Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Philip Phlopp]

...but in saying taxis are cheaper you would have to allow for anyone who struggles to get in or out of a low seat being taxied around, which could get very expensive in areas where a lot of pensioners live!

I said that because Porterbrook have tipped £800,000 down a big drain labelled 144 evolution, and are expecting to spend from £350,000 per 2 car unit upwards to bring the rest of the fleet up to the same standard as the demonstrator unit.

It's stark raving lunacy to think that's appropriate to spend on a 30 year old vehicle that is pretty damn close to being life expired as it is, and which, lest we forget, is already over its planned life expectancy when new.

That sort of spending for just a handful of extra years in service is simply crazy. It also pays for a heck of a lot of taxis or other assistance for people who struggle to use trains now.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I said that because Porterbrook have tipped £800,000 down a big drain labelled 144 evolution, and are expecting to spend from £350,000 per 2 car unit upwards to bring the rest of the fleet up to the same standard as the demonstrator unit.

It's stark raving lunacy to think that's appropriate to spend on a 30 year old vehicle that is pretty damn close to being life expired as it is, and which, lest we forget, is already over its planned life expectancy when new.

That sort of spending for just a handful of extra years in service is simply crazy. It also pays for a heck of a lot of taxis or other assistance for people who struggle to use trains now.

The PRM-TSI rules AIUI though don't allow for widespread "cabstitution", but will in a handful of cases, for example where providing step-free access would be prohibitively expensive. "Equal but Different" is not really equal.

 

[northwichcat]

I said that because Porterbrook have tipped £800,000 down a big drain labelled 144 evolution, and are expecting to spend from £350,000 per 2 car unit upwards to bring the rest of the fleet up to the same standard as the demonstrator unit.

It's stark raving lunacy to think that's appropriate to spend on a 30 year old vehicle that is pretty damn close to being life expired as it is, and which, lest we forget, is already over its planned life expectancy when new.

That sort of spending for just a handful of extra years in service is simply crazy. It also pays for a heck of a lot of taxis or other assistance for people who struggle to use trains now.

Porterbrook are taking a lot of gambles at the moment, like ending the 323 lease with Northern even though there's no guarantee another operator will take on the released 323s, ordering additional 387s, ePacers etc. If their gambles don't pay off they'll take the financial hit.

 

[Bringback309s]

It was on last night's BBC Look East (3rd Jan) that Abellio are in talks with Vivarail over the Sudbury line...

 

[Z12XE]

It was on last night's BBC Look East (3rd Jan) that Abellio are in talks with Vivarail over the Sudbury line...

It didnt quite say that, it said that Vivarail were in talks with the bidders trying to convince them to take them in the new franchise.

 

[jcc]

Complete transcript:

"London Underground trains could be used on a rail line linking Marks Tey in Essex to Sudbury in Suffolk. The firm VivaRail has bought the 30-year-old District Line trains. It's in talks with train companies bidding to win the franchise to run the line later this year."

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Funny how some of the same people who are up in arms about "uninformed bluster" from the press about things like weather disruption or the Christmas 2014 over-runs are using the same bluster about the 230s. All this talk of life-expired London cast-offs that will get in the way of express services was discussed ad nauseum when the D-stock was thought to be heading North, now we seem to still be going over the same ground all over again about the Norfolk/Suffolk branches... :roll:

Of course, the 230s may in fact turn out to be useless, slow, unreliable and uncomfortable but then again they might not. Given the situation with unit shortages in that part of the world, I'd have thought a well-specified 230 variant would be welcomed with open arms, providing they can be proven to work. Indeed I'm actually disappointed that they won't be finding their way onto the Penistone line, I'd much rather a set of D-stock (even with only a minimal refresh!) than a Merseytravel 142 for the next 4 years, especially on a cold day like today!

 

[MML]

Indeed I'm actually disappointed that they won't be finding their way onto the Penistone line, I'd much rather a set of D-stock (even with only a minimal refresh!) than a Merseytravel 142 for the next 4 years, especially on a cold day like today!

Sounds another perfect route for the Class 230. Indeed, yet again it could offer a low-cost solution to improving service frequency. I have to say an hourly frequency can be off-putting, particularly when alternative road transport is available. But once a frequency is improved to half-hourly, it stimulates interest and is viewed as a reliable 'metro-style' service.

Certainly the following interior with destination board 'Huddersfield' looks like a modern and inviting alternative to the Pacer while investment in brand new DMU stock is focussed on the trunk routes.

