Southeastern/Thameslink passengers least satisfied in UK

[SeanR69]

With regards to dirty trains - when passengers are at home do they

1. Put their feet on the seats with shoes on
2. Throw or leave cups and food wrappers on the floor/table
3. Urinate on the floor or leave a s*** smeared pan

If so I would hate to go to dinner with any of them as trains do go out clean and most have bins on them - just an observation.

 

[paddy1]

For all their faults, in my opinion the Thameslink service run by Govia is a massive improvement on the truly appalling service offered and attitude to customers when it was run by First Capital Connect (FCC).

FCC offered a 4 coaches only service between Bedford and Brighton for much of the day on a Monday to Friday and a 4 coaches only all day on Sundays whenever the cross London link was severed and reduced to a Bedford - St Pancras shuttle. This included when the service was operating only half hourly and all stations during early morning and late evening periods on a Sunday. When FCC ran this shuttle on Saturdays whenever the through link was curtailed it was also mainly run as 4 coaches only all day as well.

As a consequence there were some serious off peak overcrowding issues on this route which FCC were always very defensive and in denial about whenever you queried this via the 'Customer Comments and Feedback link', as evidenced by their dismissive 'cut and paste' random paragraph standard letter responses. In the end I gave up.

When Govia took over the Thameslnk service I was expecting the worst and thought it would be operated like the London Midland Euston - Northampton/Crewe service which is 4 coaches only most of the week, other than at peak times Monday to Friday. However, I have been pleasantly surprised.

Virtually all Monday - Friday Bedford - Three Bridges/Brighton service are now run as 8 coach trains off peak, as well as on a Saturday. On a Sunday (and Saturday) whenever the service is reduced to a Bedford - St Pancras shuttle I have found that these are run as 8 coach trains as well.

Not only that, but Govia also run far more 12 coach trains on this route than FCC ever did and this includes quite a few 12 coach services at off peak times and late at night on a Monday to Friday.

Yes, there are some serious issues with Govia and punctuality and cancelled trains which can be frustrating, but these issues also existed when the service was run by FCC.

Overall, however, the longer off peak trains are long overdue on this route and off peak travel on the Bedford - Three Bridges/Brighton line is a far more pleasant and relaxing experience that it ever was when the service was run by the 'penny pinching' FCC.

So I do think that Govia are due some credit and appreciation for this at least and I am surpised that this significant improvement and increase in off peak capacity is not reflected in these customer satisfaction surveys. Well done Govia!

 

[sarahj]

I have yet to travel on a train down there that is littered with passenger's rubbish. I think they have better turnaround and on train cleaning than Northern do.

 

[Chrisgr31]

As a matter of interest are train fares expensive? Walk up fares might be especially for some routes, but is a season ticket? How else is one going to do the journey? Rail had a disadvantage of having to pay all its costs, on the road its different. Driving gives even more uncertainity about timekeeping!

 

[DerekC]

Not only that, but Govia also run far more 12 coach trains on this route than FCC ever did and this includes quite a few 12 coach services at off peak times and late at night on a Monday to Friday.

Not trying to take anything away from Govia as day to day operator, but it's worth remembering that a lot of yours and my money has gone into making Thameslink a generally 12-car capable route and buying the extra trains to run on it.
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I have yet to travel on a train down there that is littered with passenger's rubbish. I think they have better turnaround and on train cleaning than Northern do.

Well, you haven't been on any south of the river services late on a Friday or Saturday night, then. I don't believe in this great divide in behaviour! Maybe there is more money in running London-centred services so there are more cleaning staff.

 

[southern442]

Govia Thameslink Railway owns Thameslink and Great Northern, London Midland, Southern as well as Gatwick Express

No, Which, GTR does not own London Midland. How can a TOC own another TOC? :roll:

I also see that TfL Rail is 3rd in terms of delays, and LO is 7th. HA, HA, in your face TfL! To be honest I wasn't really expecting TfL Rail to be so high up on the list.

Another thing that was interesting is 15% wanted more staff on trains. In your face TfL again?

 

[b127222]

Another thing that was interesting is 15% wanted more staff on trains. In your face TfL again?

Or alternatively 85% were happy with existing staff levels or actually wanted fewer staff.

