C2C New timetable

[Sleepy]

National Express making friends with C2C commuters with their new timetable I see : http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/14137259.Biggest_c2c_timetable_overhaul_for_a_decade/?ref=ar Hopefully it will go pear shaped and give dft something to think about with AGA bidding in play ! Didn't C2C have a nightmare with the new timetable a few years ago ?

 

[gazthomas]

Seems positive. Am I missing something?

 

[Mike395]

See the second half of the article and the majority of comments

 

[Sleepy]

Seems positive. Am I missing something?

Lots of negative comments left on Echo site. Seem to remember it went viral last
time !

 

[Dr Hoo]

Went to Fenchurch Street and asked for a copy of the new timetable.
"Certainly, Sir! Here you are." (Handed over booklet. )
Got onto train to Barking and took booklet out of pocket...
Expires this weekend.

 

[Essexman]

It hasn't gone down well in Upminster from where many journey times will be increased and there will be fewer peak hour seats - partly because almost all the Laindon starters are originating further east and partly because the new train interiors have more standing area but fewer seats.

The overcrowding between West Ham and Barking is mainly due to passengers from the Jubilee Line travelling one stop to Barking (and reverse). It's only a few minutes quicker than the District Line and with the wait for C2C I suspect often doesn't save any time over the tube.

 

[greatkingrat]

They are exaggerating somewhat with claims of 30 or 40 minutes being added to journeys,

 

[plcd1]

Wah wah wah. Stomp stomp stomp. :roll:

If you don't like the crowding then stop travelling. You can't expect a growing economy and a growing population to have no impact on commuter crowding and congestion. You can't magic trains out of nowhere but at least C2C are ordering more and will add capacity in 2-3 years. Better than many franchises and better than the tube can manage. Off peak on the Victoria Line even outside zone 1 is now like the rush hour used to be 5 years ago. Mad and there's little prospect of that getting any better.

The simple fact is that crowding on C2C will keep getting worse and worse and worse because a lot of development is planned on or near its route through East London. It won't be long before that develoment then moves on into Thurrock and Essex. Housing policies that displace people from the inner parts of London will simply exacerbate all of this.

The substantive answer is brand new capacity in and around the C2C / District Line corridor ideally linked into Docklands and possibly across to South London. Unfortunately for those Essex commuters there is no plan to add such capacity.

 

[chris11256]

I commute daily with c2c from Thorpe Bay. I've recently been having a word with fellow commuters *shock horror* and the main gripe is having every train stop at barking. The perception of the new timetable is that it's designed for people living in Greater London. Mainly the people that run from their District Line train at Barking. People fully understand all trains stopping at West Ham, as a large number of people works at Canary Warf.

There's no doubt that some people do benefit. People at Benfleet and Basildon for example will love the new Leigh starters.
For me the peak services into London aren't too bad, although evening peak is a bit worse. I travel home from Fenchurch street between 17:15 and 17:35 and there's a reduction in the number of Shoeburyness services. One at 17:16 and another at 17:32(or similar). I'm anticipating both of these services being quite crowded. Where as previously we had the 17:15. 17:20 and a 17:30 first stop Benfleet service.

From what I understand people on the Tilbury line are furious as they already get a poor ish service(or claim to). I've got a passenger panel meeting in early January and expect many annoyed members.

 

[plcd1]

I commute daily with c2c from Thorpe Bay. I've recently been having a word with fellow commuters *shock horror* and the main gripe is having every train stop at barking. The perception of the new timetable is that it's designed for people living in Greater London. Mainly the people that run from their District Line train at Barking. People fully understand all trains stopping at West Ham, as a large number of people works at Canary Warf.

There's no doubt that some people do benefit. People at Benfleet and Basildon for example will love the new Leigh starters.
For me the peak services into London aren't too bad, although evening peak is a bit worse. I travel home from Fenchurch street between 17:15 and 17:35 and there's a reduction in the number of Shoeburyness services. One at 17:16 and another at 17:32(or similar). I'm anticipating both of these services being quite crowded. Where as previously we had the 17:15. 17:20 and a 17:30 first stop Benfleet service.

From what I understand people on the Tilbury line are furious as they already get a poor ish service(or claim to). I've got a passenger panel meeting in early January and expect many annoyed members.

No quibbles with any of the above. There is a wider question here though. Is the C2C route just for people who live outside London or does it have any function within Greater London? I assume, from the various comments, that Essex residents don't give a damn about Greater London residents and their travel needs and the understandable desire that people (nearly) always want the fastest train. The problem is that C2C cannot unilaterally ignore the patronage in Greater London given the line's use as an "express" District Line is extremely well established. Boroughs like Barking and Dagenham have seen massive growth in their population due to cheaper housing stock plus some development (due to grow hugely). Therefore more and more people are turning up to use all rail services. It is not practical to suddenly non stop C2C trains at Barking.

