Southern DOO: ASLEF members vote 79.1% for revised deal

[ComUtoR]

Well firstly platform staff don't show a flag to a conductor. And I am not making up anything

Which are you comparing ?

Dispatch given directly to the driver by a member of platform staff or dispatch given to the guard by platform staff. On my Guard dispatch services its insignificant between the two.

From when the first close doors is given both Driver and Guard hit the door close button - Zero time difference.

From interlock - The station staff check the platform for the train safety check and give the next indication to Driver or Guard. The time difference between me confirming two on the bell is barely a few seconds. There would be a difference between stock and dispatch procedures as I have noted on some TOC's the Guard needs to close his local door before interlock is gained.

On my DOO services it takes less than 10 seconds from CD to taking power. With a Guard its just as quick.

If you took away the platform staff then I would say that Guards can be quicker at times as I need to go through more safety checks and I need to make absolutely certain I am safe to proceed. When I have a Guard I am confident that when I get tow on the bell I am safe to pull away.

 

[Wolfie]

I wish you the best of luck. You're quite right that going from a guaranteed turn up and travel service to one that's hit and miss is a significant disadvantage for a person in your position. I hope you can find someone to take your case.

l would love nothing more than to see Charlie Horton in a Court under oath.. against a sharp QC the halfwit will be made a laughingstock...

 

[TheEdge]

Well firstly platform staff don't show a flag to a conductor. And I am not making up anything

Apart from that statement which is utterly made up. :roll:

If a conductor operated train is being dispatched by station staff then all light, flags, tips, signals etc go to the conductor.

Please, can you and XDM, just stop. You both clearly have no understanding of the issues and are both spouting utter trash...

 

[455driver]

Well firstly platform staff don't show a flag to a conductor. And I am not making up anything

A word of advice-
When in a hole stop digging!

Once again you are confirming how little you know about the operation of the railway.

 

[TheEdge]

l would love nothing more than to see Charlie Horton in a Court under oath.. against a sharp QC the halfwit will be made a laughingstock...

I do wonder how Dyan, Charlie and their friends would feel if criminal liability shifted. Rather than all the criminal liability being square on a driver why not includes executives in that liability.

At worst currently for Dyan and Charlie the worst they can expect in a trap and death incident is maybe a H&S at work charge against GTR while the driver is up on a manslaughter charge. If Charlie and Dyan could be pulled up next to a driver on a manslaughter charge I'm fairly sure DOO wouldn't have much traction.

 

[tsr]

Apart from that statement which is utterly made up. :roll:

If a conductor operated train is being dispatched by station staff then all light, flags, tips, signals etc go to the conductor.

Please, can you and XDM, just stop. You both clearly have no understanding of the issues and are both spouting utter trash...

A word of advice-
When in a hole stop digging!

Once again you are confirming how little you know about the operation of the railway.

Sorry to say, chaps, but both of you are a little off the mark. I happen to sign a decent chunk of the GTR network and thus with considerable confidence I can say the following:

Conductors can receive a red flag in exceptional circumstances (usually, by default due to equipment supplied, it is now a red light or hand signal) to stop dispatch, but I do not know of a single location on the Southern network where they would ever be shown a green flag; indeed platform staff would only be expected to relay a green flag or light from the conductor to the driver in the event of bell/buzzer failure, should there not be any other suitable method.

I cannot actually think of any Southern conductor-worked service I have ever seen where a flag was presented to the conductor during dispatch. I've seen a red light a number of times, mind, but flags are simply not used except in the direst emergencies. Bell/buzzer failures are extremely rare on Southern stock anyway, so relaying the ready-to-start signal is not something generally not done. Most conductors I speak to have never experienced one in recent years, by which I mean 5+, which is pretty impressive given the standard method of dispatch is to give the ready-to-start signal on the bell or buzzer, rather than using green flags/lights, RA, or other variants as seen at other TOCs.

