Trade Union Bill passed

[TheKnightWho]

I've seen some fraud in some of the SU and college elections I've been involved with, usually by a student in a position of power (i.e. the returning officer or the comms officer). But any voting system has weakness: pencil marks can be rubbed out, pen marks can be changed to spoil a paper or, as happened in Witney last night, 70+ papers for the Labour candidate can be found "under a pile of Tory papers" whose discovery changed the result of the ballot.

I'd say electronic voting would be safer than the postal ballots we receive now as trade union members. After all, let's face it, TU elections have even less national importance or significance than an NUS election.

Much harder to do that with all sorts of people around than to do it electronically, though.
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I assume you have made a typing error with this statement, either that or you consider an NUS election to be more important than a TU election that cripples the entire countries train services, air traffic control, rubbish collection, lorry deliveries etc etc etc, I know students are rather important, to themselves even if to nobody else, but you perhaps need to get your realities of life into some sort of order

I'd much rather they be temporarily suspended than crippled through poor moral or from people leaving the industry in droves. Or would you rather this nightmare with Junior Doctors were repeated in lots of industries, because you'd rather blame it on the workers than those actually putting them in that position?

Then again, it's easy to parrot the Daily Mail

 

[ExRes]

I'd much rather they be temporarily suspended than crippled through poor moral or from people leaving the industry in droves. Or would you rather this nightmare with Junior Doctors were repeated in lots of industries, because you'd rather blame it on the workers than those actually putting them in that position?

Then again, it's easy to parrot the Daily Mail

Are you commenting on my post or somebody elses?

With or without the I should remind you, as I have mentioned before, that I don't read the Daily Mail so would find it rather difficult to parrot it

 

[TheKnightWho]

Are you commenting on my post or somebody elses?

With or without the I should remind you, as I have mentioned before, that I don't read the Daily Mail so would find it rather difficult to parrot it

Picking up on the most relevant points as usual, I see.

 

[ExRes]

Picking up on the most relevant points as usual, I see.

A little difficult for me to pick up on your 'relevant points' as you didn't make any

 

[TheKnightWho]

A little difficult for me to pick up on your 'relevant points' as you didn't make any

Well if it wasn't my second flippant one about the Daily Mail, it was quite clearly the first. Then again, arguing about semantics and pedantry seems to be your speciality, since you rarely have anything to back up what you say and prefer to attack your opposition on how they've said something instead of the substance.

 

[ExRes]

Well if it wasn't my second flippant one about the Daily Mail, it was quite clearly the first. Then again, arguing about semantics and pedantry seems to be your speciality, since you rarely have anything to back up what you say and prefer to attack your opposition on how they've said something instead of the substance.

"It was quite clearly the first", was it really?, perhaps I gave up at the point that you were unable to spell morale, or was it that I "would rather blame it on the workers" came from the cloudy depths of your imagination as relevant to me?

After having read a sample of your recent posts it would seem that "prefer to attack your opposition" would be rather more apt for you than me, you certainly have plenty of experience

As you choose to mention "anything to back up what you say", any chance of telling us where you got that information on the Alton Towers incident?, you were asked three times and conveniently failed to respond, you must have a source as you wouldn't post unsubstantiated claims, would you?, not like those you take to task for that very reason

Anyway, I must go now as I'm busy looking through my collection of union membership cards, 40 plus years as a "worker", fancy that and some would say I'm anti worker, I guess that deserves a

 

[TheKnightWho]

"It was quite clearly the first", was it really?, perhaps I gave up at the point that you were unable to spell morale, or was it that I "would rather blame it on the workers" came from the cloudy depths of your imagination as relevant to me?

After having read a sample of your recent posts it would seem that "prefer to attack your opposition" would be rather more apt for you than me, you certainly have plenty of experience

As you choose to mention "anything to back up what you say", any chance of telling us where you got that information on the Alton Towers incident?, you were asked three times and conveniently failed to respond, you must have a source as you wouldn't post unsubstantiated claims, would you?, not like those you take to task for that very reason

Anyway, I must go now as I'm busy looking through my collection of union membership cards, 40 plus years as a "worker", fancy that and some would say I'm anti worker, I guess that deserves a

That post can be summed up as "no you!" I'm also not sure a typo is relevant, but it very much is criticising someone on how they've said something instead of what they said, which is exactly what I've said you'd do. Clearly I must be too stupid to engage with someone to worldly as you though, right?