My limited use of C2C has generally been very positive - trains run on time and seem well presented. However the new franchise is not about any substantive development to deliver a capacity step change. There will be some improvement to train lengths but there's no great infrastructure enhancement. This ignores what is going on - can you imagine how horrified C2C users will be when 4 car GOBLIN trains are depositing full loads of people from Barking Riverside who then want to squeeze on to Fenchurch St services? The users from Thurrock are going to howl when Beam Park station is built and hundreds more commuters want to squeeze onto Grays services.

Perhaps there needs to be a further debate about the purpose of the C2C route and some "facing of reality" for everyone as to what is going to happen and what C2C can realistically do to cope with pressures that will emerge in less than 10 years?

 

[chris11256]

No quibbles with any of the above. There is a wider question here though. Is the C2C route just for people who live outside London or does it have any function within Greater London? I assume, from the various comments, that Essex residents don't give a damn about Greater London residents and their travel needs and the understandable desire that people (nearly) always want the fastest train. The problem is that C2C cannot unilaterally ignore the patronage in Greater London given the line's use as an "express" District Line is extremely well established. Boroughs like Barking and Dagenham have seen massive growth in their population due to cheaper housing stock plus some development (due to grow hugely). Therefore more and more people are turning up to use all rail services. It is not practical to suddenly non stop C2C trains at Barking.

My limited use of C2C has generally been very positive - trains run on time and seem well presented. However the new franchise is not about any substantive development to deliver a capacity step change. There will be some improvement to train lengths but there's no great infrastructure enhancement. This ignores what is going on - can you imagine how horrified C2C users will be when 4 car GOBLIN trains are depositing full loads of people from Barking Riverside who then want to squeeze on to Fenchurch St services? The users from Thurrock are going to howl when Beam Park station is built and hundreds more commuters want to squeeze onto Grays services.

Perhaps there needs to be a further debate about the purpose of the C2C route and some "facing of reality" for everyone as to what is going to happen and what C2C can realistically do to cope with pressures that will emerge in less than 10 years?

I can't help but wonder whether there should be more than 19 new trains. Currently c2c run very few 12 carriage peak services. There's 4 on the mainline and none via Tilbury. Although perhaps a tad unrealistic making more peak service 12 carriages would be an effective capacity boost.

 

[306024]

New timetables usually attract a load of negative comment. Those that gain rarely speak up, but for those that lose the end of the world is nigh.

The important thing is to allow time for passengers work out what is best for them over the first few weeks of the timetable. Trouble is with Christmas just around the corner travel patterns don't settle down until well into the new year.

 

[iphone76]

I'm just looking at the new timetable and cannot believe how many 4 carriage trains are being used during the peak periods. Places like Purfleet and Rainham getting a 4 carriage train every 15 minutes in the morning. Then in the evening running then back via Upminster and Ockendon. No wonder they have removed seats from some of the carriages!

I know AGA get some stick, but at least they do run 12 carriage trains on all their Southend peak trains.

 

[Class 170101]

I can't help but wonder whether there should be more than 19 new trains. Currently c2c run very few 12 carriage peak services. There's 4 on the mainline and none via Tilbury. Although perhaps a tad unrealistic making more peak service 12 carriages would be an effective capacity boost.

Do 12 car trains still have to be run with a guard though?

If so until that goes don't hold your breath.

 

[colchesterken]

I think it is a shame that journey times to good old Saufend are so long with both operators
In the 50s LTS ran a fast from Fenchurch st on the hour first stop Benfleet
Now an off peak fish and chip run is an hours ride for less than 40 miles

 

[chris11256]

Do 12 car trains still have to be run with a guard though?

If so until that goes don't hold your breath.

12 carriage services are going DOO in the new year. c2c have been going round installing new monitors at stations.

 

[Panupreset]

Creatures of habit are commuters.....

I wonder how much of those change was required by DofT when the franchise was awarded? The jist of it seems to be to allow Leigh, Benfleet & Basildon passengers to finally get a seat in the mornings. Peak 4 car trains don't work though! Be interested to know how the 1701 from Fenchuurch Street goes tonight!

I do however think the Barking/West Ham thing is wrong though. Those people live in the TFL area and have tube and bus to get around. Those using C2C shouldn't have their journey times and loading increased so people in the London area can save a 3 or 4 minutes. Be interesting to see if line congestion becomes an issue in that area....

For Southend commuters the choice is pay less for C2C for newish air conditioned trains with good punctuality but suffer overcrowding, or pay more to use AGA on old trains with poorer punctuality but more chance of a seat.

Weekend trains running to Stratford & Liverpool Street is interesting. Foot in the door before crossrail starts to get access to it. Eventually Fenchurch Street could become a peak time only station once crosssrail goes underground in a couple of years.

 

[chris11256]

From what I've read on twitter this morning there were regular queues of trains trying to get into Fenchurch Street.