Lastly, the usual method of dispatch with platform staff and conductors on the Southern network involves white lights from hand lamps or illuminated dispatch bats. Some locations still use standard bats and this is also accepted in daylight hours/not during fog/falling snow. You get the picture. The first white light from the person in charge of the platform indicates station work complete. The second indicates that the train safety check is complete. (I have obviously abridged this.) The conductor will then check for themselves so far as they can see, check the signal, close their local door, check interlock and give the ready-to-start.

The driver is therefore much more likely to see flags in operation for driver and platform staff "bat and flag" dispatch. Conductor dispatch would rarely include it and most conductors' flags on Southern would be in mint condition.

 

[TheEdge]

I'm not sure your point. Platform staff still give the dispatch signals to the conductor. Be it with lights, hands, bats, flags. Flags, as in the piece of fabric are of course rare all over the network. But not signals from platform staff to crew. Focusing as you are on the use of the word flags is just being obtuse.

Surprisingly, as a conductor, I know how the dispatch process works. I've also used flags for dispatch in the last few months. So it does still happen.

 

[455driver]

I do wonder how Dyan, Charlie and their friends would feel if criminal liability shifted. Rather than all the criminal liability being square on a driver why not includes executives in that liability.

At worst currently for Dyan and Charlie the worst they can expect in a trap and death incident is maybe a H&S at work charge against GTR while the driver is up on a manslaughter charge. If Charlie and Dyan could be pulled up next to a driver on a manslaughter charge I'm fairly sure DOO wouldn't have much traction.

I think it would be an excellent idea if (after it is proved that the driver/guard did everything to comply with the companies procedures) there was still an incident then the people who signed off that method of working should be in the dock, that would focus a few minds.
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Sorry to say, chaps, but both of you are a little off the mark. I happen to sign a decent chunk of the GTR network and thus with considerable confidence I can say the following:

Conductors can receive a red flag in exceptional circumstances (usually, by default due to equipment supplied, it is now a red light or hand signal) to stop dispatch, but I do not know of a single location on the Southern network where they would ever be shown a green flag; indeed platform staff would only be expected to relay a green flag or light from the conductor to the driver in the event of bell/buzzer failure, should there not be any other suitable method.

I cannot actually think of any Southern conductor-worked service I have ever seen where a flag was presented to the conductor during dispatch. I've seen a red light a number of times, mind, but flags are simply not used except in the direst emergencies. Bell/buzzer failures are extremely rare on Southern stock anyway, so relaying the ready-to-start signal is not something generally not done. Most conductors I speak to have never experienced one in recent years, by which I mean 5+, which is pretty impressive given the standard method of dispatch is to give the ready-to-start signal on the bell or buzzer, rather than using green flags/lights, RA, or other variants as seen at other TOCs.

Lastly, the usual method of dispatch with platform staff and conductors on the Southern network involves white lights from hand lamps or illuminated dispatch bats. Some locations still use standard bats and this is also accepted in daylight hours/not during fog/falling snow. You get the picture. The first white light from the person in charge of the platform indicates station work complete. The second indicates that the train safety check is complete. (I have obviously abridged this.) The conductor will then check for themselves so far as they can see, check the signal, close their local door, check interlock and give the ready-to-start.

The driver is therefore much more likely to see flags in operation for driver and platform staff "bat and flag" dispatch. Conductor dispatch would rarely include it and most conductors' flags on Southern would be in mint condition.

He is referring to the 'flags' as if they are used during dispatch, maybe we should have corrected that part as well and said it is bat/light these days although flags are occasionally used!
I, as a driver, have received a green flag from station staff to dispatch my train in the last month, and will again in a couple of weeks.

 

[tsr]

Well firstly platform staff don't show a flag to a conductor. And I am not making up anything

Apart from that statement which is utterly made up. :roll:

If a conductor operated train is being dispatched by station staff then all light, flags, tips, signals etc go to the conductor.

I'm not sure your point. Platform staff still give the dispatch signals to the conductor. Be it with lights, hands, bats, flags. Flags, as in the piece of fabric are of course rare all over the network. But not signals from platform staff to crew. Focusing as you are on the use of the word flags is just being obtuse.

I'm not really sure it is being obtuse. You told JamesTT that his observations specifically on the use of flags were incorrect. Your conversation is clear as day. For once, JamesTT actually happens to be correct regarding the specific and very clear point which you took him to task on.