 

[notadriver]

If things are so bad in the South east why aren't people switching in their masses to other transport modes ? There must surely be a HUGE market for dissatisfied train passengers on luxury clean and punctual coaches going to and from London?

 

[infobleep]

I can see why the survey gives the results that it does, however there are issues with it.

Great Northern/Southern is undergoing a massive fleet renewal at the current time - the Class 700s and Class 707s about to replace their oldest and shabbiest stock. Certainly once they're implemented the satisfaction should begin to rise in terms of onboard envionment, and reliability hopefully. The franchise is currently being hit with major improvement works at London Bridge that are frequently causing disruption. Passengers as a result are dissatisfied with the services being disrupted, and thus the TOC gets it in the neck for the issues.

Granted though that onboard cleaniness is something that can be resolved by the TOC. The ones I used the other day though were perfectly clean. Although a new train wash could be invested in - the roofs of the 377/5s are black, and the 387s are accumulating dirt!

In regards to the survey itself, firstly it doesn't differentiate between commuters and off peak/leisure travellers - I am fairly confident there could be a stark difference in satifaction considering the fairly high value commuters put on punctuality and avaliability of seating (partly resulting from the season ticket prices, particularly in the south east).

Also only 7000 people were surveyed - considering the level of people who use the railways can this be accepted as truly accurate? There could be an issue that those who choose to do the survey are those who are inclined to moan, and thus the results reflects this.

I've never commuted on any of the Kent lines, however I have done so on the Snow Hill lines - rather interestingly complimented on the BBC page today as being ontime the majority of the time and overcrowding not usually an issue. Certainly I agree with this - when I did so it was busy, but most got seats and it's a pleasant experience. LM keep the 172s clean (one nice example is that a dedicated, hard working cleaner cleans the train between Dorridge and Widney Manor during the day) and well maintained - the only area they could improve on is communication when there is a problem - can be mixed at times.

I think really the core problem underlying the satisfaction figures is the sheer numbers who commute in the south east has just put too much of a strain on an ageing and complex infrastructure - it only takes one problem for the system to snowball now. That's down to investment levels, and infrasturucture planning. However there's no easy solution considering the high population density on the inner main lines into London. The dream scenario would be a few new additional lines along the core corridors alleviating pressure on the current lines - however as we know that's expensive, immensely complicated, and no quick fix.

I get the impression, which may be wrong, that for some years people buried their head in the sands and didn't do anything about stock shortages and rising passenger numbers. Now we have issues. They are being addressed but layer that they should have been.

 

[al78]

If things are so bad in the South east why aren't people switching in their masses to other transport modes ? There must surely be a HUGE market for dissatisfied train passengers on luxury clean and punctual coaches going to and from London?

Are the coaches any better? They would probably be slower, are prone to delays at least as much as trains are. It also depends on where the nearest coach station is.

Another question to ask might be that if the daily commute is so tortuous in the south east, why do so many people still choose to have jobs and homes 50+ miles apart?

 

[Tetchytyke]

No, Which, GTR does not own London Midland. How can a TOC own another TOC? :roll:

GoVia seem to think that Thameslink, Great Northern, Southern and Gatwick Express are all different TOCs...

 

[Chrisgr31]

If things are so bad in the South east why aren't people switching in their masses to other transport modes ? There must surely be a HUGE market for dissatisfied train passengers on luxury clean and punctual coaches going to and from London?

They are! Well in one specific area they are anyway. There are a significant number of coaches that come up from the Medway towns every day. There are 2 which come up from Tunbridge Wells I think.

For coaches to work the road links need to be good enough and not too crowded. That's why the Medway towns work, because it is dual carriageway or motorway for most of the distance and bus lane once in London and I think the train is relatively slow or if on high speed very expensive.

Tunbridge Wells competes on price, the coach leaves early to avoid traffic.

not sure how flexible the coaches are about travel times whether you are fixed to certain times, whether you can go in late, home late, early etc.

As regards why people do it, because they have to! Insufficient jobs outside London, too expensive and too busy to live in London!

