Will First Transpennine Express cease to serve Blackpool North?

[cool2005]

Hi, Is it true that from the start of the new franchise in April, First Transpennine Express express will stop serving Blackpool North station?

 

[Elecman]

I think yes is the answer but I may be mistaken

 

[tpebpn]

Yes its true. From april, no TPE trains to serve Blackpool, Barrow or Windermere

 

[Bletchleyite]

Finally putting those services back where they belong in the old NorthWest Express stable!

I wouldn't be too upset - they will become Northern Connect services with quality new/refurb rolling stock. I would expect better service, to be honest.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I think TPE will still have rights to a Blackpool-Glasgow service in the summer (which one day will be electric).

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Yes its true. From april, no TPE trains to serve Blackpool, Barrow or Windermere

Without wishing to be off-thread, but noting what you say above, what type of units will be running the services to Windermere, when the new franchise commences, as we normally use the first class seating in the Class 185 units when travelling there.?

 

[mwmbwls]

Without wishing to be off-thread, but noting what you say above, what type of units will be running the services to Windermere, when the new franchise commences, as we normally use the first class seating in the Class 185 units when travelling there.?

I stand open to correction but IIRC the current Northern Franchise does not offer first class seating. The current Blackpool service provided by class 156 stock sub-leased from Northern has already effectively declassified services from Blackpool North. We will need to wait to see what emerges with regards to the ordering of new stock by the incoming franchisee.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Northern connect will receive some of the 185's so it is likely you will see these and 158's on those services.

 

[pemma]

Northern connect will receive some of the 185's so it is likely you will see these and 158's on those services.

Do you know something Arriva haven't announced? Arriva have said Northern Connect routes will get brand new trains (not 185s) with the exception of 2 North East routes which will get refurbished 158s.

It's possible the released 185s could finish up at Northern but the suggestion of 185s going to Northern for Northern Connect seems to have come about as a result of people reading too much in to DfT saying 'new' trains for some lines and 'brand new' trains for other lines and putting 2 and 2 together and getting 7.

Given First Group will be likely be fitting new seats to the 185s they'll keep (they mention them being refurbished and having TVs in seat backs as on the FGW HSTs) they'll be plenty of spare seats available for another operator to fit to the other 185s to give a higher seating density without First Class if they so wish.
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I think TPE will still have rights to a Blackpool-Glasgow service in the summer (which one day will be electric).

TPE bidders were given the option of running to Edinburgh (from Newcastle), Liverpool (from Scotland), Blackpool (from Scotland) and Crewe (for anywhere) and First have taken up the former two options. I'm not sure they will run Blackpool to Scotland services given they'll only be 12 x 5 car trains for West Coast Scottish services (compared to 10 x 4 car now) and the extra 2 will be needed to provide the Liverpool service.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Without wishing to be off-thread, but noting what you say above, what type of units will be running the services to Windermere, when the new franchise commences, as we normally use the first class seating in the Class 185 units when travelling there.?

The ITT required Regional Express services (which Arriva have branded Northern Connect) to have similar features to the 185s but First Class wasn't specifically mentioned. Also while catering was mentioned it sounds like Arriva will be selling refreshments at all stations served by Northern Connect services opposed to providing a trolley service. Possibly the idea behind that is they'll be used by people who aren't travelling on Northern Connect services as well?

 

[swt_passenger]

For info Northern's track access application for the transferred services (31st Supplementary) is on NR's website now.

The purpose of this Supplemental Agreement is to obtain firm contractual rights in order to facilitate the delivery as instructed by The Secretary of State (SoS) for Northern Rail on behalf of the new franchisee to incorporate the re-mapped services from First TPE (MIA-Blackpool/Windermere/Barrow in Furness) as specified in the ITT from the commencement of the new Franchise Agreement.

Links to the usual info here, including an access rights table, with the calling patterns etc.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...31st SA - Section 22 - Closes 1 February 2016

 

[Crossover]

I have also heard that Northern will end up with an agreement similar to that of TPE and 156's in that Northern will receive a set number of 185's each day to run services, for now at least. This may be incorrect though, so open to correction!

 

[pemma]

I have also heard that Northern will end up with an agreement similar to that of TPE and 156's in that Northern will receive a set number of 185's each day to run services, for now at least. This may be incorrect though, so open to correction!

That was in the Northern and TPE ITTs but it presumed that TPE would get replacements for the 170s, so as replacements haven't been secured it may not still be happening.

Just realised that may have been what gimmea50anyday was referring to. However, the Northern Connect brand services aren't due to start until 2018 (by which time any initial loan of 185s will have ended) and only 5 Northern Connect routes are due to be launched in 2018, the rest will be in 2019. The ITT did allow a temporary downgrade of rolling stock quality on the services that transfer from TPE.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Given First Group will be likely be fitting new seats to the 185s they'll keep (they mention them being refurbished and having TVs in seat backs as on the FGW HSTs)

Are you sure? I thought what they were doing was making an entertainment database of some kind accessible via the Wifi from users' own devices?