Some of the Leigh starter trains were full and standing upon leaving, those at Benfleet had no chance of getting a seat.

 

[Panupreset]

Wonder if a whole load of Chalkwell & Westcliff passengers made their way to Leigh in the knowledge they are more likely to get a seat?

C2C love their PPM figures, wonder how they will react if punctuality takes a hit as a result of all this?

 

[chris11256]

There's already a post on the c2c website boasting of 90% on time for peak this morning.

http://www.c2c-online.co.uk/travel-information/timetables-trains/new-timetable-review-of-the-first-am-peak/?utm_medium=SocialSignIn&utm_source=Twitter

 

[Class 170101]

But several of their trains exceeded three minutes late arrival at destination. Pay up time me thinks.

 

[chris11256]

But several of their trains exceeded three minutes late arrival at destination. Pay up time me thinks.

The evening peak wasn't very good. Seemed to be mass confusion at fenchurch street. Loads of services came in as 8 carriages but then split in two. Many people ended up on the wrong train. A guy on my train wanted Basildon and ended up in Chalkwell. I think the platform information screens could be a bit better.

There were also delays because of congestion at West Ham. Not sure whether they meant too many people on platform or too many trains.

 

[sjoram]

2B59 0559 LES-FST this morning was fine and not much different to the former 0602.

This evening I was on 1B90 1758 FST-LES and that was full and standing before leaving FST. Crawled all the way to UPM presumably running at caution behind the service via OCK in front of us.

6L arriving at BEF followed by what appeared to be a door fault adding an extra 4 minutes delay finally arriving at LES 10L.

I generally don't have a set train home and can pass through FST anything between 1500 & 1900. Whilst acknowledging it was the first day of the weekday new TT, it was probably the most chaotic I have seen it outside of major disruption.

I had an invite over the weekend from one of the planning team to make a visit which I intend to do in the New Year.

 

[AlanFry1]

Second worst timetable in the country after the poor white hart lane - Liverpool st timetable.

I wonder what the performance will be for C2C? Down I suspect, lack of carriages on some services will increase hold time.

 

[theironroad]

Do 12 car trains still have to be run with a guard though?

If so until that goes don't hold your breath.

Well I got on the 1631 from Leigh to fen church today and it started at Leigh as a 12 car and there was a guard.

 

[bb21]

Second worst timetable in the country after the poor white hart lane - Liverpool st timetable.

I wonder what the performance will be for C2C? Down I suspect, lack of carriages on some services will increase hold time.

Second worst? Can you elaborate?

 

[306024]

The evening peak wasn't very good. Seemed to be mass confusion at fenchurch street. Loads of services came in as 8 carriages but then split in two. Many people ended up on the wrong train. A guy on my train wanted Basildon and ended up in Chalkwell. I think the platform information screens could be a bit better.

There were also delays because of congestion at West Ham. Not sure whether they meant too many people on platform or too many trains.

Loads of services? Really?

Impossible to reach any conclusions after just one days operation. Hopefully there will be no knee jerk reactions.

Second worst timetable in the country after the poor white hart lane - Liverpool st timetable.

We're all on tenterhooks awaiting your detailed analysis

 

[Bald Rick]

Second worst timetable in the country after the poor white hart lane - Liverpool st timetable.

The good folk of Reddish South and Denton want to see the evidence...

 

[AlanFry1]

Second worst? Can you elaborate?

Sure, although I did clearly state the White Hart Lane - Liverpool st timetable if you read what I had to say?

After years of neglect, trains are full throughout the day, and with 200,000 new homes to be built between silver street and bruce grove stations, numbers will surge into the millions - far more than now. Overcrowding is already a problem, with 90% of customers at whl having to wait 30-45 minutes to get on trains due to lack of avaliable space. We have been suffering greatly for years due to poor timetables and underinvestment. Many now have to travel vastly to the north such as edmonton, enfield and cheshunt to get on the train, not even the seat, to get on the train.
Shocking.

 

[bb21]

Sure, although I did clearly state the White Hart Lane - Liverpool st timetable if you read what I had to say?

After years of neglect, trains are full throughout the day, and with 200,000 new homes to be built between silver street and bruce grove stations, numbers will surge into the millions - far more than now. Overcrowding is already a problem, with 90% of customers at whl having to wait 30-45 minutes to get on trains due to lack of avaliable space. We have been suffering greatly for years due to poor timetables and underinvestment. Many now have to travel vastly to the north such as edmonton, enfield and cheshunt to get on the train, not even the seat, to get on the train.
Shocking.

So you are telling us that services on your local line is the worst in the country and the C2C timetable is the second worst. How does your local line have a worse service than the Mid-Cheshire Line, for example, or the Borderlands Line, or any line in south east London? Please explain.
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On second thoughts, don't bother. :roll: