Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[jimm]

But the GW inner-suburban services, including through Ealing Broadway, are meant to be replaced by the Crossrail project, not the GWML electrification scheme. Crossrail isn't part of the GW franchise. As far as I know things are still on schedule for Crossrail trains to start entering service part way through 2017.
As they do, the Paddington inner-suburban DMUs start to become surplus. Indeed it will be quite impossible to operate them through the Crossrail tunnels!

Until December 2019 the only Crossrail services operating west of Paddington will be the replacement for Heathrow Connect, with the changeover to Crossrail operation due to be made in May 2018. And these services will operate from the mainline platforms at Paddington.

 

[MML]

GWR could consider use of the D-Train on branch line services closer to London too.
The 6 minute journey time along the Slough to Windsor route, the 12 minute journey from Twyford to Henley-on-Thames and the 23 minute journey from Maidenhead to Marlow should all be suitable routes for either 2 or 3 car units.
Class 16x DMU can then be used to strengthen mainline services until electrification allows their eventual cascade to the Bristol region.

https://youtu.be/zniyoQywqkg

 

[southern442]

Mark Hopwood has said he will run EMU services Paddington to Maidenhead as soon as it is wired.

They also intend to run 387s to Hayes/Harlington in time for the next timetable, by May 2016. The latter has been widely discussed in previous threads.

Are you telling me that GWR want to run extra services merely to show off the fact that they have electric trains now (just like the cool TOC's)?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The improved acceleration will allow additional services to provide extra capacity.

 

[anthony263]

Have a few 3 carriage class 230 units and put them on the Gospel Oak - Barking line.

 

[jimm]

Are you telling me that GWR want to run extra services merely to show off the fact that they have electric trains now (just like the cool TOC's)?

Are you telling us that you don't think extra trains - of any sort - on GWML suburban services are a good idea? The Turbos are swamped in the peaks, so any sort of assistance for them will be welcomed by passengers, and the sooner it is available the better. Nothing whatever to do with showing off, just trying to help handle current demand and likely growth over the next few years, given that Crossrail is still several years away.

 

[jopsuk]

Have a few 3 carriage class 230 units and put them on the Gospel Oak - Barking line.

By the time the 230s are fully available the wires will be finished and the 710s in service

 

[southern442]

Are you telling us that you don't think extra trains - of any sort - on GWML suburban services are a good idea? The Turbos are swamped in the peaks, so any sort of assistance for them will be welcomed by passengers, and the sooner it is available the better. Nothing whatever to do with showing off, just trying to help handle current demand and likely growth over the next few years, given that Crossrail is still several years away.

It's not that, it's just that the idea of running 387's to Hayes and Harlington seems a bit random when their diesel trains could run further along the line to somewhere like Slough (or Windsor?).

 

[swt_passenger]

It's not that, it's just that the idea of running 387's to Hayes and Harlington seems a bit random when their diesel trains could run further along the line to somewhere like Slough (or Windsor?).

It isn't random, insomuch as there is already wiring between Paddington and Hayes and Harlington. They want to use the EMUs they've been allocated as they become available, and they need to ramp up the training of all their Thames Valley drivers on EMU stock.

They are basically taking advantage of the planned EMU delivery timescales to convert the present Paddington - Greenford service into a West Ealing to Greenford shuttle a bit earlier than Crossrail requires, i.e. as soon as the new bay platform becomes available. So Paddington to West Ealing gets a 2 tph 4 or 8 car 387 replacing a 2 car Turbo, and West Ealing to Hayes gets a 4 or 8 car 387 in addition to the existing services that carry on running as before.

Bonus capacity all round...

 

[jimm]

It's not that, it's just that the idea of running 387's to Hayes and Harlington seems a bit random when their diesel trains could run further along the line to somewhere like Slough (or Windsor?).

Why is it random? There is already working 25kv overhead out to Hayes & Harlington for the Heathrow services.