 

[3141]

I'm not satisfied.
It's bad value for money in every regard.
Bad connections. (Trains don't time well at many places or connect with buses) etc)

No, it's the buses that don't time with the trains. Think about how a bus connects. Does it bring you to the station to catch a train, or does it collect your after you arrive by train? If the same bus serves both objectives then it must wait at the station for at least five minutes and in practice up to ten. So then the passengers who were on it when it got to the station and are going somewhere further along the route will start complaining about how they have to hang around.

There was a letter in one of the railway magazines a few years ago from somebody grumbling about connections at Manchester Piccadilly.
He said there were six TOCS serving the station "and none of them connect with one another". NONE of them?

Also only 7000 people were surveyed - considering the level of people who use the railways can this be accepted as truly accurate? There could be an issue that those who choose to do the survey are those who are inclined to moan, and thus the results reflects this.

Absolutely. I'm a Which member and they ask me to do surveys (though not the railway one for the past few years). Sometimes I don't respond if I'm not much interested in the subject or have no particular feelings about it. But if I have strong views I'm much more likely to respond. Especially if I've recently had a bad experience of that particular service - answering the survey is like a kind of revenge! Or if I've had a good experience and would like to say that I've found the service working well.

As for "value for money" - how do most people know? If I normally have to stand on my journey, because I get on the train well after its starting-point so there are already lots of others on board, and on my most recent trip I got delayed, I'm probably going to say it's poor value. If it all went well and the guard was friendly I'll be more inclined to say it was good value. I bet some people would say good value on one occasion and poor value on another when the fare was the same both times, depending on whether or not it went smoothly.

 

[Antman]

If things are so bad in the South east why aren't people switching in their masses to other transport modes ? There must surely be a HUGE market for dissatisfied train passengers on luxury clean and punctual coaches going to and from London?

Probably because there are HUGE amounts of traffic congestion for these coaches to get stuck in.

As mentioned there are a lot of commuter coaches from the Medway Towns, and Gravesend, which go direct to Canary Wharf but generally journeys would just be too slow.

 

[Via Bank]

Probably because there are HUGE amounts of traffic congestion for these coaches to get stuck in.

As mentioned there are a lot of commuter coaches from the Medway Towns, and Gravesend, which go direct to Canary Wharf but generally journeys would just be too slow.

There are also a significant number of coaches coming in from the north of London - again, many commuters will happily sacrifice timetabled journey time for a guaranteed seat, a coach that is clean and air conditioned, and a significantly cheaper fare.

And let us not forget that TSGN's and SE's performance of late has been dire - not only because of infrastructure factors, but also because of driver shortages on GTR, which simply shouldn't happen. So if the only real advantage to paying the premium for the train is a faster journey, which then gets wiped out by frequent and unpredictable delays, commuters are quite within their rights to ask what on earth it is they're paying for.

 

[southern442]

There are also a significant number of coaches coming in from the north of London - again, many commuters will happily sacrifice timetabled journey time for a guaranteed seat, a coach that is clean and air conditioned, and a significantly cheaper fare.

I do indeed know people that use the coach as their preferred method of transport for exactly those reasons. For a student or a young worker, the coach is brilliant - cheap, guaranteed seat with seat back table usually coughcoughclass700'scoughcough and it is more convenient in some cases - several routes stop at local bus stops.

 

[StateOfPlay]

Are the coaches any better? They would probably be slower, are prone to delays at least as much as trains are. It also depends on where the nearest coach station is.

Another question to ask might be that if the daily commute is so tortuous in the south east, why do so many people still choose to have jobs and homes 50+ miles apart?

A good job is hard to find. And if you grew up in an area you don't want to move too far away from it. You would lose contact with family and friends. I am a member of the "just under 50 miles away from work" club and made the choice as I was priced out of London. But I did not want to move too far away from my Mum as she is getting older and I need to be around to help her.

Anyway, we pay our money to travel into London and all we ask is that our train operator have clean trains that run on time and enough crew to drive a train. Many of us are happy to stand, as long as we get to where we are going on time. It is soul destroying to get back to Kings Cross on a Friday evening and see your train has been cancelled due to lack of train crew.

On the positive side, I had to use South West trains last week and it was a much better experience than Great Northern. If we are to get these new style trains on the Peterborough to London route then I will be really happy.

