Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[northwichcat]

I'm not sure if this a reference to D-Trains being used on the Sudbury Branch Line as the article is very poorly written.

Mr Bird said one of the bidders, Viva Rail Trains, ability to have their stock fulled track side, rather than having to be fuelled in Norwich, would be a major advantage, allowing for savings which could be used to pay for improvements to the line.

http://www.suffolkfreepress.co.uk/n...ms-for-marks-tey-lift-1-7117852#ixzz3uTvDfvW4

 

[gimmea50anyday]

This video of a single car has recently been posted.

https://vimeo.com/149738978

 

[southern442]

This video of a single car has recently been posted.

https://vimeo.com/149738978

That light cluster looks a bit wierd on the D stock. Personally I would have liked to have seen the 321 light clusters

 

[306024]

I'm not sure if this a reference to D-Trains being used on the Sudbury Branch Line as the article is very poorly written.

http://www.suffolkfreepress.co.uk/n...ms-for-marks-tey-lift-1-7117852#ixzz3uTvDfvW4

Link doesn't work for me but anything with doors in the middle of the coach causes platform gauging issues on the tight curve at Marks Tey. Mind the gap. The current 153s and 156s don't have that problem.

From the clues in the link name it looks like Marks Tey wants a lift as Manningtree is getting one.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Crikey, that takes off like the proverbial off a well-polished excavation device, does it not?

It doesn't have to be centre-doored, they can plate off the two middle doors making it effectively end-doored.

 

[asylumxl]

This video of a single car has recently been posted.

https://vimeo.com/149738978

Pretty quick off the mark.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Crikey, that takes off like the proverbial off a well-polished excavation device, does it not?

It doesn't have to be centre-doored, they can plate off the two middle doors making it effectively end-doored.

Aye, that it does...

I'll take seven of them please

 

[Camden]

Yes, it takes off like a District Line train...

It's a shame that there is so much wind noise as what would also be an interesting observation is the lack of diesel engine noise. Given you can hear the DC motors well enough on that recording, I'm going to take a punt "barely perceptible over its regular noises".

If places that have had people arguing against these end up with 14x, 153 or 156 instead, more fool them.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

If places that have had people arguing against these end up with 14x, 153 or 156 instead, more fool them.

Where do you see Angel Trains placing any of their Class 142 until their stated demise? I speak as the most vociferous opponent of these Class 230 units who resides in the area of the Northern Rail current franchise that still has these Class 142 units....or were you making reference to the Porterbook Class 143/144 units, in that part of your posting shown above.

 

[Camden]

Where do you see Angel Trains placing any of their Class 142 until their stated demise? I speak as the most vociferous opponent of these Class 230 units who resides in the area of the Northern Rail current franchise that still has these Class 142 units....or were you making reference to the Porterbook Class 143/144 units, in that part of your posting shown above.

Well, since I assume that this route isn't going to be in line for the new 125mph vehicles spoken about, it would be rather a shame if for instance Ormskirk to Preston's new hourly shuttle service were to be operated by cascaded 144, 153 or 156 replacing its current 142, rather than a nice, smooth riding, fast and efficient D Stock train.

Asking for suggestions where Angel Trains places its Class 142s...

 

[northwichcat]

Yes, it takes off like a District Line train...

It's a shame that there is so much wind noise as what would also be an interesting observation is the lack of diesel engine noise. Given you can hear the DC motors well enough on that recording, I'm going to take a punt "barely perceptible over its regular noises".

If places that have had people arguing against these end up with 14x, 153 or 156 instead, more fool them.

Yes it would be really sensible for Manchester and Leeds to have less local services because trains with a top speed of 60mph are being used. :roll: When can we expect SWT to start using them, surely they must be foolish if they don't want to replace 158s and 159s with 230s?

 

[Camden]

Yes it would be really sensible for Manchester and Leeds to have less local services because trains with a top speed of 60mph are being used. :roll: When can we expect SWT to start using them, surely they must be foolish if they don't want to replace 158s and 159s with 230s?

Last time I checked, Ormskirk and Preston aren't in Manchester or Leeds, and using them to improve services here wouldn't have any peripheral effect.

