Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[southern442]

Nope, heard it from one of the regional driver managers, so fair chance there is some substance. No 230s for the south west

Why are certain areas of the country being ruled out for class 230 use even though they haven't even finished the prototype? Do the DfT and TOC's just really really hate them? Personally I see no problem whatsoever with them being used down south, even if it is just a few to get rid of the pacers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why are certain areas of the country being ruled out for class 230 use even though they haven't even finished the prototype? Do the DfT and TOC's just really really hate them? Personally I see no problem whatsoever with them being used down south, even if it is just a few to get rid of the pacers.

Indeed, as I've said many times I think they'd be fine for the Marston Vale, Cov-Nuneaton - and indeed the Stourbridge branch if at any point the rubber band on the PPM irretrievably snaps.

They'd also be fine for Greenford if it is to become a shuttle, for Windsor if it ends up not being wired, and so on.

 

[The Ham]

Personally I think that no new franchises will have them, but a few years in will then take one or two on to provide extra capacity, only for them to be replaced when the franchise is renewed and then them be used elsewhere.

New units maybe comparable in cost when there are enough being ordered, however if a TOC only needs a few extra units then a new order isn't go to be quite so good value.

 

[SPADTrap]

Are these not just a 'mk2' pacer sort of idea? Have we learned nothing from that experience and idea of trains on the cheap? :roll:

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Personally I think that no new franchises will have them, but a few years in will then take one or two on to provide extra capacity, only for them to be replaced when the franchise is renewed and then them be used elsewhere.

New units maybe comparable in cost when there are enough being ordered, however if a TOC only needs a few extra units then a new order isn't go to be quite so good value.

I am sure that in the preliminary discussions that were held by Vivarail and its American backers, the premise would have been for the purchase of the quite large numbers of carriages that they were successful in bidding for and the bulk sales of these Class 230 units afterwards to interested TOC .

Sales of "one or two" as stated in your posting would not make any financial success of the project, with the employment of staff in mind that were envisaged with bulk sales in mind.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are these not just a 'mk2' pacer sort of idea? Have we learned nothing from that experience and idea of trains on the cheap? :roll:

I suppose they are in the sense of being a low cost solution, but without the key flaws of the Pacers (rigid wheelbase, draughty bus doors, step entrance...).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Are these not just a 'mk2' pacer sort of idea? Have we learned nothing from that experience and idea of trains on the cheap? :roll:

The problem with Pacers is the lack of bogies. I can't really see another *significant* design flaw that makes the concept non-viable.

 

[bramling]

Are these not just a 'mk2' pacer sort of idea? Have we learned nothing from that experience and idea of trains on the cheap? :roll:

The difference being that D stock was not built on the cheap, throughout its life it has generally proved to be a robust and reliable train.

Obviously the conversion process has its challenges, however as long as the conversions are given a decent interior then I don't see any major issue from the passenger point of view.

 

[irish_rail]

Was that expressed by the driver with delight or sadness?

The D78 driver cabin appears to be a touch more comfortable than the Pacer.

Doesn't concern me, i'm predominantly driving HSTs!

Just get angry when I hear that apparently the 230s will not be considered for franchises in the north, yet they are seen as fit for the south west. No wonder the economy of this area has gone to pot, whilst the north moves from strength to strength....

 

[Bletchleyite]

Just get angry when I hear that apparently the 230s will not be considered for franchises in the north, yet they are seen as fit for the south west. No wonder the economy of this area has gone to pot, whilst the north moves from strength to strength....

Regional rivalry/envy is no sound reason to make train purchasing decisions.

 

[SPADTrap]

I suppose they are in the sense of being a low cost solution, but without the key flaws of the Pacers (rigid wheelbase, draughty bus doors, step entrance...).

True!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The problem with Pacers is the lack of bogies. I can't really see another *significant* design flaw that makes the concept non-viable.

It isn't non-viable but that doesn't stop the complaints.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The difference being that D stock was not built on the cheap, throughout its life it has generally proved to be a robust and reliable train.

Obviously the conversion process has its challenges, however as long as the conversions are given a decent interior then I don't see any major issue from the passenger point of view.

As an underground unit perhaps, but for the mainline they're certainly 'on the cheap'.

 

[DelW]

Why are certain areas of the country being ruled out for class 230 use even though they haven't even finished the prototype? Do the DfT and TOC's just really really hate them? Personally I see no problem whatsoever with them being used down south, even if it is just a few to get rid of the pacers.

Lines like the Heart of Wales are desperate for additional stock to fill in some of the 4 - 5 hour gaps between trains. Surely a Vivarail 230 would be quite suitable for a line with maximum speeds around 45 - 60 mph, when the alternative (if any) is a crowded class 153 running as a single car? It seems the politically inspired "No London cast-offs wanted here" may have scuppered a potentially worthwhile improvement on such lines.

Are these not just a 'mk2' pacer sort of idea? Have we learned nothing from that experience and idea of trains on the cheap? :roll:

Even Pacers were / are better than no train at all, which was the only other option when they were built.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed. The Conwy Valley is another viable option.