I am providing very clear definition because JamesTT made a very exact point which you criticised. This criticism of this exact point was incorrect. In any case ready-to-start signals will often be relayed from conductor to driver by platform staff during conductor dispatch with a faulty bell/buzzer. So not all signals go the conductor anyway, in the rare event that flags are actually used.

 

[455driver]

So to make your point stand up you have brought degraded working/faulty buzzer into it!

 

[LowLevel]

To be fair on this occasion I will support him in that he is correct and platform staff generally won't wave a flag at a guard.

At locations where I have to do flag waving it's me waving the flag at the platform staff or driver.

About the only time as mentioned it might happen is as an emergency stop but I don't think I've ever seen a dispatcher carrying a red flag.

The only time it ever happened when I was dispatching was on long trains with no driver guard communication when the guard would give you the green flag, you would show it back to confirm then walk up and show it to the driver. This was rather rare though as in practice the preferred method was for the guard to move forward for their dispatch so the driver could see them.

 

[JamesTT]

CAN I FIRSTLY SAY I WAS NOT MAKING ANYTHING UP.

From what I have seen when a train is despatched by platform staff. DOO trains have less dwell time to those with a conductor. However that reduction in dwell time is usually about 10 seconds not worth dispensing of conductors with in my opinion.

 

[infobleep]

On Saturday afternoon I was in London using the tubes.

I waited at London Bridge to board a jubilee line train. I didn't consider it to be so busy that I wouldn't be able to board where I was standing.

However the door bleeps started to sound just as the person in front of me about to or was actually getting on the train. A passenger on the train pull back the tube train doors to stop then closing so the person could get on. They were briefly in between two sets of doors that were closing on them or had closed on them.

Now I can't remember if the person was boarding after the door bleeps went or not but I didn't think I'd been awaiting that so long I wouldn't be able to board so I could quite easily see how someone might think I've still got time to board and carries on.

Imagine that on the national rail network. May be it would be just as safe. I don't know. Not keen on the idea myself though.

I then got the next train.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk
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To think that Southern want to get rid of these people. I don't know if this poster predates Southern doing the government's work or after?

I wonder what James thinks about job security?

There was also a poster for JC who works in a ticket office. How endangered is he?

Then finally it's Euan. He's a driver. He's not endangered but should some danger happen, he'll be alone and might even be in court for the danger. So it's a different type of danger for him.

I saw no women in any of the posters but isnt it a male dominated industry? Perhaps that's way.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[maniacmartin]

I saw no women in any of the posters but isnt it a male dominated industry? Perhaps that's way.

There's some posters with Tee who's a female RPI.. Not all coaches have room for all of the poster varieties though.

 

[Deepgreen]

The 0745 Dorking (ex-Horsham) to Victoria this morning was 5 vice 10 cars. At Mitcham Eastfields there was a long delay until the driver had to alight and walk back down the train, presumably to sort out a door problem as so many people were cramming on. As we approached Victoria he apologised for having been "lumbered" with a short train and advised us "to have a go at Southern on twitter"! More than a ripple of amusement ensued.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

l would love nothing more than to see Charlie Horton in a Court under oath.. against a sharp QC the halfwit will be made a laughingstock...

Obviously I do not have your deep insight into legalistic transgressions, so can I ask you on what charges under the law would the CPS have brought the case against Charlie Horton in order that the matter to which you allude can take place?

 

[DarloRich]

Obviously I do not have your deep insight into legalistic transgressions, so can I ask you on what charges under the law would the CPS have brought the case against Charlie Horton in order that the matter to which you allude can take place?

Paul - you do take things sooooo literally! It is a throw away comment along the lines of I would love to punch X in the mouth.

Where has this stated matter of an automated railway with no staff surfaced from?

Surely with your years of high level corporate experience you will be aware of the concepts of corporate deniability and doublespeak.

No one would be silly enough to commit such a plan to paper or to public discussion (at this stage) but what if discussions, with a view to forming future corporate policy, go on all the time as do confidential, non minuted, meetings on topics that would be viewed unfavorably by the drones.