Frankly, it was exactly what I was expecting. No surprises that you failed to address anything.

And honestly, you can be a member of as many unions as you like, but it doesn't stop what you said boiling down to anti-union rhetoric that said nothing of substance.

EDIT: I also wasn't aware that not following up on something on a thread that I didn't even look at again was somehow indicative on my poor arguing skills. Clearly you scoured the board for whatever you could find though!

 

[SS4]

I assume you have made a typing error with this statement, either that or you consider an NUS election to be more important than a TU election that cripples the entire countries train services, air traffic control, rubbish collection, lorry deliveries etc etc etc, I know students are rather important, to themselves even if to nobody else, but you perhaps need to get your realities of life into some sort of order

Really? When was the last strike to cripple - in your own words - "the entire countries [sic]"

If I'm being kind the fuel strike of 2000 (technically a protest - something else May doesn't like)

Cut out the hyperbole although I accept your point about TU elections being more important that NUS ones

edit: Google defines cripple (verb) as:

1. cause (someone) to become unable to move or walk properly.
   "a crippling disease"
   synonyms: disable, paralyze, immobilize, make lame, incapacitate, handicap, leave someone a paraplegic/quadriplegic
   
2. 2. cause severe and disabling damage to (a machine).
   "over-lubrication might well lead to piston seizure, crippling the engine"
   
3. 3.cause a severe and almost insuperable problem for.
   synonyms: devastate, ruin, destroy, wipe out;

Number 3 is most opt in this case and just look at those synonyms. Ironically, it's closer to what the government has done to the unions

 

[Flying_Turtle]

No, a minimum of 50% of the electorate must vote. Out of the electorate (not just those who voted, everyone), a minimum of 40% of the electorate must have voted in favour of strike action. These are not the same thing, so it's not correct to add them together and state that you need 90% support for a strike. You don't. These are two separate criteria.

For a strike to be legal under this new act in these important services, you require a majority turnout and a high level of support. With a 60% turnout, you'd require at least 2/3 of the vote to be supportive of strike action.

What an undemocratic nonsense this is. Funny that the Conservatives (on the whole) staunchly oppose electoral reform when it applies to them :roll:

I was just asking as i didn t figure how it worked

 

[DaveHarries]

Hidden in with all the shenanigans about Corbyn...

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/trade-union-act-becomes-law



'Undemocratic' strikes? For them, that means any strike.

Good. I think that, on strike action, it should be a minimum of 50% both in terms of turnout and the vote in favour.

For what reason? Do you also think that MP's should have to meet the same voting threshold?

The comparison between an expression of political support in a general election with allowing a minority to, for example, shut down the London Underground is arguably a doubtful one.

Dave

 

[TheKnightWho]

The comparison between an expression of political support in a general election with allowing a minority to, for example, shut down the London Underground is arguably a doubtful one.

Yeah - MPs only represent you for 5 years! Clearly requires a lower mandate than whether or not the Tube goes down for a couple of days. :roll:

 

[GadgetMan]

So under this new ruling...

100 members get sent a ballot paper,
50 members return their paper,
Of those 39 (78%) vote for Strike 11 (22%) against.

The Strike can't be called. Sounds very democratic.

 

[SS4]

So under this new ruling...

100 members get sent a ballot paper,
50 members return their paper,
Of those 39 (78%) vote for Strike 11 (22%) against.

The Strike can't be called. Sounds very democratic.

That's the point. It's part of the Tories' ongoing campaign against workers

 

[me123]

So under this new ruling...

100 members get sent a ballot paper,
50 members return their paper,
Of those 39 (78%) vote for Strike 11 (22%) against.

The Strike can't be called. Sounds very democratic.

Meanwhile...

