Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Haydn1971]

What is a "real train"? I'd say D stock are real trains personally, metro trains.

Clearly, I would not

 

[lincolnshire]

I don't see how adding diesel engines is going to extend the units' economic lifespan. The original Brush-built DC motors are to be retained.

Just look at how long 08 (350hp ) shunters have been on the go with there traction motors.

Also how long as Volks railway on the sea front at Brighton been on the go with its traction motors

So why should these units give a good few years service then with there traction motors, easy enough to repair or rewind when required, as they having been doing just that for years now.

Lets all wait and see what happens when they get out and about and are tested out on the proper railway and not just in sidings etc and what happens when they run at there maximum speed before passing judgement on them.

 

[Emblematic]

Clearly, I would not

Go on, I'll bite then! What's your definition of a Real Train?
And if not D trains, do unconverted D78s meet the standard? Pacers?

Just curious

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Does anyone think that the original hopes of Vivarail for a solitary TOC to take on the Class 230 to cover as an interim measure in order to help to recoup costs has gradually been lessening as a result of statements made in franchise documentation in 2015.

A matter that I ask clarification upon on this thread is one to ask if all the required testing now been successfully made.

Is there a known timescale for Vivarail to now completely carry out all the required upgrades to all the D78 stock they have purchased. that will emerge as Class 230 units?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I am making the possibly false assumption that one full unit will be built, but the others only to order.

 

[Murph]

I don't see how adding diesel engines is going to extend the units' economic lifespan. The original Brush-built DC motors are to be retained.

Just look at how long 08 (350hp ) shunters have been on the go with there traction motors.

Also how long as Volks railway on the sea front at Brighton been on the go with its traction motors

So why should these units give a good few years service then with there traction motors, easy enough to repair or rewind when required, as they having been doing just that for years now.

Exactly. While I don't know the specific condition of the D78 traction motors, a heavily built traction motor of good design and quality has near infinite life if you look after it and are prepared to do the heavy refurbs and rebuilds on it. If all the heavy parts are good, new bearings and a rewind more or less resets the clock back to close to original factory condition.

Historically, LUL's traction motors have been high spec, i.e. can just about go on forever, to ensure reliability in their highly demanding environment. Unless you (or anyone) knows of any specific issues which would shorten the life of the D78 motors, it's a pretty good assumption that they probably have considerable life left in them via heavy rebuild. Brush traction motors have a fairly good reputation, in general, I believe. Spares shouldn't be a problem, if Vivarail have any sense, as the UNDMs are being scrapped, leaving almost 2:1 motors available for any that have sustained damage.

 

[southern442]

I don't see how adding diesel engines is going to extend the units' economic lifespan. The original Brush-built DC motors are to be retained.

The mid-00s D Stock refurbishment was based on the expectation that the fleet would be retained in service for a further 20 years, but with the Metronet contracts having been signed for what has turned out to be the S Stock and SSL resignalling, the cost efficiencies that emerged were too significant to ignore.

Apologies for the incorrect term usage there, and I do understand the electric motors will be retained, but I'm sure you do get my point that replacing a motor or engine can extend a unit's lifespan by quite an amount. And indeed a lot of the time the motors and engines will serve a unit well over time, such as the above example of the VER (although they haven't exactly been put to such rigorous usage as the D-stock has) so it shows that really most things that can shorten a unit's life can be replaced.

 

[THC]

I am making the possibly false assumption that one full unit will be built, but the others only to order.

Commercial reality dictates that you'll be proven right. At best, as things stand, I can see a small number ordered for Cornish branches and possibly AGA Suffolk and Norfolk branches too but, beyond that, it is difficult to see where a substantial UK order for Class 230s would materialise from - unless the timetable for electrifying the Valley Lines is pushed back further still.

