TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[backontrack]

T2 doesn't serve Bala. It's a misprint on the TrawsCymru website.

I thought that sounded wrong...

Anyway...thoughts?
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I was thinking this: there are 5 TransCymru routes (plus the Cardiff Airport Express); which others ones could there be?

So, does anyone have any suggestions for Trans-Wales bus routes?

Here's one based solely on maps - probably daft, but here goes:

NEWPORT-Caerleon-CWMBRÂN-Pontypool-Abergavenny-Crickhowell

or

Presteigne-Kington-HAY-ON-WYE-Three Cocks-Talgarth

then

BRECON-Sennybridge-LLANDOVERY-Llangadog-Llandeilo-CARMARTHEN-St Clears-Kilgetty-PEMBROKE-Pembroke Dock-Neyland-MILFORD HAVEN

 

[WelshBuses93]

There is plans to introduce 3 new corridors between now and 2018 if still in development.

Wrexham to Rhyl via Ruthin and Denbigh. (T6)
Carmarthen to Abergavenny via Llandeilo, Llandovery and Brecon. (T7)
Wrexham to Newtown via Oswestry and Welshpool. (T8)

http://gov.wales/docs//det/publications/140219reviewoftrawscymru.pdf

 

[backontrack]

T7 looks a bit like my route!

A Deeside route was also mentioned - how about Flint-Connah's Quay-Shotton-Queensferry-Deeside-Mold-Ruthin-Denbigh-St Asaph-Rhuddlan-(Glan Clywyd Hospital)-Rhyl?

Or a different route: Llandudno-Deganwy-Llandudno Junction-Conwy-Colwyn Bay-Old Colwyn-Llanddulas-Pensarn station-Abergele-Glan Clywyd Hospital-Rhuddlan-St Asaph-Denbigh-Ruthin

then

Mold-Buckley-Deeside-Queensferry-Shotton-Connah's Quay-Deeside Industrial Park

or

Corwen-Llangollen-Cefnmawr-(Acrefair)-Ruabon-(Rhosllannerchrugog)-Johnstown-Rhostyllen-Wrexham-Wrexham Glyndwr

 

[WelshBuses93]

I would do this.. but it may not work. :/
Rhyl - Glan Clwyd - St. Asaph - Denbigh - Caerwys - Mold - Buckley - Ewloe - Queensferry ASDA - Deeside Industrial Park - Cheshire Oaks - Ellesmere Port (Bus & Rail Stations).

or..

Rhyl - Glan Clwyd - St. Asaph - Denbigh - Caerwys - Mold - Connah's Quay - Shotton - Queensferry - Deeside Industrial Park - Cheshire Oaks - Ellesmere Port (Bus & Rail Stations).

 

[backontrack]

Interesting. Why no Ruthin?

Personally, I think that Caerwys would be better served by a bus going Chester-Deeside-Connah's Quay-Flint-Holywell-Caerwys-Denbigh.

 

[WelshBuses93]

Getting quite a few suggestions to be fair lol! Another I can suggest, although it would serve 4 counties, so here it is..

Wrexham to Llandudno via Deeside, Flint, Holywell, Prestatyn, Abergele, Colwyn Bay and Llandudno Junction.

Currently,
X9 Wrexham to Connah's Quay (reduction of Mold extension)
11/11G/ 11M Flint to Prestatyn (without alternations via Gronant/ Maes Pennant)
13 Prestatyn to Llandudno (revise route into Llandudno via Llandudno Station to Trinity Square)

 

[backontrack]

Getting quite a few suggestions to be fair lol! Another I can suggest, although it would serve 4 counties, so here it is..

Wrexham to Llandudno via Deeside, Flint, Holywell, Prestatyn, Abergele, Colwyn Bay and Llandudno Junction.

Currently,
X9 Wrexham to Connah's Quay (reduction of Mold extension)
11/11G/ 11M Flint to Prestatyn (without alternations via Gronant/ Maes Pennant)
13 Prestatyn to Llandudno (revise route into Llandudno via Llandudno Station to Trinity Square)

I would extend it to:

WREXHAM-Glyndwr-Mold-DEESIDE-Queensferry-Shotton-Connah's Quay-FLINT-Holywell-(-Dyserth-Rhuddlan-Glan Clwyd or Prestatyn-RHYL)-Abergele-Pensarn-Old Colwyn-COLWYN BAY-Llandudno Junction

then:

LLANDUDNO

or

CONWY-Penmaenmawr-Llanfairfechan-BANGOR-Menai Bridge

services alternate:

either

Llangefni-Rhosneigr-Valley-HOLYHEAD

or

Beaumaris-Benllech-Amlwch


With connecting buses between Llandudno and Llandudno Junction to compensate.
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How about more brand new route suggestions?