I do wonder whether the local community would prefer a refurbished Class 156 with an hourly interval service in 4 years time or a refurbished D-train with half-hourly service in 2 years time. I suspect the latter.

http://www.vivarail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/D-Stock-Country_Rail_Interior.jpg

 

[47802]

Indeed I'm actually disappointed that they won't be finding their way onto the Penistone line, I'd much rather a set of D-stock (even with only a minimal refresh!) than a Merseytravel 142 for the next 4 years, especially on a cold day like today!

I'm not continuation of a second class product in my view, the new Northern Connect trains and refurbished sprinters should give a long overdue much better and consistent product.

In any case how quick do you think you would get the D trains I expect it would be a couple of years, and then you would still need some new trains or cascaded stock.

As for the interior picture isn't that the premium option, with other cheaper and more basic options available.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Funny how some of the same people who are up in arms about "uninformed bluster" from the press about things like weather disruption or the Christmas 2014 over-runs are using the same bluster about the 230s. All this talk of life-expired London cast-offs that will get in the way of express services was discussed ad nauseum when the D-stock was thought to be heading North, now we seem to still be going over the same ground all over again about the Norfolk/Suffolk branches... :roll:

Of course, the 230s may in fact turn out to be useless, slow, unreliable and uncomfortable but then again they might not. Given the situation with unit shortages in that part of the world, I'd have thought a well-specified 230 variant would be welcomed with open arms, providing they can be proven to work. Indeed I'm actually disappointed that they won't be finding their way onto the Penistone line, I'd much rather a set of D-stock (even with only a minimal refresh!) than a Merseytravel 142 for the next 4 years, especially on a cold day like today!

May I refer you to Part 873 of the site's rules?

873: Under no circumstances shall members disrespect any units belonging to Class 140 to 144

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Sounds another perfect route for the Class 230. Indeed, yet again it could offer a low-cost solution to improving service frequency. I have to say an hourly frequency can be off-putting, particularly when alternative road transport is available. But once a frequency is improved to half-hourly, it stimulates interest and is viewed as a reliable 'metro-style' service.

Certainly the following interior with destination board 'Huddersfield' looks like a modern and inviting alternative to the Pacer while investment in brand new DMU stock could be targeted on the primary routes.

I do wonder whether the local community would prefer a refurbished Class 156 with an hourly interval service in 4 years time or a refurbished D-train with half-hourly service in 2 years time. I suspect the latter.

http://www.vivarail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/D-Stock-Country_Rail_Interior.jpg

Indeed I had assumed back then that the Penistone line might have been the proving ground for the Vivarail project. However much like Mark's Tey-Sudbury the current service pattern is realistically the maximum without putting another loop in. Technically you could find a second path per hour but only in one direction each hour (the Penistone loop is not used to cross services except in the event of a delay to one or the other service, barring the evening peak extra in the Sheffield direction) which would not be ideal. A loop at Lockwood or Honley (or somewhere in between to avoid needing to provide a platform with step-free access, but avoiding Berry Brow (1993) which is built on the formation of the missing line) would be needed. Lockwood could possibly accommodate a "Penrhyn" solution but the disused section at the Huddersfield end might be too narrow for modern standards. Apologies for the diversion, of course!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

May I refer you to Part 873 of the site's rules?

873: Under no circumstances shall members disrespect any units belonging to Class 140 to 144

The gricer in me will miss them when they're gone, I admit... Just as I have a soft spot for the 141s which took me on many days out as a young 'un...

However, the sensible part of me (which is already on a hiding to nothing!) will be doing a massive happy-dance at midnight on 31/12/2019!

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

The gricer in me will miss them when they're gone, I admit... Just as I have a soft spot for the 141s which took me on many days out as a young 'un...

However, the sensible part of me (which is already on a hiding to nothing!) will be doing a massive happy-dance at midnight on 31/12/2019!

You are now my mortal enemy - i must destroy you

 

[Clip]

ooh look at the shiny 230 go. Cant wait to see a full functioning one on the mainline

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

ooh look at the shiny 230 go. Cant wait to see a full functioning one on the mainline

.....in the slow lane, of course..

 

[Clip]

.....in the slow lane, of course..

Nah that's reserved for those who cant see past their own prejudices against a bit of innovation on the railway and would like us to go back to steam or even horse drawn power

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Nah that's reserved for those who cant see past their own prejudices against a bit of innovation on the railway and would like us to go back to steam or even horse drawn power

Oh for those heady days of 1854, even before my time, when you could be transported by a horse-drawn "dandy car" on the Port Carlisle Railway...

 

[Clip]

Oh for those heady days of 1854, even before my time, when you could be transported by a horse-drawn "dandy car" on the Port Carlisle Railway...

