengers aren't permitted to use unattended, keeping the station clean and tidy or contacting BTP if a criminal offence is committed, would the RMT be happier with your alternative?

 

[455driver]

*In theory* DOO services have marginally less dwell time, as they don't need to spend precious seconds waiting for local doors to open/close, bells, etc. I think there may be other savings that come from driver operated doors as well

But as has been stated many many times before, a guard using a whistle can get the SLF* on the train faster than letting the SLF* take all the time they want, saving much more time than the few seconds it takes to open a local door, which is only there because TOCs have deliberately slowed down the guards ability to perform their duties quickly at stations over the last few years!



* Self Loading Freight, ie the passengers.
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Not quite. Transport Scotland requires Scotrail to have one on each DOO train, but the trains can still run if they don't - but it's a SQUIRE failure, and a penalty has to be paid. IIRC, it's roughly the same penalty owed for a cancellation.

And the 'penalty' could be removed at any time opening the doors to 'proper' DOO!

I was a non commercial guard for SWT and I always patrolled my train whenever possible as do most of my colleagues, Peak time trains were the only ones I didn't patrol because it wasn't physically possible to get through them, I do like the way the same people always go on about Non comms sitting in the back cab all the time whereas anyone actually doing that would find themselves invited for tea with no biscuits very quickly indeed, but hey what can we expect on here! :roll:

 

[Starmill]

Actually a lot of us go on about guards who are supposed to sell tickets, away from SWT, who sit in the back cab. I guess no tea minus biscuits there!

 

[FordFocus]

This is great news. Take note GWR and Northern Rail bidders.

Given the ORR and CPS have decided to go down the route of prosecuting staff particularly in the back drop of the 2 Merseyrail incidents in which one ASLEF member was put into prison, it's no wonder the unions want to take this stance of solidarity to stop these cuts to staff.

DCO is a term that someone in an office has made to slowly edge towards DOO. I'm not going to go into details and write paragraph upon paragraphs of why DOO and "DCO" is bad for a safe operating environment on the railway. It gets boring and repetitive seeing the same things on here every month.

I see the pro DOO fan boys are having a fit in this thread and have thrown their toys out of the pram which is a pleasure to see!

 

[northwichcat]

This is great news. Take note GWR and Northern Rail bidders.

Bids were submitted a while back for Northern Rail with the winner set to be announced in the next few days. If the winning bid has proposed DCO (which it will because it was a prerequisite of bidding) then the TOC have to run a franchise which uses DCO.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Delete pls
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This is great news. Take note GWR and Northern Rail bidders.

Given the ORR and CPS have decided to go down the route of prosecuting staff particularly in the back drop of the 2 Merseyrail incidents in which one ASLEF member was put into prison, it's no wonder the unions want to take this stance of solidarity to stop these cuts to staff.

DCO is a term that someone in an office has made to slowly edge towards DOO. I'm not going to go into details and write paragraph upon paragraphs of why DOO and "DCO" is bad for a safe operating environment on the railway. It gets boring and repetitive seeing the same things on here every month.

I see the pro DOO fan boys are having a fit in this thread and have thrown their toys out of the pram which is a pleasure to see!

^^^^This^^^^ Big Thumbs up as my sentiments exactly

 

[FordFocus]

Bids were submitted a while back for Northern Rail with the winner set to be announced in the next few days. If the winning bid has proposed DCO (which it will because it was a prerequisite of bidding) then the TOC have to run a franchise which uses DCO.

DCO would have to be agreed with both the RMT and ASLEF as it's a considerable change to terms and conditions of employment, particularly on the side of drivers.

Which we now know is very unlikely to happen.. see Post #1 on this topic.

 

[LowLevel]

Bids were submitted a while back for Northern Rail with the winner set to be announced in the next few days. If the winning bid has proposed DCO (which it will because it was a prerequisite of bidding) then the TOC have to run a franchise which uses DCO.

In which case it is unfortunate but likely that they and their passengers, rather than enjoying the bright future that changes on the railway could make, will instead be subject to sustained rounds of industrial action to little or no purpose.

No different to the new 'Super Express Trains' is it - 'look valued staff members, this is a great new era to embrace - and to ensure your full engagement and embracing of change, we'll be taking this opportunity to downgrade you or make you redundant where possible'.

Compare to East Coast where the staff appear to be genuinely excited and interested in their future rather than afraid of it.