ABERYSTWYTH-Tregaron-LAMPETER-LLANDOVERY-BRECON-Merthyr Tydfil-Pontypridd-CARDIFF

Aberdovey-Borth-ABERYSTWYTH-Llangurig-Rhyader-BUILTH WELLS-BRECON-Merthyr Tydfil-Pontypridd-CARDIFF

Aberporth-CARDIGAN-Newcastle Emlyn-Llandysul-Llanybydder-Pumsaint-LLANDOVERY-Llangadog-Llandeilo-Ammanford-Pontardawe-Neath-Briton Ferry-SWANSEA

BANGOR-Bethesda
or
CAERNARFON-Llanberis
then
Capel Curig-BETWS-Y-COED-CORWEN-LLANGOLLEN-Cefn Mawr-(Acrefair)-Ruabon-WREXHAM-Wrexham Glyndwr

 

[Rhydgaled]

How about more brand new route suggestions?

ABERYSTWYTH-Tregaron-LAMPETER-LLANDOVERY-BRECON-Merthyr Tydfil-Pontypridd-CARDIFF

An interesting one, which if you ask me makes more sense than some of the suggestions made above which duplicate the north Wales coast railway. Way back in this topic I suggested a service from Aberystwyth or New Quay via Aberaeron and Lampeter to Brecon and Abergavenny, which if it connected with the T4 for Cardiff would provide similar journey opertunities to your suggestion, but without Tregaron.

Aberdovey-Borth-ABERYSTWYTH-Llangurig-Rhyader-BUILTH WELLS-BRECON-Merthyr Tydfil-Pontypridd-CARDIFF

Why start from Aberdovey? Rather a long way round via Machynlleth to Borth/Aberystwyth, and hence probably rather slow compared to a train with a change at Dovey Junction. From Aberystwyth to Cardiff via that route might combine nicely with the T4 to give an hourly frequency between Builth Wells and Cardiff.

Aberporth-CARDIGAN-Newcastle Emlyn-Llandysul-Llanybydder-Pumsaint-LLANDOVERY-Llangadog-Llandeilo-Ammanford-Pontardawe-Neath-Briton Ferry-SWANSEA

That just seems downright weird. If you really wanted to do Cardigan-Swansea, perhaps the following route would be better:
Cardigan - Newcastle Emlyn - B4333 - Cynwyl Elfed - Carmarthen - Cross Hands - M4 - Swansea high street - Quadrant bus station. I'm not sure if that would be enough of an improvement over the 460 to justify running both though.

 

[backontrack]

Why start from Aberdovey? Rather a long way round via Machynlleth to Borth/Aberystwyth, and hence probably rather slow compared to a train with a change at Dovey Junction. From Aberystwyth to Cardiff via that route might combine nicely with the T4 to give an hourly frequency between Builth Wells and Cardiff.

Apologies, I thought there was a road round from Aberdovey to Borth but there isn't.

I'd start it at Borth, which can be served relatively easily from Aberystyth - and there might be enough demand for it. And you're right in that it would give a hourly frequency between Builth Wells and Cardiff.
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That just seems downright weird. If you really wanted to do Cardigan-Swansea, perhaps the following route would be better:
Cardigan - Newcastle Emlyn - B4333 - Cynwyl Elfed - Carmarthen - Cross Hands - M4 - Swansea high street - Quadrant bus station. I'm not sure if that would be enough of an improvement over the 460 to justify running both though.

Yeah, I thought that one was a bit stupid. I was thinking about connecting in some of the other towns around Carmarthen like Newcastle Emlyn and Llandysul; I think I'll leave it to Bwcabus instead.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

An interesting one, which if you ask me makes more sense than some of the suggestions made above which duplicate the north Wales coast railway. Way back in this topic I suggested a service from Aberystwyth or New Quay via Aberaeron and Lampeter to Brecon and Abergavenny, which if it connected with the T4 for Cardiff would provide similar journey opertunities to your suggestion, but without Tregaron.

