Southeastern Dispatch Procedure

[MrB]

Could somebody please explain the dispatch procedure for southeastern?

I was recently at Blackfriars and the dispatcher used a white baton and green flag showed directly to the driver. However the same day I was later at Tonbridge and only a white baton was used - this being shown twice to the guard (I presume for doors close and then right away). Which of these is correct and why is there variation?

Thanks in advance!

 

[ComUtoR]

Both are correct. One was given to the Driver and one was Given to the Guard, hence the difference.

Blackfriars is under Thameslink and uses their staff.

@A-Driver I sign both and both are correct for the location.

 

[A-driver]

There are a number of correct dispatch methods and it's all down to the specific location. There is no single procedure all UK locations use and even within a single TOC different locations vary. Both that you mention sound correct although I don't sign either location but both are reasonable dispatch methods used elsewhere.

 

[Kentish Paul]

There are a number of correct dispatch methods and it's all down to the specific location. There is no single procedure all UK locations use and even within a single TOC different locations vary. Both that you mention sound correct although I don't sign either location but both are reasonable dispatch methods used elsewhere.

Indeed. Southeastern High speed dispatch is platform at St Pancras (giving CD and RA) and Driver only at Stratford and Ebbsfleet.

 

[ComUtoR]

Some routes can have CD/RA, Bat'n'Flag, Guard and DOO all on the same trip

 

[A-driver]

Indeed. Southeastern High speed dispatch is platform at St Pancras (giving CD and RA) and Driver only at Stratford and Ebbsfleet.

But leaving driver self dispatch to one side, at a dispatched platform you can have a variety of methods used at different locations.

Norwood junction is a complicated one in some ways (may have changed but was when I signed it years ago)- up slow was bat and RA, up fast was self dispatch, down fast and down slow were bat and flag and down wallington was self dispatch.

 

[MrPIC]

And then you have it where at a manned station some stock gets CD/RA and others fitted with DOO cameras are self dispatch, where the platform staff essentially just stand and watch.

 

[LowLevel]

Could somebody please explain the dispatch procedure for southeastern?

I was recently at Blackfriars and the dispatcher used a white baton and green flag showed directly to the driver. However the same day I was later at Tonbridge and only a white baton was used - this being shown twice to the guard (I presume for doors close and then right away). Which of these is correct and why is there variation?

Thanks in advance!

SouthEastern guards don't dispatch their trains in the DOO area - off hand I think the boundary is Orpington. Bat and green flag is for dispatching a driver door operated service. Bat and bat is for dispatching guard operated trains as the guard gives the final movement authority rather than the platform staff. In some locations you might see the guard responding to the second bat with a green flag though which is telling the platform staff to operate an RA indicator when it's safe to do so.

 

[MrB]

Thank you for all the replies, I never knew there were this many methods of dispatch!

Am I right in saying the bats are replaced with lights at night so they can be seen more easily?

 

[craigybagel]

Mods please delete

 

[MrB]

SouthEastern guards don't dispatch their trains in the DOO area - off hand I think the boundary is Orpington. Bat and green flag is for dispatching a driver door operated service. Bat and bat is for dispatching guard operated trains as the guard gives the final movement authority rather than the platform staff. In some locations you might see the guard responding to the second bat with a green flag though which is telling the platform staff to operate an RA indicator when it's safe to do so.

From my limited knowledge I believe stations to Sevenoaks (Chelsfield, Dunton Green and Knockholt) may also be locations where the driver performs dispatch as I have seen mirrors and monitors on the platforms.

 

[ComUtoR]

From my limited knowledge I believe stations to Sevenoaks (Chelsfield, Dunton Green and Knockholt) may also be locations where the driver performs dispatch as I have seen mirrors and monitors on the platforms.

Orpington - Bat and Flag
Chelsfield, Knockholt, Dunton Green are DOO monitors. No Mirrors
Sevenoaks - Bat and Flag
Hildenborough - Guard
Tonbridge - Guard

 

[MrB]

Orpington - Bat and Flag
Chelsfield, Knockholt, Dunton Green are DOO monitors. No Mirrors
Sevenoaks - Bat and Flag
Hildenborough - Guard
Tonbridge - Guard

Does this mean that the guard disembarks at either Sevenoaks or Orpington and picks up another Kent bound service? Or do they stay on the train all the way to London - if so what is their duty?

 

[GatwickDepress]

Does this mean that the guard disembarks at either Sevenoaks or Orpington and picks up another Kent bound service? Or do they stay on the train all the way to London - if so what is their duty?

The guards stays on. Train safety, revenue, customer service - there's a lot more to 'guarding the train' than dispatch!

 

[theageofthetra]

My understanding is the first non DOO station is Hildenborough?

 

[craigybagel]

If no guard is available, is the train allowed to run DOO within the area where the driver controls the doors so long as they pick one up before they get to the 2 man operated area?

 

[Antman]

If no guard is available, is the train allowed to run DOO within the area where the driver controls the doors so long as they pick one up before they get to the 2 man operated area?

I believe not, an Ashford to Victoria train was cancelled the other evening due to no guard and ran empty, I would have thought it would have been in service from Otford to Victoria but it wasn't:cry:

 

[ComUtoR]

If no guard is available, is the train allowed to run DOO within the area where the driver controls the doors so long as they pick one up before they get to the 2 man operated area?

I would say yes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

To staff involved in this - do these differences cause any confusion that could lead to anything unsafe occurring, out of interest?