The ITT required Regional Express services (which Arriva have branded Northern Connect) to have similar features to the 185s but First Class wasn't specifically mentioned. Also while catering was mentioned it sounds like Arriva will be selling refreshments at all stations served by Northern Connect services opposed to providing a trolley service. Possibly the idea behind that is they'll be used by people who aren't travelling on Northern Connect services as well?

Things are moving that way anyway on the railway as a whole. Station catering is hugely better than it was, and most of the time people take things with them as a result. Personally, the only thing I buy on board are hot drinks and the odd whim purchase like a choccy bar - the kind of thing easily sold from a trolley, and only really needed at all on trains with journey lengths over 2 hours if they can be bought at stations.

 

[PHILIPE]

Are you sure? I thought what they were doing was making an entertainment database of some kind accessible via the Wifi from users' own devices?



Things are moving that way anyway on the railway as a whole. Station catering is hugely better than it was, and most of the time people take things with them as a result. Personally, the only thing I buy on board are hot drinks and the odd whim purchase like a choccy bar - the kind of thing easily sold from a trolley, and only really needed at all on trains with journey lengths over 2 hours if they can be bought at stations.

Even when Starbucks taking over Pumpkins !!!

 

[Greybeard33]

I have also heard that Northern will end up with an agreement similar to that of TPE and 156's in that Northern will receive a set number of 185's each day to run services, for now at least. This may be incorrect though, so open to correction!

That was in the Northern and TPE ITTs but it presumed that TPE would get replacements for the 170s, so as replacements haven't been secured it may not still be happening.

Just realised that may have been what gimmea50anyday was referring to. However, the Northern Connect brand services aren't due to start until 2018 (by which time any initial loan of 185s will have ended) and only 5 Northern Connect routes are due to be launched in 2018, the rest will be in 2019. The ITT did allow a temporary downgrade of rolling stock quality on the services that transfer from TPE.

The Northern track access application asks for 185 timing loads in many of the remapped train slots. Where could Northern get alternative 100mph DMUs by April 2016, if it does not sub-lease TPE 185s?

 

[pemma]

The Northern track access application asks for 185 timing loads in many of the remapped train slots. Where could Northern get alternative 100mph DMUs by April 2016, if it does not sub-lease TPE 185s?

But then North and South TPE services have 100mph paths. There won't be enough 185s to cover all diesel services currently operated by TPE.

The only way I can think of that some more 100mph DMUs will be made available is if some 170s or 175s are subleased to Northern or TPE in exchange for Sprinters going in the other direction.

 

[RAPC]

For info Northern's track access application for the transferred services (31st Supplementary) is on NR's website now.



Links to the usual info here, including an access rights table, with the calling patterns etc.

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...31st SA - Section 22 - Closes 1 February 2016

Thanks for this. From reading the document, it mentions the regular calling pattern, which looks pretty consistent with the TPE calling patterns. Under additional stations it mentions Leyland on the Wigan routings. Does this mean that there will be a limited service on these routes, or is it just mentioned for the sake of flexibility should plans change longer term?

I am assuming the latter, but not being familiar with these sorts of documents I thought I would ask.

 

[Blindtraveler]

This will for me be no loss as I use South these days due to crap service at North. It will however potentially put costs up as TPE do offer many Advances toward Manchester.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd expect 158s. On the north WCML I doubt 90mph vs 100mph will make all that much difference.

 

[Philip]

I'm thinking three 175s a day loaned to Northern to replace the three 185 diagrams, with five or six 156s a day going to Arriva, to operate Llandudno services, doubled up mainly.

 

[pemma]

I'd expect 158s. On the north WCML I doubt 90mph vs 100mph will make all that much difference.

158s often run in slots timed for 170s and vice versa, but that's not the case with 185s and 158s.

 

[sprinterguy]

But then North and South TPE services have 100mph paths. There won't be enough 185s to cover all diesel services currently operated by TPE.

How many 185s are required to operate the current Blackpool North services? There will be that many fewer diesel units to source for North West services once these go over to 319 operation, which, if TPE have to sub-lease that many fewer 185s to the Northern franchise, might well cover the deficit caused by losing the rest of the 170s?

EDIT: Never mind, just checked the expected completion date for Blackpool electrification and it is well behind what I thought it was, offering no synergy with the loss of the remaining 170s.

 

[pemma]

EDIT: Never mind, just checked the expected completion date for Blackpool electrification and it is well behind what I thought it was, offering no synergy with the loss of the remaining 170s.

Well the CP5 HLOS was based on 4 x 185s being released by Blackpool electrification by December 16 with the Ordsall Chord being ready by then. In turn that allowing 4 units to be used on a new Piccadilly-Selby semi-fast on North TPE, so a lot has changed since.

 

[Class 170101]

Nothing will change until May timetable change date, diagrams and rosters all agreed until then. This will be a similar situation as per XC and WC between Birmingham and Scotland via the WCML when XC ceased to serve Glasgow via Preston.

 

[Philip]

Can anyone remember either Northern DMUs or even TPE 158s working Airport-Blackpool services, in place of booked 175s? Reliability of 175s was still poor in the latter days of their North West work, there must have been a few times when they were short of the daily allocation.