There seems to be little actual convincing need for the changes to happen, from where I'm sitting anyway.

 

[northwichcat]

DCO would have to be agreed with both the RMT and ASLEF as it's a considerable change to terms and conditions of employment, particularly on the side of drivers.

But of course any new employees (including crew members who transfer from other operators) could have it written in to their contracts from the outset. If they don't agree then they'll forfeit the job offer.

While I accept the RMT might ballot on industrial action I don't see how a conductor can act as an AFC now but not as a conductor on a DCO service - that person will be doing the same role.

It'd be interesting to see how the unions react if and when the TOC offers incentives for going over to DCO. Will the unions really want to reject pay rises, more holidays etc. if they have to accept DCO to get them?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

A good guard takes considerably more money than his wages in a week, Is very good at customer service, is knowledgable about the routes he works and he keeps the passenger safe in an emergency or similar. We are multi-taskers and proud of our jobs and the service we provide. Lets see what quality staff you get when doo or dco comes in. Sure it will save money but the only people to see any benefit will be your local MP and his fatcat mates. I am sure Osborne could use a few more quid in his Knutsford Constituency.

 

[Skutter]

Who said they did believe that? I certainly didn't. DOO is something only pushed for by the accountants. On all levels (from TOC to DfT) there are people with very strong opposition to DOO on safety grounds. As I say, statistics prove that DOO is not as safe a method as staff dispatch (platform or guard). So it's certainly not just unions opposed to DOO. But sadly what the accountants say tends to be what happens, or at least what is aimed for.

Can you give us a link to those statistics? There are a lot of opinions on both sides, but it seems as an outsider that the best argument would have some facts behind it.

 

[A-driver]

Can you give us a link to those statistics? There are a lot of opinions on both sides, but it seems as an outsider that the best argument would have some facts behind it.

Can you provide links to any statistics proving otherwise?

I'm a DOO driver. On my relatively small network a DOO incident where a driver makes an error such as stopping short or releasing wrong side happens at leat once a month, often more frequent. I know for a fact that this isn't the case on a guard controlled network. Ask around, it's the truth.

 

[northwichcat]

A good guard takes considerably more money than his wages in a week, Is very good at customer service, is knowledgable about the routes he works and he keeps the passenger safe in an emergency or similar. We are multi-taskers and proud of our jobs and the service we provide.

That's why there should be properly trained staff acting as the second member of staff. If the rear passenger door doesn't close I don't want to see the driver have to walk all the way to the back to sort it out. However, one person can't do everything and the unions are reacting prematurely again. If the winning bid suggests sacking guards and employing the STM people to do just ticket selling/checks and assistant disabled passengers I'd expect an immediate response from the unions and a likely vote in favour of industrial action. However, all we know at the moment is on certain services (determined by the bidder) the driver will be responsible for opening and closing the doors but there will still be at least 2 members of staff on all services.

 

[Robertj21a]

Compare to East Coast where the staff appear to be genuinely excited and interested in their future rather than afraid of it.

.

Surely, this is operated by Stagecoach ? - weren't we all told to believe that Brian Souter was an absolutely terrible person and caused lots of problems for people ?

 

[455driver]

Bids were submitted a while back for Northern Rail with the winner set to be announced in the next few days. If the winning bid has proposed DCO (which it will because it was a prerequisite of bidding) then the TOC have to run a franchise which uses DCO.

Really?
How is that going to work with ASLEF categorically stating that their members will not be accepting anymore DOO/DCO/woteveritscalledthisweek?

I am all for improvements but nobody has actually come up with how DOO/DCO is an improvement over guard operation, the 'its quicker' is just rhetoric without any basis in the real world!
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Can you give us a link to those statistics? There are a lot of opinions on both sides, but it seems as an outsider that the best argument would have some facts behind it.

The percentage of SPAD notices where a DOO train has got it wrong after passing the single yellow just before the station leads me to conclude that DOO drivers are much more likely to forget what the signal was displaying simply because they are having to go from driver mode to guard mode and back to driver mode and are suffering from information/work overload!

DOO is safe, but guard operation is safer!
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In which case it is unfortunate but likely that they and their passengers, rather than enjoying the bright future that changes on the railway could make, will instead be subject to sustained rounds of industrial action to little or no purpose.