I can't think of any other country I've been to with so much variation - certainly while I've commented about SBB's unsafe dispatch procedure[1], so far as I can tell there are only three options on the mainline in Switzerland - guard dispatch using platform equipment, guard dispatch using handheld lamp/bat thing, and full DOO. And a given train seems to be either guard or DOO throughout - DOO is done using train-mounted mirrors, so it's the type of train that decides it, not the provision of platform equipment.

[1] The signal to depart is given before the doors are closed, and the doors are often closed without the staff looking properly. So if someone got trapped, there would be a serious accident. This is partly mitigated by the driver having a look-back mirror even on guard-operated services, but on a long train on a curved platform there is no way he would see an incident occurring to respond to it.

 

[ComUtoR]

To staff involved in this - do these differences cause any confusion that could lead to anything unsafe occurring?

I don't see any confusion whatsoever. As a Driver its my job to understand all forms of dispatch that I would encounter. As there is basically 3 methods its hardly confusing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't see any confusion whatsoever. As a Driver its my job to understand all forms of dispatch that I would encounter. As there is basically 3 methods its hardly confusing.

Fair enough, I just wondered. I assume it is part of the route learning as to which would occur at any given location?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe not, an Ashford to Victoria train was cancelled the other evening due to no guard and ran empty, I would have thought it would have been in service from Otford to Victoria but it wasn't:cry:

That's a little surprising - certainly on Chiltern and fGW the guard only joins the train when required - one is not there at all on the DOO sections of route.

 

[ComUtoR]

Fair enough, I just wondered. I assume it is part of the route learning as to which would occur at any given location?

Absolutely. It is crucial to understand where your booked to call and how you can be dispatched. If anything happens out of course you need to determine what action to take.

If your at a DOO station and the monitors are broken you have a different procedure and they will normally organise bat and flag.

What we learn is all the methods. As mentioned on numerous occasions the PTI (platform train interface) is a critical point so getting dispatch right is very important. Then we do it so regular it becomes second nature.

That's a little surprising

Which is why I said yes.

 

[Starmill]

I don't see any confusion whatsoever. As a Driver its my job to understand all forms of dispatch that I would encounter. As there is basically 3 methods its hardly confusing.

I think Neil's point is that it is very inconsistent what is considered safe where and why. Why is it considered safe for the driver to open and close the doors at one end of the route but not the other? Why do the Thameslink trains and some of the other Southeastern and Southern trains on the same lines not need a guard at all? Either money is being wasted on unnecessary and time-consuming safety procedures in some places, or safety is being put at risk by cost-cutting in others.

 

[ComUtoR]

I think Neil's point is that it is very inconsistent what is considered safe where and why.

Safe, safer, or safest. Different countries have different standards. Even Neils point mentioned curved platforms and mitigation.

Why is it considered safe for the driver to open and close the doors at one end of the route but not the other?

Can you explain further ?

Why do the Thameslink trains and some of the other Southeastern and Southern trains on the same lines not need a guard at all?

Which line ? I can only speak for the lines I sign so I'd need an example and route to confirm anything there.

Either money is being wasted on unnecessary and time-consuming safety procedures in some places, or safety is being put at risk by cost-cutting in others.

I'd say both. It is important to remember that each and every location is treated differently rather than a blanket one size fits all approach.

 

[Antman]

Fair enough, I just wondered. I assume it is part of the route learning as to which would occur at any given location?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


That's a little surprising - certainly on Chiltern and fGW the guard only joins the train when required - one is not there at all on the DOO sections of route.

Yes I found it rather strange that this train seemingly couldn't operate without a guard on a section of track where other trains run DOO.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes I found it rather strange that this train seemingly couldn't operate without a guard on a section of track where other trains run DOO.

Perhaps it could, and there was another reason for not running in service.

 

[A-driver]

Yes I found it rather strange that this train seemingly couldn't operate without a guard on a section of track where other trains run DOO.

Need to consider the bigger picture. If the train hasn't a guard then running it DOO in the DOO area may cause issues later-the train gets to London and needs a guard to go back out the DOO boundary-it may be booked out of London to run straight through the DOO area and into guard territory. They would end up then having a train blocking a platform in London unable to run back and not be able to access sidings due to pathing/spare space etc

It's not just that one single train they must consider but the next trips it's due to make and any knock on effects. Not as simple as just running DOO sometimes.

 

[74A]

In Brussels a few years ago the Guard closed the doors except his. Then he stepped onto the platform and gave the right away to the driver by putting his key in a device and something lit up on the signal.

Of course the driver could not take power as the guards door was still open. So when the guard shut his door the train moved off. The benefit of doing this meant that the driver would not get the permission to go if the signal was red.

 

[ComUtoR]

In Brussels a few years ago the Guard closed the doors except his. Then he stepped onto the platform and gave the right away to the driver by putting his key in a device and something lit up on the signal.

Of course the driver could not take power as the guards door was still open. So when the guard shut his door the train moved off. The benefit of doing this meant that the driver would not get the permission to go if the signal was red.

Very similar to our Guard dispatch. I believe that they are required to step onto the platform at each station. SE is fortunate in that the door close buttons are accessible but that isn't possible on all stock.

 

[A-driver]

In Brussels a few years ago the Guard closed the doors except his. Then he stepped onto the platform and gave the right away to the driver by putting his key in a device and something lit up on the signal.



Of course the driver could not take power as the guards door was still open. So when the guard shut his door the train moved off. The benefit of doing this meant that the driver would not get the permission to go if the signal was red.

Same in the UK-the guard must check for a clear signal before giving the RA. Guards can be taken off track pending investigation for trying to give the RA on a red-as can platform staff.