You're right that there's probably more demand for Aberaeron and New Quay than Tregaron, but the former two are already served by the T5 (and, in Aberaeron's case, the T1). It surprises me that Aberporth (which has a larger population than either of them) doesn't get a better service.

The best way to do it is probably (Aberporth)-Cardigan-Newcastle Emlyn-(Llandysul)-Cynwyl Elfed-Carmarthen-Cross Hands-Swansea-Cardiff. Aberporth and Llandysul alternate.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I was thinking about connecting in some of the other towns around Carmarthen like Newcastle Emlyn and Llandysul; I think I'll leave it to Bwcabus instead.

I do think Llandysul might not be best left to Bwcabus, but I'm not sure TrawsCymru is really the way to provide it with a proper bus service. Instead I'd like to see a Llandysul-Pencader-Carmarthen local service every two hours, allowing the T1 to avoid Pencader in those hours*, and perhaps a more-frequent 551 ((Cardigan) - Newcastle Emlyn - Llandysul - New Quay) too.

* it would also cease to be a TrawsCymru service in the hours it serves Pencader; those workings would revert to being known as service 40 with the T1 concentrating on Carmarthen-Lampeter-Aberaeron-Aberystwyth.

 

[Simon75]

I do think Llandysul might not be best left to Bwcabus, but I'm not sure TrawsCymru is really the way to provide it with a proper bus service. Instead I'd like to see a Llandysul-Pencader-Carmarthen local service every two hours, allowing the T1 to avoid Pencader in those hours*, and perhaps a more-frequent 551 ((Cardigan) - Newcastle Emlyn - Llandysul - New Quay) too.

* it would also cease to be a TrawsCymru service in the hours it serves Pencader; those workings would revert to being known as service 40 with the T1 concentrating on Carmarthen-Lampeter-Aberaeron-Aberystwyth.

What about the T3 extend to Nantwich (years ago the X94 did)

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

I've got to say that some of these suggestions for new TrawsCymru routes are plain ridiculous.. there is currently no service between Llandovery and Brecon and no service to Llandysul... there's a good reason for this... there's no demand- not even enough demand for a tendered service.

I particularly remember Bryan's Coaches trying a service via New Quay and Llandysul. Whilst the service picked up a few passengers in New Quay the average number of passengers travelling from points between New Quay and Pencader was approximately 1.5 passengers per journey! I for one would object to my taxes being used to support services that transport nothing but fresh air!

 

[iantherev]

Getting away from speculation about the future, a new TrawsCymru day ticket has been launched today, valid on all TC services, plus Lloyds X85 between Newtown and Machynlleth. Prices are £10 adult, £7 child/young person and £25 family.

 

[adey2011]

There is plans to introduce 3 new corridors between now and 2018 if still in development.

Wrexham to Rhyl via Ruthin and Denbigh. (T6)
Carmarthen to Abergavenny via Llandeilo, Llandovery and Brecon. (T7)
Wrexham to Newtown via Oswestry and Welshpool. (T8)

http://gov.wales/docs//det/publications/140219reviewoftrawscymru.pdf

I believe to fully integrate the services and give potential passengers the chance of making onward journeys the T8 should be extended to Machynlleth, possibly by integrating into it the X85. Passengers could then travel from Wrexham to Machynlleth and change to a T2 for onward journeys.

 

[ivanhoe]

If the Welsh Assembly could work jointly with say Cheshire West and extend the Newtown -Wrexham to Chester, then it would be possibly beneficial to more passengers. I realise that scarce funds must be used for the benefit of the Welsh People but by extending this route , it may encourage better passenger flows.

 

[backontrack]

I believe to fully integrate the services and give potential passengers the chance of making onward journeys the T8 should be extended to Machynlleth, possibly by integrating into it the X85. Passengers could then travel from Wrexham to Machynlleth and change to a T2 for onward journeys.

That would makes sense.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I've got to say that some of these suggestions for new TrawsCymru routes are plain ridiculous.. there is currently no service between Llandovery and Brecon and no service to Llandysul... there's a good reason for this... there's no demand- not even enough demand for a tendered service.

