Should We Leave the EU?

[Gutfright]

That seems somewhat questionable. There's a pretty good argument for saying that Greece did get itself into a bad mess in the first place - by allowing allowing a culture of not paying taxes to develop, while trying to spend money on consuming more than it was producing as a country. The EU did subsequently lend Greece a huge amount of money to help the country recover, attached to an austerity program. Personally, I don't believe that the level of austerity required was the right answer, but I don't see any reason to doubt that those in the ECB who devised it did on the whole genuinely believe that it was the only way to get Greece's economy working properly again (just as, presumably George Osborne believes the same thing, albeit on a smaller scale, in the UK). There's no need to invoke a motive of vindictiveness to explain the EU's actions on Greece.

That's quite a good analogy, actually. The European Central Bank is much like the George Osbourne of Europe, both arrogantly using every pretext they can get to push austerity measures on others.

Whether you believe George Osbourne and the ECB are acting out of a sense of financial responsibility or are enacting a vindictive, vicious, ideologically-driven attack against the poorest and most vulnerable members of society depends on where you stand on the left-right spectrum.

 

[anme]

Any "leaver" want to start the day by explaining what they want to see after a vote to leave the EU? Do you favour the Norwegian model, remaining part of the single market? Or the Canadian model, where all relationships have to be separately negotiated? Or something else? Please say! You MUST have thought about this.

I realise that I've asked this question here many times, with only one response so far (favouring the Norwegian model). But I live in hope that someone else will reply.

 

[PhilipRhayader]

That's quite a good analogy, actually. The European Central Bank is much like the George Osbourne of Europe, both arrogantly using every pretext they can get to push austerity measures on others.

Whether you believe George Osbourne and the ECB are acting out of a sense of financial responsibility or are enacting a vindictive, vicious, ideologically-driven attack against the poorest and most vulnerable members of society depends on where you stand on the left-right spectrum.

Should leave be successful, what changes do you expect to see from the likes of Johnson, Smith, Gove, Grayling and Farage?

 

[Senex]

That seems somewhat questionable. There's a pretty good argument for saying that Greece did get itself into a bad mess in the first place - by allowing allowing a culture of not paying taxes to develop, while trying to spend money on consuming more than it was producing as a country. The EU did subsequently lend Greece a huge amount of money to help the country recover, attached to an austerity program. Personally, I don't believe that the level of austerity required was the right answer, but I don't see any reason to doubt that those in the ECB who devised it did on the whole genuinely believe that it was the only way to get Greece's economy working properly again (just as, presumably George Osborne believes the same thing, albeit on a smaller scale, in the UK). There's no need to invoke a motive of vindictiveness to explain the EU's actions on Greece.

I think it's clear that to a very large extent Greece was the author of its own problems, a fact which people now seem very ready to forget. But from the EU side, it's equally clear that Greece (like some others) should never have been allowed into the Euro. But given that it wanted to be and was, then the EU does have a strong and very valid interest in trying to get it sorted out. We may think their policies were to a greater or lesser extent wrong, but I agree with you that to invoke vindictiveness is unnecessary.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That's quite a good analogy, actually. The European Central Bank is much like the George Osbourne of Europe, both arrogantly using every pretext they can get to push austerity measures on others.

Whether you believe George Osbourne and the ECB are acting out of a sense of financial responsibility or are enacting a vindictive, vicious, ideologically-driven attack against the poorest and most vulnerable members of society depends on where you stand on the left-right spectrum.

Well, since you have chosen a right-wing person to use as your example of the one who ideologically espouses austerity measures against "the poorest and most vulnerable members of society", perhaps he has been learning the lessons of history from those most definitely on the left-wing side of the political spectrum, such the leaders of the Pol Pot regime and Josef Stalin to name but two regimes in what I term recent history.

 

[Senex]

Any "leaver" want to start the day by explaining what they want to see after a vote to leave the EU? Do you favour the Norwegian model, remaining part of the single market? Or the Canadian model, where all relationships have to be separately negotiated? Or something else? Please say! You MUST have thought about this.

I realise that I've asked this question here many times, with only one response so far (favouring the Norwegian model). But I live in hope that someone else will reply.

As a sort of reluctant Remainer (emotionally totally committed to the EU but finding much in the way it operates and the way in which we have conducted our membership to dislike intensely), I'd like to know the same. If the British state (not nation) votes to leave, what will we all have voted for? Remain is obviously easy: we vote for more of the same, subject to our right to bring our views to bear in all future negotiations for change and development. But exactly what is Brexit offering? It all seems so vague. It's not at all clear how their immigration policies would work, their finances don't seem to add up (and the £350 million a week lie is still on the Boris-bus), they haven't spelled out how Brexit would affect the massive service earnings of the City of London (and no, I don't like the City, but it does earn us a huge amount), and so on ...

Surely it's important for all, and particularly for the younger voters, to know exactly what we are in for if we choose Brexit (or if we fail to exercise out right to vote).

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Whether you believe George Osbourne and the ECB are acting out of a sense of financial responsibility or are enacting a vindictive, vicious, ideologically-driven attack against the poorest and most vulnerable members of society depends on where you stand on the left-right spectrum.