Passengers using the stations between Slough and Paddington face a daily struggle to get on board diesel trains that are full and standing - with no possibility of them being lengthened because the Turbo fleet is at full stretch. Providing the emu shuttle will give passengers at some of the inner-suburban stations a good chance of a seat and at the same time ease the pressure on services to/from places further west up the line.

Crossrail's service plans include two trains per hour starting from/terminating at West Drayton, just one stop up the line from Hayes & Harlington, so the GWR trains will also provide a preview of that arrangement, albeit ending at Paddington rather than heading into the tunnel. In the same way, beefing up services out as far as Maidenhead once wires reach there will also provide a taste of things to come with Crossrail and add extra capacity before a Class 345 carries any passengers from Berkshire.

 

[starlightEXPRESS]

They are basically taking advantage of the planned EMU delivery timescales to convert the present Paddington - Greenford service into a West Ealing to Greenford shuttle a bit earlier than Crossrail requires, i.e. as soon as the new bay platform becomes available. So Paddington to West Ealing gets a 2 tph 4 or 8 car 387 replacing a 2 car Turbo, and West Ealing to Hayes gets a 4 or 8 car 387 in addition to the existing services that carry on running as before.

Does terminating the Greenford-Paddington shuttle short (so that it runs Greenford-West Ealing) release a 165? Is there any possibility of accelerating existing DMU services by dropping calls at Hanwell and/or Southall, which could be covered by the new 387 services?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Have a few 3 carriage class 230 units and put them on the Gospel Oak - Barking line.

I don't think you are taking the Vivarail marketing very seriously..

It makes them sound as if they are in for small batch orders, which I am sure was not the case when this idea was first floated.

 

[jimm]

Does terminating the Greenford-Paddington shuttle short (so that it runs Greenford-West Ealing) release a 165? Is there any possibility of accelerating existing DMU services by dropping calls at Hanwell and/or Southall, which could be covered by the new 387 services?

It might, but one two-car 165 isn't going to make that big a difference to overcrowding on the main line services, nor would using 230s on the other branches to free a couple more Turbos.

There may be some alterations to stopping patterns but there will still need to be provision for direct journeys between the likes of Slough and Southall.

In any case, the key issue in this part of London right now is not journey times, it is the desperate need to provide extra passenger capacity on GWR suburban services across the board well before Crossrail's full service starts.

 

[southern442]

Why is it random? There is already working 25kv overhead out to Hayes & Harlington for the Heathrow services.

Passengers using the stations between Slough and Paddington face a daily struggle to get on board diesel trains that are full and standing - with no possibility of them being lengthened because the Turbo fleet is at full stretch. Providing the emu shuttle will give passengers at some of the inner-suburban stations a good chance of a seat and at the same time ease the pressure on services to/from places further west up the line.

Crossrail's service plans include two trains per hour starting from/terminating at West Drayton, just one stop up the line from Hayes & Harlington, so the GWR trains will also provide a preview of that arrangement, albeit ending at Paddington rather than heading into the tunnel. In the same way, beefing up services out as far as Maidenhead once wires reach there will also provide a taste of things to come with Crossrail and add extra capacity before a Class 345 carries any passengers from Berkshire.

I suppose that does make sense. I just thought that running a service just to Hayes and Harlington seemed a little odd because it doesn't really go anywhere, but if they have been planned to run in a similar pattern to this after 2018 then fine (it just seemed like they were doing it because they could).

Also is it true that the Greenford shuttle will be TfL controlled after Crossrail comes in?

 

[swt_passenger]

Also is it true that the Greenford shuttle will be TfL controlled after Crossrail comes in?

There's no evidence for that AFAICS. It's going to be a bit of an oddball whoever ends up with it, as the only small DMU service for many miles around, (apart from Chiltern).

Would TfL really want a couple of DMUs in with their fully electrified system, once Goblin wiring is finished next year?

