Class 387

[superalbs]

With the Class 387 units that GWR are expecting to receive this year and next, will they be expected to operate some sort of 'pre-Crossrail' electric service, in the style of what TfL Rail/MTR are doing?

I read once that they're operating a Hayes & Harlington to Paddington electric service. I guess that'll be good for driver training on the new stock, while the other wires continue to go up.

 

[D365]

I read once that they're operating a Hayes & Harlington to Paddington electric service. I guess that'll be good for driver training on the new stock, while the other wires continue to go up.

That's the one I've heard most often about (with the Greenford branch service being cut back), but I'm meaning in terms of the interim service plan when the wires go up to Maidenhead/Reading, in preparation for Crossrail.

 

[swt_passenger]

With the Class 387 units that GWR are expecting to receive this year and next, will they be expected to operate some sort of 'pre-Crossrail' electric service, in the style of what TfL Rail/MTR are doing?

Only to the extent that electric trains from Paddington to Hayes and Harlington will most likely run in paths that will be eventually handed over to Crossrail, but not in the same manner as TfL Rail which is a separate TOC (basically it is Crossrail under a temporary name).

The GW franchise was not required to set up a 'transferrable business unit' in the way AGA were, because the proportion of GW services subsumed into Crossrail is comparatively small.

Not sure how or if that applies to GW's joint operation with Heathrow Connect - some people there might automatically transfer to Crossrail, but an insider might know more.

So if GW happen to run a Paddington - Maidenhead stopper in a future Crossrail path for a couple of years, I'd expect it will stay branded as normal GW, and when Crossrail take over the route then the GW stock will simply move to another GW route.

 

[Class377/5]

http://echonews.co.uk/news/14202208.Ext ... ref=twtrec

C2C has announced it is entering talks to get more carriages from another train company - and giving away two free days travel to season ticket holders - as it bows to pressure from angry commuters.

The train company says it has "reached agreement in principle" with another train operator to lease additional carriages to provide extra capacity on c2c at peak times.

Because of the disruption passengers have faced in recent weeks as the new timetable settles, c2c is offering c2c season ticket holders a cash apology worth the equivalent of two days’ free travel. This means those who buy the most expensive tickets will be able to claim up to £30. Full details of how to claim will be made available online in the next few days.


The timetable is set to change again from Monday, January 18.

Carriages will be leased from another operator, which c2c hasn't named, until delivery of the brand new trains that c2c is already contracted to deliver from 2019.

c2c Managing Director Julian Drury said: “We want to provide our customers with a better train service than anyone else in the UK, despite the soaring demand we have seen. Both south Essex and east London are areas of huge growth. They are our home area, and they matter enormously to us. We are trying to modernise our service to support this economic success story, and to provide the transport infrastructure that the local communities need.

“We know that the first major changes to the c2c timetable in a decade have been disruptive for many people, particularly during the evening peak. We appreciate their patience, and we are sorry for the unsettling impact this has had, which is why we’re offering our season ticket holders a cash apology. We are continuing to do everything we can to provide as many seats and as much capacity as possible for our passengers.”

Coud be the 387s, would sense for GWR with the delayed wires.

 

[ScotGG]

How many 378's will be needed to run the Hayes & Harlington electric services? Is 10 too much?

Regarding the above, imagine the same happening with Southeastern given overcrowding, capacity cuts and Barnehurst problems? Seems inconceivable. Just about every other TOCs seems to be having more success getting stock.

 

[southern442]

How many 378's* will be needed to run the Hayes & Harlington electric services? Is 10 too much?

Regarding the above, imagine the same happening with Southeastern given overcrowding, capacity cuts and Barnehurst problems? Seems inconceivable. Just about every other TOCs seems to be having more success getting stock.

*387's. Sorry

Southeastern are supposed to be getting some of the 377/1's I believe, or has that been dropped?

 

[ScotGG]

You know I even looked at it after posting and knew it looked wrong and still it didn't twig! It's late...