No different to the new 'Super Express Trains' is it - 'look valued staff members, this is a great new era to embrace - and to ensure your full engagement and embracing of change, we'll be taking this opportunity to downgrade you or make you redundant where possible'.

Compare to East Coast where the staff appear to be genuinely excited and interested in their future rather than afraid of it.

There seems to be little actual convincing need for the changes to happen, from where I'm sitting anyway.

But if this does get in at GWR then EC would be next on the list, they might be happy now but they are keeping a wary eye on the South West!
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That's why there should be properly trained staff acting as the second member of staff. If the rear passenger door doesn't close I don't want to see the driver have to walk all the way to the back to sort it out. However, one person can't do everything and the unions are reacting prematurely again. If the winning bid suggests sacking guards and employing the STM people to do just ticket selling/checks and assistant disabled passengers I'd expect an immediate response from the unions and a likely vote in favour of industrial action. However, all we know at the moment is on certain services (determined by the bidder) the driver will be responsible for opening and closing the doors but there will still be at least 2 members of staff on all services.

What capacity will that second person be?
I mean actually be, not do you think they will be!
Nothing I have been sent has stated what training that second person will receive.

All the propaganda I have received has left me with more questions than answers, and hasn't actually answered any of my questions, just like Ben Rule wouldn't answer any questions when he did his little tour!

You can think what you like (after all it isn't your job on the line is it, so if you are wrong it doesnt matter) but until I see the entire proposal in black and white I remain sceptical!

 

[LowLevel]

Surely, this is operated by Stagecoach ? - weren't we all told to believe that Brian Souter was an absolutely terrible person and caused lots of problems for people ?

They definitely engage in gunboat industrial relations when it comes to things like paytalks but there's far worse organisations to work for.

 

[455driver]

Surely, this is operated by Stagecoach ? - weren't we all told to believe that Brian Souter was an absolutely terrible person and caused lots of problems for people ?

He has run SWT very well (okay he isn't actually running it but you know what I mean ), and he hasn't done a bad job within the restrictions on EMT either!

He might be a cut throat businessman but he knows the value of his staff and their moral.

 

[WCMLaddict]

But of course any new employees (including crew members who transfer from other operators) could have it written in to their contracts from the outset. If they don't agree then they'll forfeit the job offer.

As far as I know it doesn't work like that. The company would have to seek agreement from the recognised union representing the grade affected to be able to offer different conditions to anyone from that grade.
Everyone from same grade has the same contract, any regional variations are agreed by union.

 

[G136GREYHOUND]

Delete pls
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^^^^This^^^^ Big Thumbs up as my sentiments exactly

I find it most amusing, strange how the vast majority stance of experienced drivers, guards and platform staff are totally against DOO and any extension

Whilst the people on here who are so pro DOO seem to have never actually done a days railway employment in their lives.

I would challenge on of the non railway DOO fanatics on here to actually put themselves in the position of a DOO driver and write a sensible thesis on why it is A) a good thing and B) A bad thing

 

[SPADTrap]

I find it most amusing, strange how the vast majority stance of experienced drivers, guards and platform staff are totally against DOO and any extension

Whilst the people on here who are so pro DOO seem to have never actually done a days railway employment in their lives.

I would challenge on of the non railway DOO fanatics on here to actually put themselves in the position of a DOO driver and write a sensible thesis on why it is A) a good thing and B) A bad thing

Dont be silly. Being experts in what everyone else does (but in reality knowing little) is a British right, it's what we do. On a depressing scale. Anyone who does the job and has what would be treated everywhere else as valuable experience is actually generally viewed as bias and suspicious 'well you would say that'.. if that makes sense. In my opinion anyway :razz:

 

[XC90]

I am being serious. The original quote says



Has their statement been proven?

If it has - then they could have said so.

If it hasn't - then the statement is moot at best.

If they don't want DOO extended in any form then simply say so - but don't represent that the reason for their position is to do with safety if there are no data to support their argument.

What they should have said is "we think".
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Dont be silly. Being experts in what everyone else does (but in reality knowing little) is a British right, it's what we do. On a depressing scale. Anyone who does the job and has what would be treated everywhere else as valuable experience is actually generally viewed as bias and suspicious 'well you would say that'.. if that makes sense. In my opinion anyway :razz:

DOO trains have worked perfectly well on the biggest network outside London for decades.

The Strathclyde network is as safe as any guard operated route and the driver doesn't even need to stick his/her head in to the Scottish weather any more.