C2C New timetable

[AlanFry1]

So you are telling us that services on your local line is the worst in the country and the C2C timetable is the second worst. How does your local line have a worse service than the Mid-Cheshire Line, for example, or the Borderlands Line, or any line in south east London? Please explain.
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On second thoughts, don't bother. :roll:

On second thoughts, stop bullying because of your status .
1) Nobody uses the mid-chesire line. The 11:30 lst-enfield will carry all the customers as the line does in one day.
2) refer to 1)
3) South east london are getting improvements from thameslink and crossrail at abbey wood. We are being neglected.

 

[bb21]

On second thoughts, stop bullying because of your status .
1) Nobody uses the mid-chesire line. The 11:30 lst-enfield will carry all the customers as the line does in one day.
2) refer to 1)
3) South east london are getting improvements from thameslink and crossrail at abbey wood. We are being neglected.

I don't need to bully you. I am just interested in the rationale behind your arguments. You have to expect to be grilled on your claims on an open forum, same as I would expect mine, especially so if you are making outlandish claims that defy logic.

I am sure quite a few long-established forum members will disagree most vocally regarding your first claim, and I will just stop there.

 

[PHILIPE]

1) Nobody uses the mid-chesire line. The 11:30 lst-enfield will carry all the customers as the line does in one day.
2) refer to 1)
3) South east london are getting improvements from thameslink and crossrail at abbey wood. We are being neglected.

How do you know that nobody uses the Mid-Cheshire Line ? You should tell that to the people who have to stand day after day on a 2 Car Pacer in the peaks..

 

[ScotGG]

Thameslink does barely anything for SE London in terms of services. Almost all services benefit Southern routes not Southeastern. 2 or 4 an hour stopping at a few stations in SE London en route to Kent is about it, and London bridge works actually reduce capacity at terminals serving SE London - both Cannon Street and Charing Cross see train paths reduced.

Crossrail is great for the very north of SE London but compared to east and West London there's far fewer stations.

Not much good for those on the Hayes line, plus Orpington, Sidcup or Bexleyheath lines. Even getting from Sidcup to Abbey Wood / Woolwich is 60-90 mins in rush hour on a bus. The circular routes are infrequent and slow.

 

[greatkingrat]

Sure, although I did clearly state the White Hart Lane - Liverpool st timetable if you read what I had to say?

After years of neglect, trains are full throughout the day, and with 200,000 new homes to be built between silver street and bruce grove stations, numbers will surge into the millions - far more than now. Overcrowding is already a problem, with 90% of customers at whl having to wait 30-45 minutes to get on trains due to lack of avaliable space. We have been suffering greatly for years due to poor timetables and underinvestment. Many now have to travel vastly to the north such as edmonton, enfield and cheshunt to get on the train, not even the seat, to get on the train.
Shocking.

In 2014, only 18000 homes were built in the whole of London, so I think it rather unlikely that 200000 are going to be built in the vicinity of just one station.

 

[Class 170101]

In 2014, only 18000 homes were built in the whole of London, so I think it rather unlikely that 200000 are going to be built in the vicinity of just one station.

Isn't this area already mostly built up anyway? Can't see where the space for 200,000 homes is coming from, even if they were all flats.

 

[MikeWh]

Even getting from Sidcup to Abbey Wood / Woolwich is 60-90 mins in rush hour on a bus. The circular routes are infrequent and slow.

The circular routes are infrequent - well every 30 minutes isn't that bad. Might need to start a little earlier if that way becomes more popular.

and slow? - well 25 minutes to Abbey Wood and 30 to Woolwich Arsenal is a damn sight quicker than 60-90 minutes on the bus.

 

[jon0844]

In 2014, only 18000 homes were built in the whole of London, so I think it rather unlikely that 200000 are going to be built in the vicinity of just one station.

I did laugh when reading that. I'd assume the number would be nearer 2000 and even that would be optimistic. Even if permission was granted, developers are in no real rush to build so would go slowly anyway so as to maintain house prices (and profits).

There are grand plans near Angel Road and the surrounds but that's a project over many, many years. It's also on the other line.

 

[ScotGG]

The circular routes are infrequent - well every 30 minutes isn't that bad. Might need to start a little earlier if that way becomes more popular.

and slow? - well 25 minutes to Abbey Wood and 30 to Woolwich Arsenal is a damn sight quicker than 60-90 minutes on the bus.

They often cancel them if running just 5-10 mins late on one stretch of the loop to ensure it makes up time when back at London Bridge, leaving another 30 mins wait. Two cancellations in a row isn't unusual. You really can't rely on the circulars.

So if going to the City or other main centres of employment I'm pretty certain most people will continue going to central from their local station then travelling from there on a tube. I really doubt many on other lines will bother taking a bus or circular train to catch Crossrail at Abbey Wood or Woolwich. It's too unreliable and slow.

 

[AlanFry1]

Isn't this area already mostly built up anyway? Can't see where the space for 200,000 homes is coming from, even if they were all flats.