Government is elected with 36.9% of the vote.
Somehow has a majority of MPs thanks to our antiquated electoral system.
States it has a mandate to deliver its manifesto.
Attempts to significantly decrease pay and working conditions for junior doctors.
Deliberately manipulates statistics in order to achieve the above aim - an action for which a junior doctor would risk their place on the medical register (see Andrew Wakefield)
Junior doctors call a strike (supported by in excess of 75% of BMA members balloted, with 99% of returned ballots in support, so it more than meets the new criteria FWIW).
Junior doctors accused of trying to undermine democracy.

The Conservatives support democracy, but only when they agree with it.

 

[cjmillsnun]

*deleted*

 

[Tetchytyke]

I know students are rather important, to themselves even if to nobody else, but you perhaps need to get your realities of life into some sort of order

The NUS elections are of no significance.

Trade Union elections are of even less significance.

TU election that cripples the entire countries train services, air traffic control, rubbish collection, lorry deliveries etc etc etc

Oh dear.

 

[backontrack]

Meanwhile...

Government is elected with 36.9% of the vote.
Somehow has a majority of MPs thanks to our antiquated electoral system.
States it has a mandate to deliver its manifesto.
Attempts to significantly decrease pay and working conditions for junior doctors.
Deliberately manipulates statistics in order to achieve the above aim - an action for which a junior doctor would risk their place on the medical register (see Andrew Wakefield)
Junior doctors call a strike (supported by in excess of 75% of BMA members balloted, with 99% of returned ballots in support, so it more than meets the new criteria FWIW).
Junior doctors accused of trying to undermine democracy.

The Conservatives support democracy, but only when they agree with it.

Personally, despite the media focus on the junior doctors, I don't think that the onus is on them to decide what happens; I think that the focus should go on the politicians themselves. They have to resolve this situation. And we should get the good outcome, the right outcome - it's just how democracy is meant to work. The ball is in David Cameron's court; the doctors will (quite rightly) keep hitting it straight back to him until he can play the right shot.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Personally, despite the media focus on the junior doctors, I don't think that the onus is on them to decide what happens; I think that the focus should go on the politicians themselves. They have to resolve this situation. And we should get the good outcome, the right outcome - it's just how democracy is meant to work. The ball is in David Cameron's court; the doctors will (quite rightly) keep hitting it straight back to him until he can play the right shot.

You have the right to hold to your opinions upon the matters to which you refer but that does not give any credence to the actualities of a system where the state has a fairly monopolistic hand on health care in the NHS in comparison to the sector which offers private health care where disputes would only be between a company group and its staff.

To return to your point, democracy is multi-faceted and not that type of "democracy" supposedly operated by past and present communist regimes, one such example being the matter that led to the rise of Solidarnosc in Poland in the early 1980's in which the "democratic" Polish communist state brought in Martial Law from December 1981 to July 1983 in order that they hoped would suppress that movement, but which history proved to be a failure.

 

[DarloRich]

You have the right to hold to your opinions upon the matters to which you refer but that does not give any credence to the actualities of a system where the state has a fairly monopolistic hand on health care in the NHS in comparison to the sector which offers private health care where disputes would only be between a company group and its staff.

To back to your point, democracy is multi-faceted and not that type of "democracy" supposedly operated by past and present communist regimes, one such example being the matter that led to the rise of Solidarnosc in Poland in the early 1980's in which the "democratic" Polish communist state brought in Martial Law from December 1981 to July 1983 in order that they hoped would suppress that movement, but which history proved to be a failure.

Paul, histroically interesting and accurate as that statement is I am not sure what that has to do with the Trade Union Act?
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Personally, despite the media focus on the junior doctors, I don't think that the onus is on them to decide what happens; I think that the focus should go on the politicians themselves. They have to resolve this situation. And we should get the good outcome, the right outcome - it's just how democracy is meant to work. The ball is in David Cameron's court; the doctors will (quite rightly) keep hitting it straight back to him until he can play the right shot.

Politicians ( of an ysort) wont change their mind unless forced to. How should people object to changes which they feel are wrong or detrimental or just plainly bad? Your view seems to be Oliver twist based: Please Sir...........

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Interestingly on line voting for the Tory candidate for Mayor of London was perfectly acceptable but on line voting in a TU ballot is shockingly unsafe, apparently. .

Can I ask if on line voting for Sadiq Khan, the Labour Party candidate for Mayor of London in the London mayoral elections was also perfectly acceptable. I only ask as you only make mention of the "Tory" candidate.