Also, it is pure sulky conjecture to assume that if these were used on busy commuter lines that it would reduce capacity. The superior acceleration is visbly impressive versus one of your diesel units.

Incidentally, these trains, which are apparently too good for the delicate Manchester sensibility, have been serving Londoners for decades at a far higher frequency and loading intensity. Before any whinges about "keeping them then" two words: "business case". I thought super wonderful Manchester was now leader of the universe on that sort of thing?

 

[Bantamzen]

Well, since I assume that this route isn't going to be in line for the new 125mph vehicles spoken about, it would be rather a shame if for instance Ormskirk to Preston's new hourly shuttle service were to be operated by cascaded 144, 153 or 156 replacing its current 142, rather than a nice, smooth riding, fast and efficient D Stock train.

Asking for suggestions where Angel Trains places its Class 142s...

Isn't this all a moot point because it now seems highly unlikely that Arriva North are going to take any?

As for a preference between a 230 and a 144/153/156 a lot would depend on any final hypothetical seat configuration in a 230. If a 230 turned up with the same configuration as the test model, I'm not so sure people would be whooping with delight at fewer seats and more areas for standing per car. But hey, it'll save a couple of minutes off the journey time (assuming there are no sections of line rated over 60mph of course).

I still think the D-stock project was a chance that VivaRail took in the hope that the DfT would allow most / all of them to be sent North to replace the pacers. That gamble hasn't paid off it seems, so now they need a whole new charm offensive to be able to sell enough 230s to turn a profit, difficult given their low top speed, rising costs (especially if you don't want the basic build), none compatibility with other stock and a limit number of builds available. They may find a home for a few years somewhere, but I personally doubt they'll be seen in big numbers shipping the masses of commuters around.

To paraphrase a song, Nice ride shame about the specs....

 

[Camden]

I don't know about ANW, it would be a shame if they are ruled out I think, because I can only assume it may mean inferior trains for some lines. I can think of a few lines where these would be ideal (such as the one mentioned).

The seating configuration is completely changeable, according to their website, to purpose.

I don't know what Vivarail's assumptions were on where they could be placed, or if they had any. There has been a lot of general PR noise coming out of one place in the north west over the past few years, and I think it is easy to make assumptions on the basis of that. Vivarail may have had somewhere completely different in mind, but immediately in terms of public volume anything to do with improving rail is perceived to be about "the north" (otherwise known as Manchester).

Britain is facing a ticking clock on its ageing diesel rolling stock, only has so much of it, and only has so much expertise to electrify railway lines and procure replacement electric trains. It is possibly this what Vivarail have had their eye on, rather than any specific use.

The orders for new transpennine stock may indirectly put a spoke in things, with more trains there being available to cascade down, but my thinking is that the issue of train availability is set to continue, that there will be more and more demand for them, and so any measures which can provide some relief will come in handy, somewhere.

 

[A0]

When can we expect SWT to start using them, surely they must be foolish if they don't want to replace 158s and 159s with 230s?

Which is a pretty daft statement, given what SWT use their 158 & 159s for.

They aren't used on short-haul, stop/start services as a rule - most of their mileage is on the Waterloo - Exeter run which is distinctly outer-suburban in nature and if electrified would easily justify 2+2 seated Desiros or similar.

Whereas the 230s look like a half-decent solution to replacing Pacers on various services.

 

[capital12]

Looks like a toy train set the way it took off! Well it looks like a toy in most ways really. Personally I hope none of the things see service, I'd sooner ride on a Pacer.

 

[northwichcat]

Last time I checked, Ormskirk and Preston aren't in Manchester or Leeds, and using them to improve services here wouldn't have any peripheral effect.

I was replying to an earlier post. I didn't see your reference to Ormskirk to Preston until after I posted. I'm not sure what you're getting by referring to that line, the current service is hourly so how would hourly be an improved service? Are you aware that the service has to go on to a fast running section of the WCML before it gets to Preston? Will there be paths available for an improved service if the 'new' train can only reach 60mph?

Also, it is pure sulky conjecture to assume that if these were used on busy commuter lines that it would reduce capacity. The superior acceleration is visbly impressive versus one of your diesel units.