I would say that it doesn't depend at all on where you stand on the left-right spectrum. Rather, it depends on how cynical you are. I'm pretty left-wing myself. I think Osborne is dead wrong on austerity and is causing a huge amount of damage to the country by pursuing austerity. But it's perfectly possible to disagree with other people without doubting those people's sincerity.

Indeed, I would suggest that the continual needless assumptions of bad motives by 'the other lot' - and the way you're thinking about the EU and Greece is just one example of that - is exactly the kind of thinking that leads to disillusionment with politics, to people assuming that politicians are all the same and all out to screw the country (which is really not true), and ultimately in a small number of cases to some people thinking that it's therefore OK to tweet rape threats to female politicians, or to physically attack MPs - and we saw last week where that ultimately leads.

Far better, surely, to recognize that most people - whether they are bus drivers, MPs, teachers, civil servants, or economists working for the EU, do most of the time try their best to do what they think is right.

 

[Geezertronic]

I'll answer however I want. Both sides have been pretty poor at times but the leave campaign has been more misleading than remain. What would you say has been the most misleading stat used by remain?

It's not a stat but I have to say that the change in direction from Cameron, Corbyn and the like of previously "hating" the EU to singing the praises of the EU is the biggest misleading part of this whole debacle.

 

[Senex]

Far better, surely, to recognize that most people - whether they are bus drivers, MPs, teachers, civil servants, or economists working for the EU, do most of the time try their best to do what they think is right.

If you're a bus-driver, teacher, medic, butcher or baker or candlestick-maker, you're selling you labour to get enough money to live off. If you get some pleasure out of your work, so much the better, but that isn't always the case, even amongst the so-called professional classes. But MPs? Yes, there are certainly some who've had a career in the real world and feel that after that they have something to contribute to government. And there are some like Jo Cox who've not only had an outside career but who also have a genuine and long-standing association with the community the claim to represent. But there are all too many nowadays who just seem to be there because they have thought since their school or university days that they know what's best for us better than we do ourselves and are simply the fit and proper people to rule over us, parachuted into their safe constituencies after doing their time as a Westminster intern, "political advisor", local councillor for their party (both sides -- I'm not being party political), or whatever the non-job may be. I'm certainly not convinced that they try to do their best for us or try to do what is right rather than just try to climb the greasy pole.

(But then my bias is, as I've said before, that I've never during my adult life had an MP whom I could in any way consider as my representative.)

 

[TheKnightWho]

Well, since you have chosen a right-wing person to use as your example of the one who ideologically espouses austerity measures against "the poorest and most vulnerable members of society", perhaps he has been learning the lessons of history from those most definitely on the left-wing side of the political spectrum, such the leaders of the Pol Pot regime and Josef Stalin to name but two regimes in what I term recent history.

In the interests of fairness to Gutfright, this is even less relevant than issues with the Eurozone. Or should I bring up Hitler as an example of how the right can go wrong?

Hyperbolic examples help no-one.

 

[Railops]

The Metropolitan Elite will virtually all vote for Remain as they're now used to having 3 quid an hour Bulgarian nannies, gardeners and cleaners on tap.
Large areas of the UK will though vote Out and Cameron if he's still pm is going to have a totally divided country which may never heal. Whole towns are going to vote massively one way or the other and this is going to be toxic, that's not accounting for all the families split down the middle, loads will never recover.
Look at the miners strike which was pretty trivial compared to this vote with scars that will never ever heal.

 

[DarloRich]

The Metropolitan Elite will virtually all vote for Remain as they're now used to having 3 quid an hour Bulgarian nannies, gardeners and cleaners on tap.
Large areas of the UK will though vote Out and Cameron if he's still pm is going to have a totally divided country which may never heal. Whole towns are going to vote massively one way or the other and this is going to be toxic, that's not accounting for all the families split down the middle, loads will never recover.
Look at the miners strike which was pretty trivial compared to this vote with scars that will never ever heal.

see post above!

 

[RichmondCommu]

The Metropolitan Elite will virtually all vote for Remain as they're now used to having 3 quid an hour Bulgarian nannies, gardeners and cleaners on tap.
Large areas of the UK will though vote Out and Cameron if he's still pm is going to have a totally divided country which may never heal. Whole towns are going to vote massively one way or the other and this is going to be toxic, that's not accounting for all the families split down the middle, loads will never recover.

Is that what you want to see happen or what you think might happen?

 

[Railops]

Is that what you want to see happen or what you think might happen?

Well what do you think ? Your desperate for me to say I hope it will happen so I'm going to upset you.

Are you saying that there is no animosity amongst different voters ?

 

[RichmondCommu]

Well what do you think ? Your desperate for me to say I hope it will happen so I'm going to upset you.

Are you saying that there is no animosity amongst different voters ?

I'm not desperate for anything! I asked you a question and you managed to get yourself in a tizz.

For what it's worth I've not noticed any animosity depending on how people decide to vote. They'll still be my friends / family no matter what happens.

 

[Railops]

I'm not desperate for anything! I asked you a question and you managed to get yourself in a tizz.