I particularly remember Bryan's Coaches trying a service via New Quay and Llandysul. Whilst the service picked up a few passengers in New Quay the average number of passengers travelling from points between New Quay and Pencader was approximately 1.5 passengers per journey! I for one would object to my taxes being used to support services that transport nothing but fresh air!

There is a tendered (Bwcabus fixed timetable) service between Llandysul and Pencader, if I recall correctly this replaced a Llandysul-Carmarthen service (the 41) when Arriva pulled the plug on it (they had been running it commercially, although only very briefly, if I recall correctly, so the demand can't be quite as low as you make out but Arriva found it was not enough for a commercial service). When the T1 was orriginally tendered (before Arriva's Cymru Express) the tender also included a service L1 to serve Llandysul. If anyone has timetables for the 41 (or even the L1 if the tender documents even included a timetable) could they upload them please, as I'd be interested to see how frequent they were.

As for, "between Llandovery and Brecon", I think you mean "between Lampeter and Llandovery" which is a discussion we've had before. As I probably said before, I'm looking at it from the perspective of longer-distance journeys; sure it wouldn't pick up many pepole between Lampeter and Llandovery, but I think it might be a useful link between the Ceredigion coast, southern Powys and Abergavenny. Admittedly, pepole don't tend to make long journeys as often as they make shorter ones, but the same argument can probably be used against most of the TrawsCymru routes, including the Carmarthen-Abergavenny proposal.

Getting away from speculation about the future, a new TrawsCymru day ticket has been launched today, valid on all TC services, plus Lloyds X85 between Newtown and Machynlleth. Prices are £10 adult, £7 child/young person and £25 family.

Also starting today is a summer-only Sunday service on the T5 apparently.

 

[Teflon Lettuce]

There is a tendered (Bwcabus fixed timetable) service between Llandysul and Pencader, if I recall correctly this replaced a Llandysul-Carmarthen service (the 41) when Arriva pulled the plug on it (they had been running it commercially, although only very briefly, if I recall correctly, so the demand can't be quite as low as you make out

No... the demand for a service through Llandysul IS as low as I say... I was a regular driver on the 751 and the figures I quoted are based on the ACTUAL passenger numbers.

As for, "between Llandovery and Brecon", I think you mean "between Lampeter and Llandovery"

nope I definitely meant Llandovery to Brecon... note there is so much demand for a service between these two points that Powys withdrew the tendered service, leaving absolutely no service between these points!

but I think it might be a useful link between the Ceredigion coast, southern Powys and Abergavenny. Admittedly, pepole don't tend to make long journeys as often as they make shorter ones, but the same argument can probably be used against most of the TrawsCymru routes, including the Carmarthen-Abergavenny proposal.

it may be a useful link, just as the 751 was a useful link between Newquay and South Wales... HOWEVER the problem with services that make useful long distance links is that, in general, people making the long distance journeys over useful links usually only use the link on an occasional basis and therefore make a low level demand on the service... if there isn't the regular short distance demand then the service is doomed no matter how much money, private or public, is thrown at it.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

nope I definitely meant Llandovery to Brecon... note there is so much demand for a service between these two points that Powys withdrew the tendered service, leaving absolutely no service between these points!

HOWEVER the problem with services that make useful long distance links is that, in general, people making the long distance journeys over useful links usually only use the link on an occasional basis and therefore make a low level demand on the service... if there isn't the regular short distance demand then the service is doomed no matter how much money, private or public, is thrown at it.

Absolutely Teflon. We can all sit in our bedroom/office with a map open and surmise about having a bus here and a bus there because there's some missing link.

Thing is that the link is probably missing for a good reason I.e. no definitive traffic flow nor any reason for one to exist or to be generated. In terms of a link from the Ceredigion coast to Abergavenny.... Why? Heading from one very small population centre to another? With sweet FA in between!

That is completely different from the other TC routes where there has been a established routes with established flows that have been replaced (even if the routes north of Brecon were sparse). Aber to Carmarthen was basically two long established routes welded into one. As you say, the route from Lampeter to Brecon has no daily services and only a couple of market days journeys from Lampeter to Llandovery.

Now apologies to Rhydgaled as he is getting a bit singled out on this (please don't take it personally) and it applies from the initial post and subsequent posts over the last week. Anyone can identify two places on a map and say we should have a route from A to B. To create something that passengers will actually use is a whole lot harder

 

[backontrack]

But Llandovery-Brecon isn't meant to serve Llandovery-Brecon traffic in particular. It's for Llandovery-Cardiff and Brecon-Cardiff traffic.