So you've seen a video released by Vivarail (who are trying to sell the units) which shows a D-Train on it's own with no caption of speed or acceleration and you're certain they're better? You must have a super computer in your head instead of a brain.

I'd like to see a D-Train run on the fast line between Stockport and Manchester (Northern have to use both the fast and slow lines) with a 158 or Voyager running 2 minutes behind and not hold up the following service.

Incidentally, these trains, which are apparently too good for the delicate Manchester sensibility, have been serving Londoners for decades at a far higher frequency and loading intensity. Before any whinges about "keeping them then" two words: "business case". I thought super wonderful Manchester was now leader of the universe on that sort of thing?

OK, let's see your 30 year plan for North of England services using D-Trains as an interim solution and your 30 year plan not using D-Trains. You mean you haven't got one and yet you're saying the business case adds up? I'm sure if you send your CV to Vivarail they'll consider you for a job then you don't need to hope they see your promotion of their product on a forum before you get a job offer.

Vivarail's business model was based on a new DMU order not being viable but with electrification slowing down and passenger growth not slowing down as fast as expected it hasn't worked and new DMUs will be ordered.

Let's face it the idea of D-Trains going to the North of England is now as likely as London Overground subleasing Pacers, so why keep bringing up the fact that they aren't going to the North and discuss the fact one will be trialled in the South West and that Anglia may be taking them on if that trial is successful?

 

[Bantamzen]

I don't know about ANW, it would be a shame if they are ruled out I think, because I can only assume it may mean inferior trains for some lines. I can think of a few lines where these would be ideal (such as the one mentioned).

At this stage this is all subjective. The 230 may look like it has better acceleration, but we know it is speed limited. And given that Arriva will be buying new DMUs, and with cascades from other TOCs possible there will be scope to refit the remaining 150/153/155/156s that are left to bring them up to a better standard.

The seating configuration is completely changeable, according to their website, to purpose.

And all of which brings the price up closer to buying new vehicles, which of course will have a far longer shelf life than the 230s.

I don't know what Vivarail's assumptions were on where they could be placed, or if they had any. There has been a lot of general PR noise coming out of one place in the north west over the past few years, and I think it is easy to make assumptions on the basis of that. Vivarail may have had somewhere completely different in mind, but immediately in terms of public volume anything to do with improving rail is perceived to be about "the north" (otherwise known as Manchester).

In the D-stock's early days, it was fairly obvious even to the causal observer that VivaRail were aiming at the Northern franchise. From the mock-ups of the prototypes displaying places like Huddersfield on the boards, to constant talk of Pacer replacement, and even estimated timings published for the Penistone Line, this was the market that they were clearly aiming for. Indeed much of the early discussion here was on which Northern routes they would run.

Britain is facing a ticking clock on its ageing diesel rolling stock, only has so much of it, and only has so much expertise to electrify railway lines and procure replacement electric trains. It is possibly this what Vivarail have had their eye on, rather than any specific use.

The orders for new transpennine stock may indirectly put a spoke in things, with more trains there being available to cascade down, but my thinking is that the issue of train availability is set to continue, that there will be more and more demand for them, and so any measures which can provide some relief will come in handy, somewhere.

It is true that a DMU shortage was always a possibility. But with TP potentially looking at bi-modes, Arriva looking to procure new DMU stock, and future cascades from other TOCs as they either procure new DMUs or some routes go under the sparks, this shortage problem is going to be far less of an issue. And frankly the 230s were only ever a sticking plaster solution, to fill the gaps until brand new stock was eventually ordered. Now that both TP and ATN are looking to do just that, the 230s potential as been reduced massively. As I said earlier they took a gamble, and it's now probably not going to pay off.

 

[northwichcat]

Which is a pretty daft statement, given what SWT use their 158 & 159s for.

They aren't used on short-haul, stop/start services as a rule - most of their mileage is on the Waterloo - Exeter run which is distinctly outer-suburban in nature and if electrified would easily justify 2+2 seated Desiros or similar.

Whereas the 230s look like a half-decent solution to replacing Pacers on various services.