Regarding 377/1s - the decision is apparently to be confirmed this summer so nothing is 100% and even then a bit of a wait until they arrive in late '17 or early '18. No word on some 319s moving at any time either. I wouldn't even be surprised if they wait until the franchise is re-let and not much happens to boost capacity until 2020. Hoping Crossrail magically fixes all things including on lines that are nowhere near it.

Meanwhile browsing on here and it can seem to be a litany of additional stock announcements for many other TOCs. It does get tiring as SE services become increasingly crowded.

If there's anymore 387s that would lie idle from early 2017 they would be appreciated at SE, if only for a year or two until some 377/1s arrive, if they do.

 

[Class377/5]

SE franchise and GTR contract both include the 377 transfer, as it's not supposed to happen until next the deal hasn't been signed over. It's the same as when Southern had the clause to give FCC 3x 377/2 as part of KO1.

SE were looking at hiring addititional 319s from this year when they start to become available after the 700 introduction. Note the 319s don't get released until the 8 car 700/0s arrive.

 

[Sunset route]

Does anyone know why there is an 8car 387/2 stabled on No3 road Tilgate Sidings of Three Bridges Thameslink Depot. Are they fully commissioned units just berthed out of the way?

 

[Julian G]

Does anyone know why there is an 8car 387/2 stabled on No3 road Tilgate Sidings of Three Bridges Thameslink Depot. Are they fully commissioned units just berthed out of the way?

For storage. 387203/206

 

[D365]

For storage. 387203/206

Why put two units in storage; anything to do with an announcement recently made..?

 

[Julian G]

Why put two units in storage; anything to do with an announcement recently made..?

Probably lack of space at Stewarts Lane T&RSMD.

 

[hwl]

They will probably want a large number that have successfully completed testing before they try to launch a service and start withdrawing 442s possibly 6-8 387 units just to get a guaranteed 2x 12 car trains out and all the existing depots are pretty full until the 387/1 start departing for GWR.

 

[causton]

Any idea when this is likely to be? Not seen much on the introduction date even though they've been going up and down the WCML for months (don't even think I've seen one though, surprisingly!)

 

[Class377/5]

They will probably want a large number that have successfully completed testing before they try to launch a service and start withdrawing 442s possibly 6-8 387 units just to get a guaranteed 2x 12 car trains out and all the existing depots are pretty full until the 387/1 start departing for GWR.

The 387/1 departing is seperate to the introduction of 387/2s on GatEx services.

All will become clear soon enough.

Oh and I'm now told the 387s are not the stock c2c will introduce this year.

 

[87015]

Oh and I'm now told the 387s are not the stock c2c will introduce this year.

It never was :roll:

TfL deal for the Porterbrook sets rumoured to have fallen down as well, leasing costs too high against alternatives.

 

[D365]

So from what I understand, the situation is two London TOCs (LO/'eGoblin' and c2c) are seeking temporary stock before their new-build fleets are introduced, albeit the latter needs units in immediate service.

What are the alternatives? Are working 319s in supply?

 

[ScotGG]

So from what I understand, the situation is two London TOCs (LO/'eGoblin' and c2c) are seeking temporary stock before their new-build fleets are introduced, albeit the latter needs units in immediate service.

What are the alternatives? Are working 319s in supply?

Southeastern also seeking additional stock before class 377/1s move.

 

[urpert]

What are the alternatives? Are working 319s in supply?

There can't be that many - Wimbledon and Sevenoaks services are still >90% 319 from my daily observation.

 

[D365]

There can't be that many - Wimbledon and Sevenoaks services are still >90% 319 from my daily observation.

I'm referring to the 319s that were displaced by 387/1s - bearing in mind that the Class 387 is, by contract, required to have a far greater standard of reliability compared to previous Electrostars and therefore has in theory made available a greater number of 319s.