On the other hand, Class 230s would be ideal stock for use on freight lines mooted for reopening but where the business case currently precludes the acquisition of "new" trains. Such routes include March-Wisbech, Mansfield-Tuxford, Totton-Fawley and Gobowen-Oswestry and, of course, there may be others. While local authorities are, thanks to many years of compound funding cuts, not generally in a position any more to fund the development of such services, Local Enterprise Partnerships are well-placed to do just that and I'm sure that Mr Shooter knows this.

Given that the 'D' train is being built for light servicing away from depots, such opportunities could prove fruitful for Vivarail and may even, with some imaginative local thinking and a bit of luck, catalyse a renaissance in English railway openings.

THC

 

[Haydn1971]

While local authorities are, thanks to many years of compound funding cuts, not generally in a position any more to fund the development of such services, Local Enterprise Partnerships are well-placed to do just that and I'm sure that Mr Shooter knows this.



Given that the 'D' train is being built for light servicing away from depots, such opportunities could prove fruitful for Vivarail and may even, with some imaginative local thinking and a bit of luck, catalyse a renaissance in English railway openings.

Spot on, this is further reinforced by my dealings in West and South Yorkshire via transport investment funds a few years ago - the aspiration is there, the business case is however weak without these sort of solutions.

 

[colchesterken]

Anyone know if any performance data is in the public domain yet
I want to know how it will stand up to the competition, eg pacers,150s, 156s
on power hills etc.

 

[southern442]

Spot on, this is further reinforced by my dealings in West and South Yorkshire via transport investment funds a few years ago - the aspiration is there, the business case is however weak without these sort of solutions.

So one of the possible aims is a railbus-like scenario with the trains being brought in to reopen (and economically keep open) small branch lines? It could fit in nicely with this 'northern powerhouse' thing that the government want to see happen.

 

[coppercapped]

I agree with you here. I was quite surprised at the almost panning of the idea of D trains up north. Yes, 'the north' is deprived of good quality rolling stock, but most people will only be satisfied with brand new trains. The D stock are perfectly solid machines, already a step up from pacers, and the only reason why they were replaced from LU was because they are old and were beginning to become outdated.

'Outdated' is sort of right. What is actually happening is that TfL is, after several false starts, resignalling all the Sub-Surface Lines with a new signalling system so that the number of trains per hour can be increased in spite of all the flat junctions around the Circle Line and in other places.

For this to work all the trains have to have the same acceleration and braking characteristics - which means that the 'D' trains on the District Line will have to be prematurely replaced by 'S' stock.

If the re-signalling to increase capacity was not happening the D78 stock would have run to the end of its natural life on the District.

However, with a very good refurbishment, such as the 455 refurbishment where they almost looked brand new in the public's eyes, there is no reason why they cannot be operated on branch lines and other like routes. They are much nicer, smoother and more reliable than pacers, and given a chance will prove to be a viable solution for at least 20 years.

Quite!

 

[northwichcat]

A post from Tony Miles on wnxx seems to suggests there's currently no interest in the D-Train and even GWR aren't keen on still going ahead with a trial. He predicts Anglia will be getting new DMUs (as well as Northern) and that EMT won't require them as other DMUs will be available for cascade (presumably as a result of TPE releasing some 185s), leaving the possibility of being used by the Welsh franchise as the only real option and he says even they may reject them for political reasons.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

So one of the possible aims is a railbus-like scenario with the trains being brought in to reopen (and economically keep open) small branch lines? It could fit in nicely with this 'northern powerhouse' thing that the government want to see happen.

Which self-contained "small branch lines" in the area of the Northern Powerhouse do you feel to be suitable contenders? Is the procedure for a line reopening not a long drawn-out affair as recent line reopening proposals have proved and whose will be the decision to re-open them? Can you see the new "Northern" franchisee taking on these Class 230 units in small order batches from Vivarail or will this idea not be on the same lines that they are thinking.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Which self-contained "small branch lines" in the area of the Northern Powerhouse do you feel to be suitable contenders? Can you see the new "Northern" franchisee taking on these Class 230 units in small order batches from Vivarail or will this idea not be on the same lines that they are thinking.