Then again one of TfLs '2050 proposals' was to project it up the Chilterns as far as High Wycombe, which wouldn't really look right in TfL's hands either.

 

[southern442]

There's no evidence for that AFAICS. It's going to be a bit of an oddball whoever ends up with it, as the only small DMU service for many miles around, (apart from Chiltern).

Would TfL really want a couple of DMUs in with their fully electrified system, once Goblin wiring is finished next year?

Then again one of TfLs '2050 proposals' was to project it up the Chilterns as far as High Wycombe, which wouldn't really look right in TfL's hands either.

They do have the soon to be spare 172's, or are they giving them up?

I really hope that TfL don't take over all the suburban lines, cause they will end up longitudinalising everything.

 

[swt_passenger]

They do have the soon to be spare 172's, or are they giving them up?

I really hope that TfL don't take over all the suburban lines, cause they will end up longitudinalising everything.

They won't keep the 172s as they'll have no need for them, the EMU replacements are already on the way.

 

[southern442]

They won't keep the 172s as they'll have no need for them, the EMU replacements are already on the way.

Are they going anywhere specific yet, or will they just hang around until someone wants them?

 

[TH172341]

It hasn't been specified where they're due to go yet - logic would say Chiltern or LM - both would have good needs for them as they could enable further strengthening of the Snow Hill line services. Although the one thing going against LM is the fact the LO 172s don't have gangways.

 

[Taunton]

Does terminating the Greenford-Paddington shuttle short (so that it runs Greenford-West Ealing) release a 165?

I can see this causing a considerable upset if it's done before the Crossrail trains come along, a trainload of Greenford branch passengers getting put off at West Ealing then being unable to board onward services to Broadway or Paddington which arrive as minimal 2 or 3 car sets which are rammed to the doors.

 

[swt_passenger]

I can see this causing a considerable upset if it's done before the Crossrail trains come along, a trainload of Greenford branch passengers getting put off at West Ealing then being unable to board onward services to Broadway or Paddington which arrive as minimal 2 or 3 car sets which are rammed to the doors.

But they'll be arriving as 4 or 8 car 387s that have only come from Hayes and Harlington. It would be perverse if the Greeenfords didn't connect with these trains.

 

[MidlandMainlie]

It hasn't been specified where they're due to go yet - logic would say Chiltern or LM - both would have good needs for them as they could enable further strengthening of the Snow Hill line services. Although the one thing going against LM is the fact the LO 172s don't have gangways.

Another factor is the LO 172's and the Chiltern 172's are both owned by Angel trains, but the LM units are owned by Porterbrook so Chiltern looks to be the more likely.

 

[northwichcat]

Another factor is the LO 172's and the Chiltern 172's are both owned by Angel trains, but the LM units are owned by Porterbrook so Chiltern looks to be the more likely.

True but according to the Angel website the LO 172s can inter-operate with Sprinters and Turbostars, opposed to with the 168s. So would it be worth LM getting all the 172s and releasing some Porterbrook 170s to Chiltern for conversion to 168s for fleet consistency?

 

[swt_passenger]

True but according to the Angel website the LO 172s can inter-operate with Sprinters and Turbostars, AS opposed to with the 168s.

But they'll be adaptable, its all about coupler wiring mods. Or in a similar way as 170s can be converted into 168/3s, to work with other 168s.

 

[Taunton]

But they'll be arriving as 4 or 8 car 387s that have only come from Hayes and Harlington. It would be perverse if the Greeenfords didn't connect with these trains.

The 0757 5-car Heathrow Connect from Heathrow to Paddington was already No 4 in the official list of "most overcrowded trains in Britain". Trains on this line are already stuffed, on operations which into other London termini would have 10- or 12-car sets. GW seem incapable of providing more than the minimum capacity, standing in minimal formations off-peak or (particularly) at weekends is common.