 

[Class377/5]

I'm referring to the 319s that were displaced by 387/1s - bearing in mind that the Class 387 is, by contract, required to have a far greater standard of reliability compared to previous Electrostars and therefore has in theory made available a greater number of 319s.

All 319s displaced by the 387/1 have been taken.

 

[D365]

All 319s displaced by the 387/1 have been taken.

Does that include the units at Wolverton?

 

[RobShipway]

I believe that the 319's that are being refurbished that are not going to Northern are actually returning to GTR as the class 319's will still need to be used not only during the introduction of the class 700's but even after they have been introduced as well as they are to be kep as spares, is that not correct?

 

[158722]

If I'm reading things correctly, Porterbrook are not involved in the C2C deal, which somewhat limits the potential options available or was the comment regarding only their 387s?

The first 700s are due into service in April (?), allowing a few 387/1s to move to GWR, otherwise I can see why the 387/1s would have been the obvious solution. Unless this is changed, given delays to the GW electrification, those first few 700s could allow some 319s or 377s to go to C2C, with later 700 deliveries displacing the 387s required for GW's Hayes & Harlington services.

Either way, the only other manner I can see any AC stock being made available in the next few months is some convoluted deal/moves involving the 442s - the only other stock becoming available in the next few months, resulting from the 387/2s coming into service - April again? Are there suitable diagrams which the 442s could take over from 377s, of any variety on Southern services, allowing a shuffle around of 377 diagrams with some 377/2s being made available for C2C? From what I can recall, not all the 377/2s are required for dual voltage diagrams.

 

[RobShipway]

If I'm reading things correctly, Porterbrook are not involved in the C2C deal, which somewhat limits the potential options available or was the comment regarding only their 387s?

The first 700s are due into service in April (?), allowing a few 387/1s to move to GWR, otherwise I can see why the 387/1s would have been the obvious solution. Unless this is changed, given delays to the GW electrification, those first few 700s could allow some 319s or 377s to go to C2C, with later 700 deliveries displacing the 387s required for GW's Hayes & Harlington services.

Either way, the only other manner I can see any AC stock being made available in the next few months is some convoluted deal/moves involving the 442s - the only other stock becoming available in the next few months, resulting from the 387/2s coming into service - April again? Are there suitable diagrams which the 442s could take over from 377s, of any variety on Southern services, allowing a shuffle around of 377 diagrams with some 377/2s being made available for C2C? From what I can recall, not all the 377/2s are required for dual voltage diagrams.

As the details within http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/documents/get_lob?id=3865&age=&field=file shows the freed class 377 trains will go to the GN Kings Lynn services, so those will not be free and as has been discussed previously the class 442's will either be scrapped or used as loco hauled coaches.

 

[D365]

Only 19 of the 23 Class 377/5s will be passed on to Great Northern; that move is not planned to take place until next year. And six 442s will definitely be retained for peak hour services, at least in the interim.

 

[158722]

As the details within http://www.londontravelwatch.org.uk/documents/get_lob?id=3865&age=&field=file shows the freed class 377 trains will go to the GN Kings Lynn services, so those will not be free and as has been discussed previously the class 442's will either be scrapped or used as loco hauled coaches.

I'm quite aware of the other plans lined up, but what we are looking at here is a solution for C2C which will be available in the next few months. As DAB_move has just pointed out, there is a small amount of slack in the 377s plans (those 4 377/5s) and the word coming from usually very reliable sources, is that the use of 442 as hauled stock is not going to happen (baited breath on TPE/Northern plans for that one...!)

 

[Minstral25]

If I'm reading things correctly, Porterbrook are not involved in the C2C deal, which somewhat limits the potential options available or was the comment regarding only their 387s?

The first 700s are due into service in April (?), allowing a few 387/1s to move to GWR, otherwise I can see why the 387/1s would have been the obvious solution. Unless this is changed, given delays to the GW electrification, those first few 700s could allow some 319s or 377s to go to C2C, with later 700 deliveries displacing the 387s required for GW's Hayes & Harlington services.