 

[paddy1]

Not trying to take anything away from Govia as day to day operator, but it's worth remembering that a lot of yours and my money has gone into making Thameslink a generally 12-car capable route and buying the extra trains to run on it.
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A lot of our taxpayer money goes into supporting certain 'penny pinching' train operators who provide a lousy service, keep as much of their rolling stock as possible in the sidings for most of the day, and who ever increasingly 'shoehorn' passengers on long distance services into 2, 3, 4 and 5 car trains that are ill suited for purpose. For this reason, wherever possible, I try and avoid the likes of EMT, SWT, First TPE, Cross Country, London Midland etc..

When you get the odd exception to this, such as Thameslink and Virgin, who increased train lengths on their services in recent years, then I am more than happy to have taxes channeled towards them in return for a more relaxed and enjoyable journey, which is what many of who undertake a lot of discretionary travel want when we choose rail over car, coach or air as our preferred mode.

 

[ScotGG]

As a matter of interest are train fares expensive? Walk up fares might be especially for some routes, but is a season ticket? How else is one going to do the journey? Rail had a disadvantage of having to pay all its costs, on the road its different. Driving gives even more uncertainity about timekeeping!

The only real comparison is with similar developed nations. And on that front they are very expensive. Many studies have looked into it. On average UK commuters pay 3-4 times as much as in Germany, Japan, US (where rail and metro exist), France etc for season tickets. All countries with similar or greater GDP per capita and average wages.

They also all have lower house prices, which means people aren't forced into living in area far from work thus requiring train use.

The world of the last 10-20 years is not the same as it was up to the 90s. Many then chose to move out from cities. Younger people do not choose to do so now on the whole - the increasing centralisation of employment in city centres coupled with housing costs way in excess of average wages means people are driven further and further out unless wealthy.

 

[EM2]

On average UK commuters pay 3-4 times as much as in Germany, Japan, US (where rail and metro exist), France etc for season tickets. All countries with similar or greater GDP per capita and average wages.

Is the train service as frequent? Does it start as early or finish as late? Are the trains as long? Are they as comfortable, with fully upholstered seats?
Just a few questions that need to be answered before a meaningful comparison can be made.

 

[Chrisgr31]

Is the train service as frequent? Does it start as early or finish as late? Are the trains as long? Are they as comfortable, with fully upholstered seats?
Just a few questions that need to be answered before a meaningful comparison can be made.

To those questions I would add:-

• Is the railway subsidised by government and if so how much
• What are the tax rates in that country

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Having just had a week in Germany - travelling around - I am always impressed by super clean trains / smooth track/ helpful staff and very affordable fares - their suburban trains trains roll into action at 0400 in even places like Dresden and Magdeburg. Minor stations can be basic however - but key stations are impressive.

I got the 2111 from West Hampstead to St Albans tonight - the station was unmanned and locked up (had to use the side gate to get in - over a large puddle in the semi/gloom) - no barrier staff at St Albans - and the train was a 4 car 319 - (just about coped) - coming only from St Pancras due to engineering operations. Hardly outstanding custoer service for optional travellers - but it was on time ..

 

[theageofthetra]

Ask any German what tax they pay compared to you and then make a meaningful comparison of fares. There is quite an exodus of German entrepreneurs to low tax countries

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Ask any German what tax they pay compared to you and then make a meaningful comparison of fares. There is quite an exodus of German entrepreneurs to low tax countries

Maybe so - but they get a much better deal in terms of overall "service" in all areas (not just transport) than we do. My son had a monthly commuting ticket from Breisach to Freiburg for about £2 a day. He now works in a good job locally where he can bike to work (or walk if he gets out of bed in time) - and is not motivated to pay over 5K a year for a commute to London on GTR at his income level. Ditto his brother. Both graduates I have to say.

It is just such an unpleasant experience - and costly.

 

[sarahj]

Sometimes we live in a dream world where every country runs trains which are cheap empty, seats for all, but the UK. All I can say is last October I was in Utrecht for a show and we went to Amsterdam for a trip on a Saturday. The 8 car, Double Deck train was more rammed than anything I've seen in the Uk except under massive delays and cancellations. Yet, Ns were running a normal service with no delays or anything. I was stood in the vestibule for the 40 min trip, nothing to hold on, rammed against others.