 

[Greybeard33]

Nothing will change until May timetable change date, diagrams and rosters all agreed until then. This will be a similar situation as per XC and WC between Birmingham and Scotland via the WCML when XC ceased to serve Glasgow via Preston.

TPE 185 diagramming is complex, but it seems that on weekdays there are currently five 185s still allocated to Airport (MIA) - Blackpool (BPN)/Barrow (BIF)/ Windermere (WDM) services for most of the day, in addition to the six Northern 156s. From RTT, the 185 diagrams appear to be as follows:

Diagram 1:
1U02 0337 BPN-MIA
1N52 0527 MIA-BPN
1N22 0736 BPN-MIA (with 6 from PRE)
1C72 0929 MIA-WDM (with 6 to PRE)
(WDM-OXeNholme shuttle)
1U76 1803 WDM-MIA
(then to Sheffield 1B96)

Diagram 2:
1C48 0435 BIF-LANcaster
2C00 0546 LAN-WDM
(WDM-OXN shuttle)
1N27 1055 WDM-MIA (with 6 from PRE)
1N63 1329 MIA-PRE (with 6)
(one hour dwell at PRE)
1C45 1546 PRE-BIF
1C76 1720 BIF-WDM (reverses at LAN)
(WDM-OXN shuttle)
1N39 2245 WDM-BPN (reverses at PRE)

Diagram 3:
1U50 0447 BPN-MIA
(then to Middlesborough 1P10)

Diagram 4:
1U52 0532 BIF-MIA
1N55 0756 MIA-BPN
1U59 0941 BPN-MIA (with 5 from PRE)
1C53 1129 MIA-BIF (with 5 to PRE)
1N33 1432 BIF-MIA (with 6 from PRE)
1C56 1729 MIA-BIF (with 6 to PRE)
1N37 2015 BIF-PRE
1C58 2147 PRE-BIF

Diagram 5:
1C49 0616 BIF-LAN
1C50 0733 LAN-BIF
1N25 0850 BIF-MIA (with 4 from PRE)
1N61 1129 MIA-BPN (with 4 to PRE)
(two hour dwell at BPN)
5C55 1503 BPN-Manchester Oxford Road (MCO) (ECS)
1C55 1714 MCO-BIF

Diagram 6:
1U56 0648 BIF-MIA (with 1 from PRE)
1N58 0929 MIA-BPN (with 1 to PRE)
1U63 1140 BPN-MIA (with 2 from PRE)
1N63 1329 MIA-BPN (with 2 to PRE)
1U71 1540 BPN-MIA (with 4 from PRE)
1N68 1729 MIA-BPN (with 4 to PRE)
1U79 1944 BPN-MIA
1N74 2129 MIA-BPN

Diagram 7:
(from York 1P53)
1C57 1900 MIA-BIF

Diagram 8:
(from Ardwick 5P61 ECS)
1C59 2200 MIA-BIF

Due to the interworking with TP North and TP South and the rotation of pairings, I think timetable changes would be needed to introduce a different class of unit on any of these diagrams. However, if TPE's four remaining 170s are still going to Chiltern in February 2016, this begs the question of what will replace them between February and the May timetable change?

 

[pemma]

Can anyone remember either Northern DMUs or even TPE 158s working Airport-Blackpool services, in place of booked 175s? Reliability of 175s was still poor in the latter days of their North West work, there must have been a few times when they were short of the daily allocation.

I'm under the impression 11 x 175s had to be loaned to TPE on a daily basis meaning if there were a lot of 175s out-of-service at the start of the day ATW took the hit not TPE.

I do recall someone posting a photo of a Merseytravel 142 at Holyhead showing "Manchester Piccadilly" on the destination display, which was reportedly filled in due to a 175 shortage during FNW days.

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm under the impression 11 x 175s had to be loaned to TPE on a daily basis meaning if there were a lot of 175s out-of-service at the start of the day ATW took the hit not TPE.

I do recall someone posting a photo of a Merseytravel 142 at Holyhead showing "Manchester Piccadilly" on the destination display, which was reportedly filled in due to a 175 shortage during FNW days.

Thats correct ATW had to cover the TPE jobs in preference to their own if availability under par.

 

[323235]

I'm under the impression 11 x 175s had to be loaned to TPE on a daily basis meaning if there were a lot of 175s out-of-service at the start of the day ATW took the hit not TPE.

I do recall someone posting a photo of a Merseytravel 142 at Holyhead showing "Manchester Piccadilly" on the destination display, which was reportedly filled in due to a 175 shortage during FNW days.

I remember seeing a Merseyrail 142 at Penmaenmawr after ATW had taken over, it happened on a number of occasions. I also had the pleasure of an FNW 142 running an ATW service from Chester - Manchester via Warrington. It failed with a door fault and took 10-15 minutes to get going.

 

[PHILIPE]

I'm thinking three 175s a day loaned to Northern to replace the three 185 diagrams, with five or six 156s a day going to Arriva, to operate Llandudno services, doubled up mainly.

The Llandudno services are timed at 100mph with 156s being 75max. ATW Drivers are not conversant with 156s and they would have to see Liverpool for their Maintenance at Allerton.