If people constantly posting 'D-Trains can replace Pacers' actually knew what kind of services Northern used them on instead of wrongly assuming they'll all used on low use branch lines with a low top speed, they'd realise saying Northern should take on D-Trains is as sensible as saying SWT should take them on. Romsey to Salisbury is a more sensible route for D-Trains than most Northern routes. You could argue it's no viable as SWT don't have a large number of routes close together where a D-Train is suitable but the same argument is true for Northern, a small fleet in Lancashire and a small fleet in Yorkshire wouldn't be any more viable.

 

[73001]

I was replying to an earlier post. I didn't see your reference to Ormskirk to Preston until after I posted. I'm not sure what you're getting by referring to that line, the current service is hourly so how would hourly be an improved service? Are you aware that the service has to go on to a fast running section of the WCML before it gets to Preston? Will there be paths available for an improved service if the 'new' train can only reach 60mph?

The current service hasn't been hourly for many years; it's a commitment in the new franchise to make it hourly again as at the moment it's pretty hopeless at anything from approximately an hour and 10 mins to an hour and a half between services. I was pretty sceptical when the 230s were first mooted as an idea, then excited but actually now the only real option is to get investment in new diesels and bimodes and cascade refurbished sprinters to lines like this. It would appear that this is what will happen up here in my neck of the woods anyway and as others have said, it is the sensible idea really.

 

[Domh245]

Having done a bit of 'fag-packet' maths based on the time it took for the train to accelerate past the other DM car, I've calculated that the acceleration was somewhere between 1.5 and 2 m/s^2 (mainly down to choosing when the train was level with the other car, and had travelled 18m) with the assumption that the acceleration was constant.

Obviously, the actual trains will be slightly more sluggish of the mark if hauling a trailer car around, and the acceleration won't be constant throughout the entire speed range, but *if* we do make the assumptions that the train will have a constant acceleration of 1.5m/s^2 throughout it's speed range, it would take about 20 seconds to hit 60mph and do it in about 250m, and from then on being doing 60mph until it's next stop. Until the the other train hit 60mph, the D-Train would still be pulling away from it, and only after that would the other train start to close down the gap.

 

[asylumxl]

So you've seen a video released by Vivarail (who are trying to sell the units) which shows a D-Train on it's own with no caption of speed or acceleration and you're certain they're better? You must have a super computer in your head instead of a brain.

Considering the average human brain is estimated to manage about 1 exaflops, while the most powerful supercomputer at the moment only manages around 50 petaflops, that's a really strange comment.

 

[northwichcat]

Considering the average human brain is estimated to manage about 1 exaflops, while the most powerful supercomputer at the moment only manages around 50 petaflops, this is the strangest and most random comment ever on Rail Forums.

Corrected that for you.

I take it you when you do calculations you never need to use a calculator or even write down your working and you also never make human error as your brain is so much better.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Having done a bit of 'fag-packet' maths based on the time it took for the train to accelerate past the other DM car, I've calculated that the acceleration was somewhere between 1.5 and 2 m/s^2 (mainly down to choosing when the train was level with the other car, and had travelled 18m) with the assumption that the acceleration was constant.

It's worth noting the S Stock accelerates at up to 1.3m/s^2 and it's claimed the S Stock is the fastest accelerating stock which has ever been used on the London Underground.

 

[47802]

Last time I checked, Ormskirk and Preston aren't in Manchester or Leeds, and using them to improve services here wouldn't have any peripheral effect.

Also, it is pure sulky conjecture to assume that if these were used on busy commuter lines that it would reduce capacity. The superior acceleration is visbly impressive versus one of your diesel units.

Incidentally, these trains, which are apparently too good for the delicate Manchester sensibility, have been serving Londoners for decades at a far higher frequency and loading intensity. Before any whinges about "keeping them then" two words: "business case". I thought super wonderful Manchester was now leader of the universe on that sort of thing?

Anyone who travels on Northern knows that they currently have a fleet with a few exceptions that is a go anywhere fleet that is compatible. The down side at the moment is that quality is variable so you may get a 158 on one train while the next is a 142. New Northern connect trains and elimination of Pacers should go a along way to fix the quality issue while retaining a largely go anywhere compatible fleet.