Dirty trains. We can clean a train spotless, but then within 15 mins (Vic to ECR), its a mess of coffee cups, free papers, stinking food. A country that had people that think its ok to put their feet on the seats, eat a banana, then leave the skin on the seat. then goes, the train was filthy. :-x

I was on a train today and one of the little lavs was blocked. I noticed it was out of order, and when I had time I took a look and fixed it, but before I did people had used it, topped up the bowl so it was now sloshing onto the floor. Did anyone think to say when I first went past checking tickets, 'oh the toilets blocked'. Nahh!!!!!!, they just kept using it, until I thought, oooo I remember the light was flashing out of order, best take a quick look. Woman came out as I was waiting to check. It's not flushing. Went in to a swimming pool. EWWWWWWWWWWWW:-x

 

[bramling]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35599189

Nothing new really, Thameslink has always been hated no matter who runs it - and regular users will be able to understand why, it's always unreliable and prone to delays as you've got double the chance of disruption because of the linkage between different networks.

So the DFT's wonderful idea is to spread the concept to new routes ...

 

[infobleep]

Sometimes we live in a dream world where every country runs trains which are cheap empty, seats for all, but the UK. All I can say is last October I was in Utrecht for a show and we went to Amsterdam for a trip on a Saturday. The 8 car, Double Deck train was more rammed than anything I've seen in the Uk except under massive delays and cancellations. Yet, Ns were running a normal service with no delays or anything. I was stood in the vestibule for the 40 min trip, nothing to hold on, rammed against others.

Dirty trains. We can clean a train spotless, but then within 15 mins (Vic to ECR), its a mess of coffee cups, free papers, stinking food. A country that had people that think its ok to put their feet on the seats, eat a banana, then leave the skin on the seat. then goes, the train was filthy. :-x

I was on a train today and one of the little lavs was blocked. I noticed it was out of order, and when I had time I took a look and fixed it, but before I did people had used it, topped up the bowl so it was now sloshing onto the floor. Did anyone think to say when I first went past checking tickets, 'oh the toilets blocked'. Nahh!!!!!!, they just kept using it, until I thought, oooo I remember the light was flashing out of order, best take a quick look. Woman came out as I was waiting to check. It's not flushing. Went in to a swimming pool. EWWWWWWWWWWWW:-x

One of the more pleasant and enjoyable aspects of your job I'm sure!

If the toilet doesn't work and the guard came passed I would say something. Perhaps the people who'd used it got off. I certainly wouldn't use it if someone else had and it was dirty.

However judging by the state of loos at festivals, perhaps I'm. In the minority. Lol.

I don't really go to festivals now because of that issue. Shame as I love lice music.

 

[SaveECRewards]

My view of the survey was it was pretty meaningless. Commuters have different expectations and experiences than leisure travellers.

As someone who has travelled on most these operators (ATW and Merseyrail are the ones I've not used) and I definitely think VTEC deserved a top three place.

What was really bad though was Virgin tried to spin the results. They never linked to the survey (so people could make up their own mind) but were happy to say VTWC (4th place) and VTEC (6th place) were the top rated franchised long distance operators in the Which? survey. Of course the top two were long distance but open access, but they're direct competitors with VTEC so it's obvious they were trying to mislead and steal the limelight from Grand Central.

VT did OK in the survey. They should have just not bothered mentioning it rather than trying to spin in their favour.

Here's the press release.

Here's the article on virgin.com (notice no link to the actual survey)

 

[southern442]

Here's the article on virgin.com (notice no link to the actual survey)

I had no idea they took over the East Coast Mainline rout!

I do agree with you though, the whole news page is (obviously) a huge advert for Virgin, and it's really sneaky that they didn't link to the survey so that nobody would be bothered to check it.

 

[SaveECRewards]

I had no idea they took over the East Coast Mainline rout!

I do agree with you though, the whole news page is (obviously) a huge advert for Virgin, and it's really sneaky that they didn't link to the survey so that nobody would be bothered to check it.

Yeah, they still haven't fixed that typo! I can't criticise that though, due to the amount of typos I make too (I think the 6 month contract I had at The Guardian rubbed off on me)