You'd be surprised. As part of the NDP, 200,000 homes are being built in an area sf (miles) 2x3 to the east at tottenham hale and northumberland park.

Almost all of the homes are being demolished, and the unlucky few will be moved to areas like hornsey and stoke newington, enfield etc.

 

[Essexman]

C2C have listened to their customers and from today a lot of peak hour trains are having either their Barking or West Ham stops taken out.

 

[Tetchytyke]

C2C have listened to their customers and from today a lot of peak hour trains are having either their Barking or West Ham stops taken out.

I think that's very sensible. Barking customers (customers from Barking? ) have the choice of two tube lines, so having C2C trains full of them is preventing passengers from further out getting on board.

Stopping at either Limehouse or West Ham is sensible given the connections to Docklands, but other than that really most (or at least more than half) peak C2C trains should be first stop Upminster. DafT dropped a clanger (I know, I'm as shocked as you are) in imposing the changes.

Having everything stop at Barking is the equivalent of having everything- even the fast trains to Northampton- stop at Harrow and Wealdstone and Watford Junction.

 

[87015]

DafT dropped a clanger (I know, I'm as shocked as you are) in imposing the changes..

NX Bid team idea for everything to stop...

 

[Sleepy]

NX Bid team idea for everything to stop...

So does the NX bid for Greater Anglia suggest everything calling at Romford !! (good ORCATS raid on Tfl Rail ?)

 

[Stats]

C2C have listened to their customers and from today a lot of peak hour trains are having either their Barking or West Ham stops taken out.

I wouldn't call 7 services not stopping at Barking in the morning and 7 services not stopping at West Ham in the evening a lot. It's less than one-quarter of their peak service.

 

[Alfie1014]

NX Bid team idea for everything to stop...

That is correct the franchise 'spec' was for bidders to plan to manage existing crowding and how to cope with growth in the future. NX's bid manages this in the early years by timetable alterations and increasing capacity of some of the fleet by taking seats out and providing more standing space with additional new trains coming on stream in 2019.

To be fair such a 'low-cost' option was always going to be a big ask and does seems to be skewed towards the London end, though you get to a point timetabling wise where the only option is to stop everything everywhere otherwise you'll just have trains backing up on the two track approach to London.

That said I have sympathy for the users as vertially all platforms were lengthened to 12 cars during the CP4 funding round at great expense and on the Tilbury loop a train of that length has never run in service as the extra trains that were hoped to come ended up being diverted elsewhere, (FCC and AGA), for their HLOS schemes.

And NX (or indeed any other bidders) wont be suggesting all trains call at Romford for the East Anglia franchise as the spec states that none will call post Crossrail, (presumablly to keep the main lines clear for fast trains between Stratford and Shenfield and beyond).

 

[Class 170101]

That is correct the franchise 'spec' was for bidders to plan to manage existing crowding and how to cope with growth in the future. NX's bid manages this in the early years by timetable alterations and increasing capacity of some of the fleet by taking seats out and providing more standing space with additional new trains coming on stream in 2019.

To be fair such a 'low-cost' option was always going to be a big ask and does seems to be skewed towards the London end, though you get to a point timetabling wise where the only option is to stop everything everywhere otherwise you'll just have trains backing up on the two track approach to London.

That said I have sympathy for the users as vertially all platforms were lengthened to 12 cars during the CP4 funding round at great expense and on the Tilbury loop a train of that length has never run in service as the extra trains that were hoped to come ended up being diverted elsewhere, (FCC and AGA), for their HLOS schemes.

And NX (or indeed any other bidders) wont be suggesting all trains call at Romford for the East Anglia franchise as the spec states that none will call post Crossrail, (presumablly to keep the main lines clear for fast trains between Stratford and Shenfield and beyond).

The calling of c2c services at all stations between Barking and Fenchurch Street looks like a ORCRATs raid on TfL.

As for Romford services I still thought that was upto bidders. All I think it says is that they don't have to provide stops if they don't wish to do so post 2019.

 

[Alfie1014]

The calling of c2c services at all stations between Barking and Fenchurch Street looks like a ORCRATs raid on TfL.

As for Romford services I still thought that was upto bidders. All I think it says is that they don't have to provide stops if they don't wish to do so post 2019.

Except that in the Travelcard/Oyster area revenue is apportioned differently and ORCATS raiding the traditional sense cant happen. Whilst c2c will recieve some small benefit from stopping extra trains in the GLA area it isn't the main driver for changing the timetable and trying to provide more overall capacity and you get to a point between Barking and London on the two track railway with 20 trains per hour in the peak that you may well stop all, or almost all, at all stations. Otherwise you end up putting pathing time in the faster services negating the fact that they are limited stop as there is no opportunity to overtake.

In respect of Romford, opposite of this happens on the GEML on the Main Lines where in the peaks (almost) everything runs non-stop Stratford to Shenfield or beyond to maximise line capacity, which is a reason I think why the DfT (almost certainly spurred on by NR), haven't specified any stops at Romford off peak come 2019, post Crossrail operating a full service. Yes bidders could add stops but to me the clear message is for them to maximise capacity on the MLs for longer distance services. After all CR will be providing an enhance all day service.