You on the other hand want introduce a train which will have a slower top speed and no compatibility with other Northern Stock which will need to be carefully diagrammed on selected routes and add to the replacement burden in the next 10 to 15 years when a large number of 1st gen sprinters will need to be replaced.

Even with the improvements the north is getting it will still have a large fleet of 30+ year old trains during the franchise

 

[asylumxl]

Corrected that for you.

I take it you when you do calculations you never need to use a calculator or even write down your working and you also never make human error as your brain is so much better.

Actually I'm quite good at mental arithmetic and rarely use a calculator. The simple fact is that the human brain is a whole magnitude more powerful than the world's most powerful computer. If your brain was dedicated only to arithmetic as the computers are, it'd outperform pretty much anything. But that's another topic for another day.

I really don't think these trains are as bad as people are making out. I wouldn't mind them on the Marston Vale, particularly if they could increase frequency or allow a Sunday service.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

Actually I'm quite good at mental arithmetic and rarely use a calculator. The simple fact is that the human brain is a whole magnitude more powerful than the world's most powerful computer. If your brain was dedicated only to arithmetic as the computers are, it'd outperform pretty much anything. But that's another topic for another day.

I really don't think these trains are as bad as people are making out. I wouldn't mind them on the Marston Vale, particularly if they could increase frequency or allow a Sunday service.

Agreed, think the best potential use of D-trains is to free up 'faster' 15x's from self contained rural branch lines, to provide increased frequencies or improved reliability, the 15x's can then be used t strengthen other services.

Potential routes that I can think of where D-trains could be suitable and future franchises that could take them on could include Great Western which I think is trailing one on one of the Cornish branches. If that trial is successfull they could be deployed on the other branches. Is Greater Anglia is trailing one on Marks Tay to Sudbury, but could they also be used used on the lines out of Norwich to Cromer/Sheringham, Great Yarmouth and Lowestoft? The Wales and borders franchise could use D-trains as pacer replacement if the electrification of the valley lines is significantly delayed, a couple of units could also be used in North Wales on the Conway valley line.

Any other ideas/suggestions?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Actually I'm quite good at mental arithmetic and rarely use a calculator. The simple fact is that the human brain is a whole magnitude more powerful than the world's most powerful computer. If your brain was dedicated only to arithmetic as the computers are, it'd outperform pretty much anything. But that's another topic for another day.

I really don't think these trains are as bad as people are making out. I wouldn't mind them on the Marston Vale, particularly if they could increase frequency or allow a Sunday service.

Or a spare unit. Reliability is terrible without one.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I find it incredible how sure everyone is about this train and the first one isn't even complete yet.

I think it is obvious they will not be used on Northern due to the political issues. Hasn't the FGW extension got trialling them in Cornwall as a key output?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Asking for suggestions where Angel Trains places its Class 142s...

It currently being the pantomime season, the one called Aladdin immediately sprang to mind (New Lamps for Old) and Vivarail could take all the remaining Class 142 fleet in 2019 and use them as their next source material for another of their "creative rail projects"....

 

[Haydn1971]

Which is a pretty daft statement, given what SWT use their 158 & 159s for

To be fair, that statement was to counter a suggestion by Camden that the 230's could replace 153/156's as well as the Pacers - clearly 230's could be great for short branches, but not for routes that the 156's operate - such as Leeds-Halifax-Manchester etc
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

It currently being the pantomime season, the one called Aladdin immediately sprang to mind (New Lamps for Old) and Vivarail could take all the remaining Class 142 fleet in 2019 and use them as their next source material for another of their "creative rail projects"....

Paul, please don't ever change, your posts always put a smile on my face
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I do however see some potential for the 230 fleet in making new self contained routes viable for meeting aspirations of the City Regions - something like a Stocksbridge - Sheffield Victoria - Meadowhall - Rotherham route with intermediate stops, a North of York metro style service, Barnsley to Mexborough, Doncaster to Robin Hood etc - all routes that have been talked about in City Region bids but never quite make the business case.