I maintain that these two suggestions aren't 'ridiculous'.

ABERYSTWYTH-Tregaron-LAMPETER-LLANDOVERY-BRECON-Merthyr Tydfil-Pontypridd-CARDIFF
ABERYSTWYTH-Llangurig-Rhyader-BUILTH WELLS-BRECON-Merthyr Tydfil-Pontypridd-CARDIFF

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But Llandovery-Brecon isn't meant to serve Llandovery-Brecon traffic in particular. It's for Llandovery-Cardiff and Brecon-Cardiff traffic.

I maintain that these two suggestions aren't 'ridiculous'.

ABERYSTWYTH-Tregaron-LAMPETER-LLANDOVERY-BRECON-Merthyr Tydfil-Pontypridd-CARDIFF
ABERYSTWYTH-Llangurig-Rhyader-BUILTH WELLS-BRECON-Merthyr Tydfil-Pontypridd-CARDIFF

Brecon to Cardiff is already covered by the T4 and I'd be surprised if there's any market from Llandovery to Cardiff. The T1 also already covers the Aber to Lampeter stretch as well and there's been a long history (and a very good article in a Buses Extra by David Holding) detailing the decline of services from Aber and Lampeter to Llanwrda and Ammanford. There was a daily (Mon to Sat) service replacing the X52 after deregulation and it took an average of 1 passenger every two trips.

If there were money to spend, there's better places in which to spend it (e.g. Hourly service on the 39 or 280/1, for instance).

 

[krus_aragon]

I believe to fully integrate the services and give potential passengers the chance of making onward journeys the T8 should be extended to Machynlleth, possibly by integrating into it the X85. Passengers could then travel from Wrexham to Machynlleth and change to a T2 for onward journeys.

The current T3 (Wrexham - Barmouth) service already connects with the T2 at Dolgellau.

 

[adey2011]

The current T3 (Wrexham - Barmouth) service already connects with the T2 at Dolgellau.

Very true unless of course you happen to live in Welshpool and the villages towards Newtown, in which case going onwards to Machynlleth to connect to a T2 South for Aberystwyth or a T2 North for Bangor would make perfect sense.

 

[krus_aragon]

Very true unless of course you happen to live in Welshpool and the villages towards Newtown, in which case going onwards to Machynlleth to connect to a T2 South for Aberystwyth or a T2 North for Bangor would make perfect sense.

Bearing in mind that Welshpool and Newtown themselves already have a railway service to Machynlleth and Aberystwyth, I fear the market you're chasing may be rather small.

 

[carlberry]

Very true unless of course you happen to live in Welshpool and the villages towards Newtown, in which case going onwards to Machynlleth to connect to a T2 South for Aberystwyth or a T2 North for Bangor would make perfect sense.

The WAG isnt going to pay for anything that would compete with the train (and it's preference is to have an air service available!).

 

[adey2011]

The WAG isnt going to pay for anything that would compete with the train (and it's preference is to have an air service available!).

You raise a good point but, the T2 is in competition with the train from Aberystwyth to Machynlleth and also Lloyds X28. Whilst the trains from Welshpool to Machynlleth via Newtown have both the X75 and X85 to name but two tendered bus services on virtually the same route. It isn't therefore that cut and dried, people living in between the stations at Welshpool, Newtown and Machynlleth use the tendered bus services now, my point was that any potential T8 extended to Machynlleth would make travelling easier and create better connections. Surely the Traws Cymru network is about giving people easy access to all of the major places in Wales?

 

[WelshBuses93]

You also have the T3 which operates between Wrexham Central/ Wrexham General and Ruabon station.

 

[backontrack]

Surely the Traws Cymru network is about giving people easy access to all of the major places in Wales?

It doesn't serve Swansea, Newport or Llandudno!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The WAG isnt going to pay for anything that would compete with the train (and it's preference is to have an air service available!).

Quite true - remember what the explicit purpose of TC is a network of "medium- to long-distance, strategically important bus services that connect key towns in Wales and which complement the rail network."

 

[Bletchleyite]

If they really think that, how about moving to the next stage of full integration with the railway timetable and fare system?


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