 

[tsr]

So to make your point stand up you have brought degraded working/faulty buzzer into it!

Well, as we're talking about flags, and that happens to be pretty much the only situation in which they would be used to proceed with conductor dispatch on a Southern service...!

However the door bleeps started to sound just as the person in front of me about to or was actually getting on the train. A passenger on the train pull back the tube train doors to stop then closing so the person could get on. They were briefly in between two sets of doors that were closing on them or had closed on them.

Now I can't remember if the person was boarding after the door bleeps went or not but I didn't think I'd been awaiting that so long I wouldn't be able to board so I could quite easily see how someone might think I've still got time to board and carries on.

Imagine that on the national rail network. May be it would be just as safe. I don't know. Not keen on the idea myself though.

I'm not sure if you mean that the person was caught between the platform edge doors and the train doors, which sounds potentially dangerous, but then I don't work with PEDs and I'm not trained on them. The PEDs do have emergency egress handles but I'm not sure you would be able to turn round to use them in such a situation, nor that most people would have the presence of mind to do so.

To think that Southern want to get rid of these people. I don't know if this poster predates Southern doing the government's work or after?

These posters have been displayed since a date before the current dispute.

I wonder what James thinks about job security?

I don't want to give away personal information, but whilst I believe all the staff featured were employed by Southern at some point, some were actually line managers, or were front-line employees but employed quite a long time ago. Chances are that James et al may not personally be that interested in job security as a conductor.

The 0745 Dorking (ex-Horsham) to Victoria this morning was 5 vice 10 cars. At Mitcham Eastfields there was a long delay until the driver had to alight and walk back down the train, presumably to sort out a door problem as so many people were cramming on. As we approached Victoria he apologised for having been "lumbered" with a short train and advised us "to have a go at Southern on twitter"! More than a ripple of amusement ensued.

It could well have been to investigate an obstruction in the doors - and to be nearer to them in order to observe any obstructions, they may also have used the porter switches to close the doors.

 

[Dave1987]

Obviously I do not have your deep insight into legalistic transgressions, so can I ask you on what charges under the law would the CPS have brought the case against Charlie Horton in order that the matter to which you allude can take place?

Paul I sincerely hope you are being facetious.

 

[Deepgreen]

It could well have been to investigate an obstruction in the doors - and to be nearer to them in order to observe any obstructions, they may also have used the porter switches to close the doors.

Indeed - my point was really about the driver exhorting us to complain about Southern on Twitter!

 

[infobleep]

There's some posters with Tee who's a female RPI.. Not all coaches have room for all of the poster varieties though.

There was actuality some spare slot but that bad an advert in it! Perhaps they can't find advertisers for the other three slots, so filled it with photos of staff.

Sent from my SM-G925F using Tapatalk

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Paul - you do take things sooooo literally! It is a throw away comment along the lines of I would love to punch X in the mouth.

If people are wiling to use childish and petulant "throwaway" comments in a dedicated posting on a thread on this website, rather than keeping them contained and securely chained in the inner depths of their own fertile imagination. they should fully expect one of the "big boys" in the school, if not the headteacher, to challenge them, as I did in my response to the posting made.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Paul I sincerely hope you are being facetious.

My answer is contained on posting # 3322 on the thread.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Surely with your years of high level corporate experience you will be aware of the concepts of corporate deniability and doublespeak.

No one would be silly enough to commit such a plan to paper or to public discussion (at this stage) but what if discussions, with a view to forming future corporate policy, go on all the time as do confidential, non minuted, meetings on topics that would be viewed unfavorably by the drones.

Indeed so and thirty years at the top in Senior Management, both in Canada and Britain, have meant that I am well aware of all such matters. It was the ridiculous supposition that had been committed to print in a posting that I was not prepared to let pass unchallenged.

I fully expected your comment on how silly the idea to commit such a ridiculous plan to paper would be, should you too had wished to comment upon the said matter.

 

[Dave1987]

Paul what you are essentially saying it that a senior manager can state that as far as he/she is concerned a method of working is safe but then not be held accountable for that if someone is killed or injured.