Sorry for being so late to this thread, but for the first week in May, we were on holiday in West Sussex, where a "wifely embargo" on internet use was strictly enforced...

 

[DarloRich]

Can I ask if on line voting for Sadiq Khan, the Labour Party candidate for Mayor of London in the London mayoral elections was also perfectly acceptable. I only ask as you only make mention of the "Tory" candidate.

I am not sure if there WAS online voting to select the Labour candidate but if there was the point still stands!

Sorry for being so late to this thread, but for the first week in May, we were on holiday in West Sussex, where a "wifely embargo" on internet use was strictly enforced...

You should strike!

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Meanwhile...Government is elected with 36.9% of the vote.
Somehow has a majority of MPs thanks to our antiquated electoral system.
States it has a mandate to deliver its manifesto.

That 36.9% of the vote you refer to equates to 11,334,576 votes

The Labour Party had 30.4% of the vote. That equates to 9,347,304 votes.

A difference of 1,987,172 votes between those two political parties has far more emphasis when viewed numerically.

I am sure that when the Labour Party was elected as the Government in past days, they would have no qualms about stating that they too had a mandate to deliver its policies that were in its manifesto. Otherwise, why bother with having a manifesto, in which any political party can let the electorate know how they stand on issues prior to a General Election. A manifesto such as this is quite a democratic matter.

 

[SS4]

That 36.9% of the vote you refer to equates to 11,334,576 votes

The Labour Party had 30.4% of the vote. That equates to 9,347,304 votes.

A difference of 1,987,172 votes between those two political parties has far more emphasis when viewed numerically.

I am sure that when the Labour Party was elected as the Government in past days, they would have no qualms about stating that they too had a mandate to deliver its policies that were in its manifesto. Otherwise, why bother with having a manifesto, in which any political party can let the electorate know how they stand on issues prior to a General Election. A manifesto such as this is quite a democratic matter.

And yet the Conservatives have absolute power despite getting less than 2 million more votes than Labour. Democracy is wonderful thing but not this **** poor implementation.

As for the manifesto what do it and a soiled nappy have in common? They're both full of faeces!

 

[Tetchytyke]

And yet the Conservatives have absolute power despite getting less than 2 million more votes than Labour. Democracy is wonderful thing but not this **** poor implementation.

It'll be interesting to see how the Electoral Commission investigation into the Conservatives' election expenses goes. I know the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg is determined to scrape it under the carpet (less anyone ask about her daddy's own electoral interference in Scotland ten years ago), but Channel 4 aren't letting this one lie.

 

[Barn]

And yet the Conservatives have absolute power despite getting less than 2 million more votes than Labour.

Last time Labour won (in 2005) they had only 767,521 more votes than the Conservatives and not only absolute power but a majority over five times as large as the Tories have now!

I respect people who are lifelong campaigners for a new voting system (maybe you are one), but there are HUGE numbers of people who bring this up only when their party has lost out and change their tune entirely when it works out for them.

 

[DarloRich]

It'll be interesting to see how the Electoral Commission investigation into the Conservatives' election expenses goes. I know the BBC's Laura Kuenssberg is determined to scrape it under the carpet (less anyone ask about her daddy's own electoral interference in Scotland ten years ago), but Channel 4 aren't letting this one lie.

nothing will happen beyond a few slapped wrists

 

[Tetchytyke]

nothing will happen beyond a few slapped wrists

I don't even think that, tbh. Electoral fraud is something only the little people and lefties do

 

[Steveman]

I don't even think that, tbh. Electoral fraud is something only the little people and lefties do

Don't forget muslim mayors.

 

[DarloRich]

Don't forget muslim mayors.

leftie muslim mayors

 

[SS4]

Last time Labour won (in 2005) they had only 767,521 more votes than the Conservatives and not only absolute power but a majority over five times as large as the Tories have now!

I respect people who are lifelong campaigners for a new voting system (maybe you are one), but there are HUGE numbers of people who bring this up only when their party has lost out and change their tune entirely when it works out for them.

I've not been a lifelong fan of an alternative voting system but I have been for about a decade once seeing how votes in some places were effectively worth more than others.