What about the Saltburn line?

 

[Haydn1971]

So one of the possible aims is a railbus-like scenario with the trains being brought in to reopen (and economically keep open) small branch lines? It could fit in nicely with this 'northern powerhouse' thing that the government want to see happen.

Well Northern Powerhouse is a Osborne twist on the Northern Way that kinda grew into the City Regions - The Northern Connect, TPE 125mph trains and IEP are central to the ongoing improvement to core transportation links between major northern cities, HS2 takes this further. Transport within city regions is the next piece in the jigsaw puzzle, so stuff like Manchester Metrolink expansion, tram-train, and bus rapid transit all help improve local travel, the 230's could still play a part if funded via the city region transport investment fund - just because it's not in the franchise in April 2016, doesn't rule out later addition if the solution works for the local authorities - who of course now have a degree of management via Rail North.

 

[Mikey C]

A post from Tony Miles on wnxx seems to suggests there's currently no interest in the D-Train and even GWR aren't keen on still ahead with a trial. He predicts Anglia will be getting new DMUs (as well as Northern) and that EMT won't require them as other DMUs will be available for cascade (presumably as a result of TPE releasing some 185s), leaving the possibility of being used by the Welsh franchise as the only real option and he says even they may reject them for political reasons.

The big variable at the moment, is the complete lack of available DMUs. Until a manufacturer actually agrees to design and build a compliant and affordable DMU for branch lines, we won't know how the alternatives to the Class 230 will truly compare

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The big variable at the moment, is the complete lack of available DMUs. Until a manufacturer actually agrees to design and build a compliant and affordable DMU for branch lines, we won't know how the alternatives to the Class 230 will truly compare

With regards to the Class 230, there doesn't seem all that much there to compare with anything at the current moment in time. I couldn't understand much of the earlier reasoning for them on this thread, when certain people blithely made comments such as "an immediate stock replacement" when nothing of the sort actually existed, except in their minds.

 

[THC]

Spot on, this is further reinforced by my dealings in West and South Yorkshire via transport investment funds a few years ago - the aspiration is there, the business case is however weak without these sort of solutions.

If what jcollins says above is true, and Mr Miles is of course well-informed, then Mr Shooter will need to be even more imaginative in securing outlets for the 'D' Train. If outright sales cannot be found then levering in further finance from his current backers, for example, would allow him to position Vivarail as a niche ROSCO for spot hires and the intermediate rail expansion market we discussed upthread.

If business cases are to be strengthened for such reopenings, then a favourable regulatory environment, such as that which underpinned Serpell reopenings in the 1980s, updated to include derogations from the much stricter building, environmental and access regimes now in force, will be required. Unfortunately the "not invented here" mentality that pervades the DfT and much of central government will probably count against this, but Mr Shooter is nothing if not tireless. Don't rule him or Vivarail out just yet.

THC

 

[Haydn1971]

There was a lot of work done by local bodies to get the trams back in Sheffield and Manchester in the 90's - about 15-20 years of work after urban motorway programmes failed in the early 70's, Leeds was a tad behind the game as they were half into building roads in the mid 70's, Newcastle played a trump card with getting the metro plans moving just as the oil crisis kicked in. What I'm getting at is that the pre-curser to the city regions, the metropolitans where key to getting the wild and whacky ideas of trams and light rail started, not central government... I'm sure Mr Shooter knows his history.

 

[THC]

I was involved, albeit at a junior level, in the demand forecasting for Supertram so remember well the dog days of the "mets" and the legacy PTEs and PTAs. What did for them, and therefore any local strategic planning of rail services, was the 1993 Railways Act. Only now in England, with the development of combined authorities and LEPs, is the vacuum in this tier of planning being addressed in any way. The devolved administrations in Scotland and Wales have shown the benefits of strategic planning and coordination for rail reopenings but a little more imagination may be required in England if reopenings are to become commonplace in the years ahead for all the reasons outlined previously.

THC

 

[47802]

The big variable at the moment, is the complete lack of available DMUs. Until a manufacturer actually agrees to design and build a compliant and affordable DMU for branch lines, we won't know how the alternatives to the Class 230 will truly compare

Well it would seem the solution at the moment is to justify new DMU's for the busiest routes probably using fairly proven technology in the form of CAF's version of a 172, as opposed to the unproven technology of the Viva Train.

Then the Branch Lines and Secondary routes get Refurbished Non Air Con 15x units which should be ok until the mid 2020's when clearly replacements will need to be considered.

Having appeared to not get anywhere with the Northern franchise I guess they now need to get on and prove that this train does what it say on the tin and is reliable, if they can do that then they might get some takers, on the other hand if turns out to be a bit of a V250 then Northern may have had a lucky escape.

I guess the alternative may be to can it if they think the market is a no go.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I guess the alternative may be to can it if they think the market is a no go.

Or possibly sell it abroad.

 

[The Ham]

There is always the option of setting what heritage lines may have an interest. With a regular service between Swanage and Wareham starting soon, depending on running costs the D-train could solve a load of problems (at least in already having for all the required paperwork) for such a service.

 

[martinsh]

Which self-contained "small branch lines" in the area of the Northern Powerhouse do you feel to be suitable contenders?

Darlington - Bishop Auckland
Middlesbrough - Whitby
Carlisle - Whitehaven
Blackpool South - Kirkham & Wesham
Preston - Ormskirk
Rose Grove - Colne ...

 

[47802]

Darlington - Bishop Auckland
Middlesbrough - Whitby
Carlisle - Whitehaven
Blackpool South - Kirkham & Wesham
Preston - Ormskirk
Rose Grove - Colne ...

Doesn't the Middlesbrough - Whitby line require a 156 on weekdays for the School contract? so you would need a 3 Car 230 to get equivalence capacity to a 156.

I seen some propaganda from Vivarail comparing it to a 150, I wonder how well a 3 car 230 stacks up against a 2 Car 156?

 

[MML]

Middlesborough-Whitby would benefit if the single Class 156 was replaced by 2 D-train units. More seats and an improved frequency of service which stands a good chance of increasing patronage on the line.

Hull-Bridlington services are currently at 30 minute intervals but only 1 train in 3 continues to Scarborough. The 1 and a half hour service interval to Scarborough could be improved to hourly by using the Class 156 from the Whitby line.

2 D-trains would therefore benefit both branch lines.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Middlesborough-Whitby would benefit if the single Class 156 was replaced by 2 D-train units. More seats and an improved frequency of service which stands a good chance of increasing patronage on the line.

Hull-Bridlington services are currently at 30 minute intervals but only 1 train in 3 continues to Scarborough. The 1 and a half hour service interval to Scarborough could be improved to hourly by using the Class 156 from the Whitby line.

2 D-trains would therefore benefit both branch lines.

Hull - Bridlington/Scarbrough used to be the stomping ground of the 156s for a long time - now you are lucky if you get anything apart from 158s there - although you do get the occasional pacer working up to Brid

 

[Harpers Tate]

Brid (ex Hull) - Scarborough is going hourly x 7 days in the new franchise anyway.

 

[IanXC]

I think it's looking increasingly likely that Vivarail will need to come up with some more creative schemes if they are to shift any of these units.

I think the kinds of schemes in the running are now pretty much new services, whether those be:

• On existing lines, such as the proposed stopper on the York-Malton line
• service from Preserved metals to the national network such as Swanage to Wareham
• new passenger services on currently freight only lines such as Fowey
• any number of new lines
• and not necessarily involving the national network at all, such as the Poulton and Wyre Railway

The common factor being that no currently operating service will be changed to 230 operation.

All in all Vivarail probably has more work in scheme promotion now than in rolling stock construction!