Either way, the only other manner I can see any AC stock being made available in the next few months is some convoluted deal/moves involving the 442s - the only other stock becoming available in the next few months, resulting from the 387/2s coming into service - April again? Are there suitable diagrams which the 442s could take over from 377s, of any variety on Southern services, allowing a shuffle around of 377 diagrams with some 377/2s being made available for C2C? From what I can recall, not all the 377/2s are required for dual voltage diagrams.

From a passenger point of view. There are virtually no diagrams that a 442 could take over from a 377. The 442's dwell time is far to long and they are not good when filled to capacity as most 377's are at some point in there diagram. I have stood on a 442 when at full capacity squashed right down the aisle and it is a very unpleasant experience.

I am concerned that everyone feels there are many 377's available for passing on. Again from a passenger perspective there are too many short forms and cancellations because of lack of stock across Southern. The 700's will take over some services - Tattenham and Horsham - from Southern stock. But Tattenham is partly 455's and Horshams aren't that many units when you add that 25 units are off to SouthEastern anyway.

I can see any spare (if it exists) being used to extend currently overloaded trains and stop the short forms that are daily.

 

[158722]

From a passenger point of view. There are virtually no diagrams that a 442 could take over from a 377. The 442's dwell time is far to long and they are not good when filled to capacity as most 377's are at some point in there diagram. I have stood on a 442 when at full capacity squashed right down the aisle and it is a very unpleasant experience.

I am concerned that everyone feels there are many 377's available for passing on. Again from a passenger perspective there are too many short forms and cancellations because of lack of stock across Southern. The 700's will take over some services - Tattenham and Horsham - from Southern stock. But Tattenham is partly 455's and Horshams aren't that many units when you add that 25 units are off to SouthEastern anyway.

I can see any spare (if it exists) being used to extend currently overloaded trains and stop the short forms that are daily.

Whilst I see where you are coming from, Southern/Thameslink are the only franchises which will be getting extra stock into service during the next few months, so any 319/377s taken away won't result in much of a reduction in overall capacity. Whilst it won't contribute to existing lack of capacity issues, it won't cause new ones - which is more than likely to happen at any other franchise, if stock is simply taken away without any replacement.

I see someone mentioned the GN 317/321s, Angel & Eversholt owned respectively. Any 377/5s sourced from Thameslink operations via some complex swapping of units around on Southern (387/2s, 442s, 377s, etc) with the 377/5s move to Hornsey brought forward, allowing 317s or 321s to C2C? As I said, the quote elsewhere was for Porterbrook units not being the solution for C2C.

 

[RobShipway]

Whilst I see where you are coming from, Southern/Thameslink are the only franchises which will be getting extra stock into service during the next few months, so any 319/377s taken away won't result in much of a reduction in overall capacity. Whilst it won't contribute to existing lack of capacity issues, it won't cause new ones - which is more than likely to happen at any other franchise, if stock is simply taken away without any replacement.

I see someone mentioned the GN 317/321s, Angel & Eversholt owned respectively. Any 377/5s sourced from Thameslink operations via some complex swapping of units around on Southern (387/2s, 442s, 377s, etc) with the 377/5s move to Hornsey brought forward, allowing 317s or 321s to C2C? As I said, the quote elsewhere was for Porterbrook units not being the solution for C2C.

Personally as Minstral25 has pointed out I do not see any 377's going spare, if anything they will be used to relieve the capacity on existing services to form 10 - 12 car trains where needed, other than any that will some point in the future be going to GN services.

What is happening with 365001-3650016 when the class 700's star coming on stream?

What I can possibly see happening is that some of the class 365's i.e. 365001 - 3650016 passing back to South Eastern temporarily and some of the 4 car class 375's moving on loan to C2C possibly?

At some point though I would expect that C2C in the long term receiving new stock, which probably would be something like the Bombardier Adventra.