 

[northwichcat]

Even Pacers were / are better than no train at all, which was the only other option when they were built.

Really? 210s were considered for Greater Manchester, while some of the routes Pacers were intended for (in the South West) got Sprinters instead because they were too curvy for Pacers. I think really the Northern PTEs got the short straw and had the cheaper option forced on them (a mix of Pacers and Sprinters) while Centro were lucky and just got Sprinters. Then in the 00s Centro got lucky again and got new Turbostars so most of the West Midlands Sprinters could be cascaded to provide extra capacity in the North and South West.

 

[The Ham]

I am sure that in the preliminary discussions that were held by Vivarail and its American backers, the premise would have been for the purchase of the quite large numbers of carriages that they were successful in bidding for and the bulk sales of these Class 230 units afterwards to interested TOC .

Sales of "one or two" as stated in your posting would not make any financial success of the project, with the employment of staff in mind that were envisaged with bulk sales in mind.

Fair point, however I do think that they are more useful as a mid franchise option to increase capacity rather than being for a new franchise. Unless the new franchise only requires (say) up to 30 units, where a new order could be prohibitively expensive.

 

[Jonny]

Why are certain areas of the country being ruled out for class 230 use even though they haven't even finished the prototype? Do the DfT and TOC's just really really hate them? Personally I see no problem whatsoever with them being used down south, even if it is just a few to get rid of the pacers.

I understand that it's due to some EU rule

 

[krus_aragon]

Indeed. The Conwy Valley is another viable option.

*Considers the aptness of an ex-underground train going through the tunnel to Blaenau Ffestiniog...*

 

[northwichcat]

*Considers the aptness of an ex-underground train going through the tunnel to Blaenau Ffestiniog...*

Where ever tunnels exist it's worth remembering the D78s are wider than all existing DMUs so there could be clearance issues.

 

[Domh245]

Why are certain areas of the country being ruled out for class 230 use even though they haven't even finished the prototype? Do the DfT and TOC's just really really hate them? Personally I see no problem whatsoever with them being used down south, even if it is just a few to get rid of the pacers.

The single doors aren't wide enough for passengers in the north, what with the chips on their shoulders and all.

 

[A0]

Are these not just a 'mk2' pacer sort of idea? Have we learned nothing from that experience and idea of trains on the cheap? :roll:

No - I don't think it is a Mk2 Pacer idea.

The D trains were designed as heavy use units - given LU made the A60s / A62s last well over 50 years, it's reasonable to assume the D78s were designed to a similar standard. The only reason LU withdrew the D78s was because they have decided to move to standardise the units in use across the network to two i.e. one 'full size' unit for the sub-surface routes, which you now see on the Met, Circle and District lines and one for the 'deep level' routes.

All that's now being done is to change the power source i.e. as there won't be 3rd / 4th rail put a diesel engine in to act as a generator.

If anything the D train project is probably closer to a Sprinter or the class 210.

Whereas the Pacers are effectively bus derived bodies on a wagon chassis with fixed axles and traditional mechanical transmission. Very different indeed.

 

[furnessvale]

The single doors aren't wide enough for passengers in the north, what with the chips on their shoulders and all.

I believe the Pacers are to be refurbished after withdrawal from the north and sent south for services on the Southern.

Chips anyone?

 

[LowLevel]

Really? 210s were considered for Greater Manchester, while some of the routes Pacers were intended for (in the South West) got Sprinters instead because they were too curvy for Pacers. I think really the Northern PTEs got the short straw and had the cheaper option forced on them (a mix of Pacers and Sprinters) while Centro were lucky and just got Sprinters. Then in the 00s Centro got lucky again and got new Turbostars so most of the West Midlands Sprinters could be cascaded to provide extra capacity in the North and South West.

Centro didn't get lucky in terms of getting Sprinters instead of Pacers - it just refused to pay anything for any Pacers. The other PTEs may have got the same result with a bit more brinkmanship.

 

[SPADTrap]

I believe the Pacers are to be refurbished after withdrawal from the north and sent south for services on the Southern.

Chips anyone?

Pending their D train replacement!

Two large please

 

[Bletchleyite]

Centro didn't get lucky in terms of getting Sprinters instead of Pacers - it just refused to pay anything for any Pacers. The other PTEs may have got the same result with a bit more brinkmanship.

The last time GMPTE (as was) refused to pay for something to do with rail services, its logo was just removed from all the trains and BR just said "well, get stuffed, then". (Remember the "AirXpress" logos that were stuck over the Ms on just about all the Manchester area NWRR fleet?)

 

[northwichcat]

The last time GMPTE (as was) refused to pay for something to do with rail services, its logo was just removed from all the trains and BR just said "well, get stuffed, then". (Remember the "AirXpress" logos that were stuck over the Ms on just about all the Manchester area NWRR fleet?)

I would have thought the most recent occasion would be when the Oldham Loop closed for Metrolink conversion and they didn't want to pay to strengthen Calder Vale services, despite the majority of Oldham Loop passengers using those services opposed to the bus they were providing all the way to Manchester. That resulted in 5 x 142s being taken out-of-service until GMPTE/TfGM backtracked.