No heady speeds of the 230 on those things Paul - that's why you should be celebrating these new fangled trains

 

[martinsh]

Oh for those heady days of 1854, even before my time, when you could be transported by a horse-drawn "dandy car" on the Port Carlisle Railway...

But I suspect you do remember the horse tram which worked the Fintona branch in Ireland ? That didn't stop running until 1957 !

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

No heady speeds of the 230 on those things Paul - that's why you should be celebrating these new fangled trains

I am sure that if the late Colonel Holman Fred Stephens could respond to certain postings on here, he too would be all for "innovation" of railway locomotives that did not need a very high top speed. I therefore, with a great deal of respect for his memory will stand aside, to let his "second incarnation" make the necessary posting response(s) should they be felt necessary.

Incidentally, have any of the model railway manufacturers said when they will be bringing out a ready to run "OO" gauge (or even a 18.84 mm gauge) scale model of a Class 230 unit?

 

[Clip]

But I suspect you do remember the horse tram which worked the Fintona branch in Ireland ? That didn't stop running until 1957 !

Paul was working on it right to its end but not as the horse as some may have thought

Incidentally, have any of the model railway manufacturers said when they will be bringing out a ready to run "OO" gauge (or even a 18.84 mm gauge) scale model of a Class 230 unit?

I suppose when the orders have been made and production is in full flow then they possibly will do then.

 

[The Ham]

Incidentally, have any of the model railway manufacturers said when they will be bringing out a ready to run "OO" gauge (or even a 18.84 mm gauge) scale model of a Class 230 unit?

I would have thought that they are waiting to see what livery they are needed in first.

 

[AndrewE]

I would have thought that they are waiting to see what livery they are needed in first.

That's just the final painting. I didn't think even the cab shape was properly finalised yet...
A

 

[sprinterguy]

I would have thought that they are waiting to see what livery they are needed in first.

And whether the trains enter service in any great numbers - The commercial model makers don't tend to go in for producing models of small batch prototypes with limited geographical range. There are plenty of squadron fleets not represented by the established model manufacturers, so at this stage any sort of a class 230 model would seem unlikely.

 

[The Ham]

And whether the trains enter service in any great numbers - The commercial model makers don't tend to go in for producing models of small batch prototypes with limited geographical range. There are plenty of squadron fleets not represented by the established model manufacturers, so at this stage any sort of a class 230 model would seem unlikely.

I was being a little flippant with my response, I too think that a class 230 model wouldn't be overly commercially viable (which may or may not be the case for the actual trains).

 

[sprinterguy]

I was being a little flippant with my response, I too think that a class 230 model wouldn't be overly commercially viable (which may or may not be the case for the actual trains).

Ah fair enough, it is rather a trivial issue for us to be discussing admittedly!

 

[40129]

Trying to re-call when the APT-P entered squadron service in large numbers as I seem to remember an OO-scale version

 

[sprinterguy]

Trying to re-call when the APT-P entered squadron service in large numbers as I seem to remember an OO-scale version

Okay okay, you've got me, although I didn't say that there weren't exceptions. Although BR were putting a lot of promotion into their "Train of the Future" at the time. I can't see Vivarail's converted D-trains capturing the imagination of the press and the public in quite the same way!

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Okay okay, you've got me, although I didn't say that there weren't exceptions. Although BR were putting a lot of promotion into their "Train of the Future" at the time. I can't see Vivarail's converted D-trains capturing the imagination of the press and the public in quite the same way!

Definitely some exceptions! There's prototype Deltic models, and Helijan (if i remember correctly and have spelt that correctly!) had a limited edition model of the "Super 47" loco that was later sold to the Soviet Union. I've seen models of the flying badger too but they may have been scratchbuilt. For a long time the only Southern Region EMUs in model were self-assembly kits. Unique units probably don't have much demand in model form, there's never been a Hornby PEP or 140!

 

[urpert]

GWR could consider use of the D-Train on branch line services closer to London too.

The 6 minute journey time along the Slough to Windsor route, the 12 minute journey from Twyford to Henley-on-Thames and the 23 minute journey from Maidenhead to Marlow should all be suitable routes for either 2 or 3 car units.

In theory perhaps, but given the demographic living on those branch lines I can't see GWR trying it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

In theory perhaps, but given the demographic living on those branch lines I can't see GWR trying it.

I can't see anyone seriously objecting for the Windsor branch. It's almost a Tube line anyway. Indeed, the increased standing space in the Tube style layout would probably be appreciated in the summer.