 

[47802]

The 0757 5-car Heathrow Connect from Heathrow to Paddington was already No 4 in the official list of "most overcrowded trains in Britain". Trains on this line are already stuffed, on operations which into other London termini would have 10- or 12-car sets. GW seem incapable of providing more than the minimum capacity, standing in minimal formations off-peak or (particularly) at weekends is common.

Ins't that what 9 car Crossrail trains, and a substancial fleet of 4 car 387 and 365's are meant to fix. Obviously they can only do so much with the progress of Crossrail and GW electrification, Putting 387's between Hayes and Paddington is the first step, which will get extended to Maidenhead and then onto Reading then Didcot etc as soon as electrification allows.

You cannot make diesel units out of thin air and that includes vivarail and by the time you built some the electfication schemes will have progressed.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

You cannot make diesel units out of thin air and that includes vivarail and by the time you built some the electfication schemes will have progressed.

Harry Potter could

 

[gtr driver]

The 0757 5-car Heathrow Connect from Heathrow to Paddington was already No 4 in the official list of "most overcrowded trains in Britain". Trains on this line are already stuffed, on operations which into other London termini would have 10- or 12-car sets. GW seem incapable of providing more than the minimum capacity, standing in minimal formations off-peak or (particularly) at weekends is common.

It was my understanding that the trains are short formed on GW suburban services because when the mk1 DMUs were introduced these were adequate for traffic at the time, and when replaced by Turbostars BR was severely under the cosh financially and could not justify increasing the size of the fleet, only working it harder. After that the private operators have been scuppered by franchise restrictions (remember the DfT preventing them using spare DMUs around a decade ago) or the issues causing shortages to all DMU fleets now. Heathrow Connect is run by Heathrow Express not GW anyway, but I'm sure had the line been electrified decades ago they would be just like the rest, running long EMU formations in the peaks. As hopefully they will be in a few years.

 

[southern442]

But they'll be arriving as 4 or 8 car 387s that have only come from Hayes and Harlington. It would be perverse if the Greeenfords didn't connect with these trains.

So that's where they come in! It all makes sense now

This and also the fact that trains over 5 cars in length are badly needed on GWR anyway. It seems like all the suburban trains coming out of Paddington are full and standing no matter what time of day it is.

 

[jimm]

The 0757 5-car Heathrow Connect from Heathrow to Paddington was already No 4 in the official list of "most overcrowded trains in Britain". Trains on this line are already stuffed, on operations which into other London termini would have 10- or 12-car sets. GW seem incapable of providing more than the minimum capacity, standing in minimal formations off-peak or (particularly) at weekends is common.

Could you enlighten us as to where GWR is supposed to have got more rolling stock from? Once electrification was on the way, the idea of acquiring more dmus for FGW, which was quite well advanced, went by the board. Instead, they had to bring back the five 180s they could get their hands on and acquire the two 150/0s to free up as many Turbos as they could to strengthen Thames Valley services.

I don't recognise this 'minimal formations' stuff. You might have had a point a few year ago when many peak trains at Paddington were just three-car sets but there are plenty of 2+2, 2+3 and 3+3 Turbo formations these days, never mind HSTs working outer-suburban semi-fasts to free more Turbos for those coupled formations. That's not to say there isn't a problem with overcrowding, there is, but GWR are doing the best they can with what they have to hand for the suburban services at the moment, which is a fleet ordered almost 25 years ago when you would have needed a very good crystal ball to predict the demands on the Turbo fleet these days.

Pretty much as soon as the first emus arrive, GWR will be pressing them into service out to Hayes & Harlington once staff are trained to operate them, precisely in order to boost capacity.

So that's where they come in! It all makes sense now

This and also the fact that trains over 5 cars in length are badly needed on GWR anyway. It seems like all the suburban trains coming out of Paddington are full and standing no matter what time of day it is.

How many people do you think use the Greenford service - the clue is the size of the trains that operate it... The key job of the emu shuttle to Hayes will be to provide an instant boost in capacity for the inner suburban mainline stations where the Turbos and Heathrow Connect desperately need help.