 

[Class 170101]

In respect of Romford, opposite of this happens on the GEML on the Main Lines where in the peaks (almost) everything runs non-stop Stratford to Shenfield or beyond to maximise line capacity, which is a reason I think why the DfT (almost certainly spurred on by NR), haven't specified any stops at Romford off peak come 2019, post Crossrail operating a full service. Yes bidders could add stops but to me the clear message is for them to maximise capacity on the MLs for longer distance services. After all CR will be providing an enhance all day service.

Crossrail may be providing an enhanced service however the journey time saving can be significant. Something like 10 vice 23 minutes AGA versus Crossrail.

Peak times Romford cannot be served as it has only 8 car length platforms but peak trains are formed of 12 carriages. Off peak however few 12 car trains operate. There are also population links between Romford and Southend / north essex.

 

[bonzawe]

http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/travel-information/timetables-trains/timetable-adjustments/?utm_medium=SocialSignIn&utm_source=Twitter

Further changes to timetable from the 4 January

 

[87015]

Kneejerk aside, that is a terribly written page...

 

[LLivery]

Does West Horndon really need 4tph on Saturdays? Its half that every other day...

 

[Sleepy]

New timetable still making waves ? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-35315338?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

 

[chris11256]

c2c made headline news for ITV London this evening. Was a large protest at Fenchurch Street last night.

 

[Sleepy]

The local rag (Southend Echo) reported nearly 100 protesters attended ! Wow

 

[chris11256]

The local rag (Southend Echo) reported nearly 100 protesters attended ! Wow

Consider the main concourse of Fenchurch Street isn't actually that big.

I wasn't there anyway. My train was at 16:16, not prepared to wait around for two hours.

 

[racyrich]

Consider the main concourse of Fenchurch Street isn't actually that big.

I wasn't there anyway. My train was at 16:16, not prepared to wait around for two hours.

I missed it too, was on my usual 17.19. Except it was cancelled for the second time this week and started from Barking. Which at least it did - on Monday we made our way to Barking and then it was cancelled from there too. We all ended up on what was the 17.28 ex Fen St. I counted 25 people in the vestibule I just managed to get in. Many were left behind.

Anyway, as from Monday the 17.16 will also stop at Basildon so we'll be back to the same number of trains to get in that time window. I will however still have to get the 15 minute earlier train in the morning now that they are all all stations and take 6 minutes longer.
And I'm glad they're reducing further the number of trains stopping at both Barking and West Ham.

 

[47421]

http://www.basildonrecorder.co.uk/news/14374653.display/


looks like could be a major climb down coming on this:

VICTORY is in sight for campaigners fighting to get c2c to revert to its old timetable after the Government scrapped controversial stops at east London stations.

The National Express-owned rail operator launched its new timetable on Sunday, December 13 in a bid to cope with an increase in passenger numbers.

Part of the franchise agreement with the Department for Transport was a clause saying 95 per cent of trains had to stop at east London stations Barking, West Ham and Limehouse, an idea c2c originally proposed.

The Minister for Railways, Claire Perry, has now agreed to waive the clause.

It comes after months of complaints of over-crowded trains and slower journeys from fed-up commuters.

The news came to light in a letter from James Duddridge, Conservative MP for Rochford and Southend East, to a constituent.

He said: “This is the first positive step towards reversing the changes we are all so unhappy about.

“As I have said before, this matter remains firmly on my radar and I will continue to work towards changing these wholly unpopular and unwanted changes to our timetable.

“On a broader issue, I think we should be asking for all trains from Shoebury to be under an hour.”

c2c have yet to announce what the decision will mean to commuters, but it could lead to faster trains between south Essex and London Fenchurch Street, a particular benefit in the evening rush hour as east London passengers will not crowd trains bypassing those stops.

A spokeswoman for c2c said: "We've been having positive conversations with the Department for Transport and we look forward to making an announcement once these talks are concluded."

Mr Duddridge’s letter was sent to Richard Tanner, 59, who commuted daily from Southend East to London Fenchurch Street.

He said: “Ultimately it’s down to what c2c do with this now.
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“I have used the line for many years and it has never been this bad.

“Having spoken to a few people the only ones I can see that the current timetable is good for is those wanting a quick journey between Barking and West Ham – hopefully this means that will change.”

 

[IslandDweller]

The newspaper has not put much analysis into that report.
Just because the Minister will drop the 95% requirement does not equate to a return to the old timetable.

 

[chris11256]

I agree that a revert is unrealistic. However there does need to be a reduction in the number of trains that stop at both West Ham and barking. You have the situation at Fenchurch Street where sometimes people going to Basildon Benfleet or Southend can't get on the train, because it's overcrowded with people going to Barking.

I think that one of the main problems with the timetable as it stands is that c2c simply don't have enough stock to make it work. It still amazes me that c2c didn't realise that by stopping all trains at Barking and West Ham they would simply absorb district line passengers. They were genuinely shocked at the passenger increase between Barking and Fenchurch Street after the timetable came in