 

[sprinterguy]

Really? 210s were considered for Greater Manchester, while some of the routes Pacers were intended for (in the South West) got Sprinters instead because they were too curvy for Pacers. I think really the Northern PTEs got the short straw and had the cheaper option forced on them (a mix of Pacers and Sprinters) while Centro were lucky and just got Sprinters. Then in the 00s Centro got lucky again and got new Turbostars so most of the West Midlands Sprinters could be cascaded to provide extra capacity in the North and South West.

Remember, though, that the Centro sponsored 150s were received second hand (though refreshed and repainted) in the early nineties, as a result of them being displaced by new class 158s on Central England regional routes. Their slam door DMUs had to hang on longer in squadron service when many northern local services had already been modernised with brand new Pacer and Sprinter units (granted, a number of 101s survived into the 21st century in the North West).

From what I recall, at least some of the South West branches had to return to operation by slam door DMUs, after the unsuccessful "Skippers" were ousted from the region, before sufficient class 153 units had been converted to operate the services.

As for the subsequent replacement of those Centro area (although I think that PTE financial support for local heavy rail services is much diminished compared to BR days?) 150s with new class 172s, they did get lucky there, based on the policies of the prevailing franchisee. Around the turn of the millennium, Northern Spirit proposed the introduction of Turbostar Traveller units, and, around the time the 172s were being introduced with London Midland, Northern were toying with the idea of ordering cheap new units from CRSE, but obviously in both instances the opportunity was missed.

 

[Camden]

Remember, though, that the Centro sponsored 150s were received second hand (though refreshed and repainted) in the early nineties, as a result of them being displaced by new class 158s on Central England regional routes.

In that case how might you term second hand 150s, displaced from Centro, turning up on Northern Rail only a few years ago? Third hand?

Getting off the train from London I recall seeing one parked up at the adjacent platform at Liverpool Lime Street running a service to Manchester or Warrington, still in Centro livery!

 

[northwichcat]

In that case how might you term second hand 150s, displaced from Centro, turning up on Northern Rail only a few years ago? Third hand?

Getting off the train from London I recall seeing one parked up at the adjacent platform at Liverpool Lime Street running a service to Manchester or Warrington, still in Centro livery!

I've not seen a Centro livered 150 for years now. If you mean recently are you sure it wasn't one in Northern livery with a light blue 'Welcome to Yorkshire' vinyl over the top?

If the ex-LM 150s are third hand then surely the ex-ATN ones operating in the North West are as well considering they were originally from South Wales (apart from 1 Scottish one) and were transferred to ATN, with Northern moving them to the former FNW area in exchange for the ex-FNW 158s.

 

[Bantamzen]

Doesn't concern me, i'm predominantly driving HSTs!

Just get angry when I hear that apparently the 230s will not be considered for franchises in the north, yet they are seen as fit for the south west. No wonder the economy of this area has gone to pot, whilst the north moves from strength to strength....

I don’t think it’s a case that the 230s were not considered for the North, it’s almost certain that all bidders would have considered them. However with Arriva’s winning bid it probably became apparent that the 230s could do little more than replace some of the Pacers, and that new stock would have to be ordered anyway not only to replace the remaining Pacers but also provide the increase in capacity they were committing to, as well as provide the Northern Connect services that are planned. So rather than buying a mix of new build and 230s along with the planned cascades, they simply opted for new builds and cascades, probably negotiating a better price for the new builds (and possibly leaving the door open for further orders).

What you also have to remember about the order with CAF is that it is a mixture of DMUs & EMUs, built to similar specs but with the obvious different traction types. This will make it easier for both builder and customer, especially with maintenance / training as there will doubtless be some similarities in the unit builds, on-board systems etc.

But most of all, whilst there might be some routes where 230s could operate, many Northern diagrams see units on various types of routes from stretches of low speed branches to sections of high speed main, and everything else in between. Northern units can find themselves on almost any route at any time, especially during periods of disruption. Given that a large number of new routes will become Northern Connect under Arriva, I suspect one motivation for not ordering the 230s was that there might be a risk that one of these might end up have to be utilised in place of a regular Connect unit. By opting for new builds, as the Pacer stock is withdrawn the worst possible scenarios for these routes would be 150s, or more likely 153/155/156/158s (some of which will be in use anyway).

Of course none of this means that they are more or less suitable for the SWT branches. That will be up to the franchise holder to determine. But as far as the North’s problems goes, the 230s were never really more than a short term sticking plaster solution. Sooner or later they would either have to be life-extended, or withdrawn to be replaced with new builds.

 

[The Ham]

I believe the Pacers are to be refurbished after withdrawal from the north and sent south for services on the Southern.

Chips anyone?

One of the problems with being on electrified lines is that basically there needs to be enough passengers to justify a 4 couch EMU (i.e over 100 passengers) to be used rather than it being used to strengthen already busy services, if that isn't the case then sorry no new service.

If Pacers allow new services to be started (which will attract more people to use that service than do at present, especially if the new service removes the need to change trains) because they can be run when there may only be (say) 50 passengers, then that can only be a good thing.

As such send away...

Can I have pie with my chips.