 

[Wolfie]

Obviously I do not have your deep insight into legalistic transgressions, so can I ask you on what charges under the law would the CPS have brought the case against Charlie Horton in order that the matter to which you allude can take place?

Methinks, given that the context was potential action by the Equalities and Human Rights Commission against GTR and Mr Horton would be a key witness in any such action, that you are being more than a little disingenuous bringing charges and the CPS into the equation....

Paul what you are essentially saying it that a senior manager can state that as far as he/she is concerned a method of working is safe but then not be held accountable for that if someone is killed or injured.

That is exactly what the former senior manager is saying!

Power (and remuneration) but not responsibility... never mind, the trough will be filled again soon....

If people are wiling to use childish and petulant "throwaway" comments in a dedicated posting on a thread on this website, rather than keeping them contained and securely chained in the inner depths of their own fertile imagination. they should fully expect one of the "big boys" in the school, if not the headteacher, to challenge them, as I did in my response to the posting made.

Indeed so and thirty years at the top in Senior Management, both in Canada and Britain, have meant that I am well aware of all such matters. It was the ridiculous supposition that had been committed to print in a posting that I was not prepared to let pass unchallenged.

Very kind of you to take on your self-appointed role... of course you leave yourself wide open for a similar response given the speculative and opinionated nature of many of your own posts.

 

[FordFocus]

I drive both DOO and trains manned with a guard. There is little time difference in the dispatch time to even consider it an advantage for DOO. The one system that takes the longest is DOO CD/RA depending on where the dispatch box is.

Paul, I think it was hinted by myself that the railway is becoming destaffed. Over the years since BR was privatised , assistant fares collectors have been made redundant (various franchises), Guards have disappeared off trains (c2c, LOROL, Scotrail, other franchises and routes), Catering staff have come and gone (certain InterCity franchises), RPI positions either removed or their hours are only during morning peak (FGW LTV). Station Staff have gone (London Midland ticket office cull in around 2011), gateline staff replaced with cheaper agency staff. Some TOCs want to move towards self dispatch to remove dispatch staff at stations, (ATW, EMT, NT, GTR). I'm not going back to the time of golden age of 'Porters' and 'Station Masters', the jobs listed above that still have a vital part to place in the 21st century.

GTR and other TOCs are in the business of making profit, they don't . The only realistic cost cuts they really make are to the staffing bill, it's the Govia way. They want a utopia of DOO trains, cheap gateline staff protecting revenue at the door and the occasional token gesture of an 'OBS' that will disappear the way of TTI/AFC/RPA through redundancy and natural wastage. Some forum members think this is a good thing for the passenger. Fares won't go down and with less or no staff available, your getting a worse deal for your money.

Govia and Horton can put a spin like LUL did on this as much as they want. It isn't "Improving the customer experience" or "Improving your railway" when staff aren't there any more.

 

[HowardGWR]

Does anyone know what the next initiative in this dispute is to be? I don't get a sense of any proposals but I have been away for a few weeks.

 

[FordFocus]

I think the ball is in ASLEFs court (no pun intended!) at the minute over the High Court case due shortly.

The redundancy date for Conductors is constantly getting pushed back.

 

[HowardGWR]

Thanks FordFocus. I've been on holiday for three weeks. Just to balance matters, I was forced into a night at Gatwick hotel by French traffic controllers holding our plane for three hours (two stuck on the tarmac!!) and although there were cancellations, we were whisked up to CLJ the next day by a clearly committted Southern driver and recovered a few minutes and made our connection to Exeter. Mind, some of the lurches over the crossings onto the Quarry line had me breaking out in sweat.

 

[DarloRich]

I note from Twitter that there is a new open letter to customers on the Southern account:

https://twitter.com/SouthernRailUK/status/744924100410413056

(Not sure how to quote from a picture)

 

[Islineclear3_1]

.I saw no women in any of the posters but isnt it a male dominated industry? Perhaps that's way.

Saw a young lady Guard/Conductor on a Southern train at Southampton going to Brighton a few weeks ago. Wonder if it was SarahJ....

There are a few women out there....