For what it's worth I've not noticed any animosity depending on how people decide to vote. They'll still be my friends / family no matter what happens.

That's perfectly understandable, not everybody is going to be upset with different voting intentions of families but I've read a few things on the net that have quite shocked me.

 

[anme]

Any "leaver" want to start the day by explaining what they want to see after a vote to leave the EU? Do you favour the Norwegian model, remaining part of the single market? Or the Canadian model, where all relationships have to be separately negotiated? Or something else? Please say! You MUST have thought about this.

I realise that I've asked this question here many times, with only one response so far (favouring the Norwegian model). But I live in hope that someone else will reply.

Still no takers? Come on "leavers" - you must have some ideas?!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's perfectly understandable, not everybody is going to be upset with different voting intentions of families but I've read a few things on the net that have quite shocked me.

As we've seen from history, patriotism and nationalism are very dangerous impulses.

 

[RichmondCommu]

That's perfectly understandable, not everybody is going to be upset with different voting intentions of families but I've read a few things on the net that have quite shocked me.

Well there will always be a few extreme examples I suppose but I think most families just except each other for who they are.

In terms of the internet I think it has made the referendum campaign far more toxic then it should have been; just look at the nasty stuff flying around twitter.

 

[TheKnightWho]

That's perfectly understandable, not everybody is going to be upset with different voting intentions of families but I've read a few things on the net that have quite shocked me.

I think you might be projecting your own strong feelings and animosity onto everyone. Not everyone hates those who oppose them.

 

[Railops]

I think you might be projecting your own strong feelings and animosity onto everyone. Not everyone hates those who oppose them.

You really are a mystic seeing as you know what people are thinking.

I know you're intention is simply to cause trouble you're a long time expert at it, well go and abuse somebody else.

 

[TheKnightWho]

You really are a mystic seeing as you know what people are thinking.

I know you're intention is simply to cause trouble you're a long time expert at it, well go and abuse somebody else.

I think you missed the words "I think".

The fact that you paint yourself as a victim again and again (like here) is just another symptom of the far right in this country, who victimise others and then repeatedly moan and wail about how they're hard done by. See, for example, Farage complaining how he's a victim after Jo Cox was murdered.

As much as it's obvious that you don't like having your opinion challenged, or people questioning why you hold your worldview, unfortunately this is a forum for everyone to state their opinion. That you call mine 'abuse', yet you abjectly reject political correctness, often in quite an abusive way, really does say a lot about you frankly.

 

[Johnuk123]

I think you missed the words "I think".

The fact that you paint yourself as a victim again and again (like here) is just another symptom of the far right in this country, who victimise others and then repeatedly moan and wail about how they're hard done by. See, for example, Farage complaining how he's a victim after Jo Cox was murdered.

As much as it's obvious that you don't like having your opinion challenged, or people questioning why you hold your worldview, unfortunately this is a forum for everyone to state their opinion. That you call mine 'abuse', yet you abjectly reject political correctness, often in quite an abusive way, really does say a lot about you frankly.

I wonder if you realise what you sound like ?

 

[Railops]

I wonder if you realise what you sound like ?

Don't bother he isn't worth it.

 

[TheKnightWho]

I wonder if you realise what you sound like ?

I know exactly what I sound like. Notice that I only ever do it to your little clique of self-righteous far-rightists.

 

[miami]

The Metropolitan Elite will virtually all vote for Remain as they're now used to having 3 quid an hour Bulgarian nannies, gardeners and cleaners on tap.

So they're illegally employing people. They'll continue to be able to do that post-brexit, and will have more power as the nannies will be scared of being kicked out of the UK if they complain (right now the worst that will happen is they'll lose their job, but the employer will be in trouble for not paying minimum wage).

 

[Geezertronic]

I know exactly what I sound like. Notice that I only ever do it to your little clique of self-righteous far-rightists.

You do realise that comment makes you as bad as you think the posters you are referring to are don't you? If they are one extreme, you are the other :roll:

 

[Howardh]

So they're illegally employing people. They'll continue to be able to do that post-brexit, and will have more power as the nannies will be scared of being kicked out of the UK if they complain (right now the worst that will happen is they'll lose their job, but the employer will be in trouble for not paying minimum wage).

*Like*

 

[richa2002]

So they're illegally employing people. They'll continue to be able to do that post-brexit, and will have more power as the nannies will be scared of being kicked out of the UK if they complain (right now the worst that will happen is they'll lose their job, but the employer will be in trouble for not paying minimum wage).

I think it's a shame that you have such a poor opinion of Bulgarians to think that they would still come to work, regardless of whether it's legal or not.

 

[VauxhallandI]

*Like*

You beat me to it.

Another mismatched statement, I'm so looking forward to this magic wand sweeping us back to 1947 when living here was actually pretty **** I imagine.

 

[richa2002]

You beat me to it.

Another mismatched statement, I'm so looking forward to this magic wand sweeping us back to 1947 when living here was actually pretty **** I imagine.

Why you think becoming a self-governing nation would take us back to 1947 is beyond me but there you go.