Should We Leave the EU?

[TheKnightWho]

I think it's wrong to make sweeping generalisations about entire groups of people.

Not all of Brexit has been using the scaremongering defence to shut down literally all objections, but it doesn't mean it's not a Brexit argument.

The "cheap political points" argument has been common amongst the more zealous Brexit members of this forum in the last week, so it's an entirely fair point.

 

[Senex]

Looks as if the RSPCA is in favour of Brexit. This from central York this morning ...

 

[Gutfright]

Has nobody made a prediction of the referendum? I think it is going to be close. I wanted to offer a free dayticket of traintravel in the Netherlands, but than you have to collect it in Groningen. I say: Remain 53, Brexit 47 %.

I did make a prediction a while back: Remain 55%, Leave 45%

Remain will most probably win. This is good news for pro-EU voters who may be busy on Thursday. It's really not that important that they vote.

By contrast, it's vital that pro-Brexit people vote. We need to make the vote as close as possible. We need to send a message to the EU, and to our own pro EU politicians that we will no longer be taken for granted.

If you're undecided, then it makes sense to vote Leave. Your vote won't lead to us leaving the EU, but it will send the message that the European Union and our own politicians both need to buck up their ideas.

Nice picture. Can you explain what was logically wrong with the sentence "Anyway I'm not a racist so I don't want to target "foreigners"." (I'd ask you to substitute "discriminate against" for "target" - the meaning is the same but the language is clearer). Anyway, if you ignored the jerking of your knee you will have noticed that I actually proposed some solutions regarding housing. What did you think of those?

I liked them. I think that they could, if combined with Brexit, help a great deal with some of the housing problems we have now.

Also, this sudden concern about working class wages from the right seems somewhat strange. I thought low wages were good for our competitiveness? I thought that "getting on your bike" to find work was a good thing?

You'd have to ask a right-winger.

 

[Howardh]

Looks as if the RSPCA is in favour of Brexit. This from central York this morning ...

Notice the name of the shop next door

Meanwhile, looks like those that can are voting with their feet. According to Sky News (yes, OK) there's been a sudden and marked increase, on the number of UK citizens who are entitled, of applications for an Irish Passport.

Can we read anything into it, along the lines of those that can get out (and back to the EU) will get out? And we can hardly call them immigrants!

If Scotland were to become independent, I'd certainly look to moving/retiring there and hopefully gaining a Scottish/EU passport through residency (Dumfries is nice and has a good curling rink, rubbish football team but a good curling rink) although the biggest pull would be the health care of the elderly. Ie me in the next decade or so :cry:

 

[miami]

For a brief moment, I was thinking 'I actually hope that Leave win, and when it all goes base-over-apex, we can all say 'Right, so how are you going to fix this?'', but then realised that when it does go base-over-apex, it's going to hit me as well.

If we leave, and assuming the dire predictions come true (I don't believe they will - we'll be worse off, but not terrible), we will be accepted back into the EU in 10 years time, obviously we'll have to take the euro, and schengen, no rebate, and no vetos other than those afforded to other joiners, but it will put the nail in the coffin of the euro-skeptics.

 

[anme]

I did make a prediction a while back: Remain 55%, Leave 45%

Remain will most probably win. This is good news for pro-EU voters who may be busy on Thursday. It's really not that important that they vote.

By contrast, it's vital that pro-Brexit people vote. We need to make the vote as close as possible. We need to send a message to the EU, and to our own pro EU politicians that we will no longer be taken for granted.

If you're undecided, then it makes sense to vote Leave. Your vote won't lead to us leaving the EU, but it will send the message that the European Union and our own politicians both need to buck up their ideas.

You wrote this before. It is funnier than that Allo Allo script some other guy wrote, but it's still not that funny.

What's your view on the Norwegian solution? It is stupid but it sticks two fingers up to Brussels! Rule Britannia!

I liked them. I think that they could, if combined with Brexit, help a great deal with some of the housing problems we have now.

Why is Brexit needed to solve these problems? Are you aware of who is buying property in the UK?

 

[Gutfright]

You wrote this before. It is funnier than that Allo Allo script some other guy wrote, but it's still not that funny.

What's your view on the Norwegian solution? It is stupid but it sticks two fingers up to Brussels! Rule Britannia!



Why is Brexit needed to solve these problems? Are you aware of who is buying property in the UK?

If the Allo Allo script you refer to is the brilliant bit of political satire with the Rt Hon Lord Sir Earl Smithers Jones and Herr Vorsprungdurchtechnik, then I am indeed the awesome, creative and modest author.

The Norwegian solution is not a solution at all. Norway is a tiny country with a smaller population than London. Britain would be able to negotiate herself a far better deal with the EU.

Brexit is, as I've said, only part of the solution to housing problems. I'm aware that the hundreds of thousands of EU immigrants we will have coming in will all require housing. Are you?

 

[Howardh]

You wrote this before. It is funnier than that Allo Allo script some other guy wrote, but it's still not that funny.

What's your view on the Norwegian solution? It is stupid but it sticks two fingers up to Brussels! Rule Britannia!



Why is Brexit needed to solve these problems? Are you aware of who is buying property in the UK?

In London, I would guess it's those devoted EU countries' citizens such as Russia, China, Saudi Arabia etc buying up stock and making housing there more expensive as there's such a shortage? Rough guess though.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

If the Allo Allo script you refer to is the brilliant bit of political satire with the Rt Hon Lord Sir Earl Smithers Jones and Herr Vorsprungdurchtechnik, then I am indeed the awesome, creative and modest author.

The Norwegian solution is not a solution at all. Norway is a tiny country with a smaller population than London. Britain would be able to negotiate herself a far better deal with the EU.

Brexit is, as I've said, only part of the solution to housing problems. I'm aware that the hundreds of thousands of EU immigrants we will have coming in will all require housing. Are you?

Yes indeed, all those extra ones rushing in to beat the deadline who maybe wouldn't have come in the first place. Where will you put them? Surely you know as a Brexiter, you've worked it out, right?

 

[Gutfright]

Yes indeed, all those extra ones rushing in to beat the deadline who maybe wouldn't have come in the first place. Where will you put them? Surely you know as a Brexiter, you've worked it out, right?

A short-term glut followed by controlled immigration in the future is surely preferable to long-term uncontrollable EU immigration, no?

 

[Howardh]

A short-term glut followed by controlled immigration in the future is surely preferable to long-term uncontrollable EU immigration, no?

No. You, and I, have no idea what the future holds r/e immigration. If it increases, it will probably be steady and controlled by not allowing immigrants immediate benefits/welfare etc, as opposed to Brexit's idea of having to let in loads in one go whether they want them or not, and clogging up our services.

Mind you, there's a good argument that many of us will clear off at the thought of the UK being outside the EU, creating some space for the added immigrants Brexit are bringing in.

 

[Steveman]

Mind you, there's a good argument that many of us will clear off at the thought of the UK being outside the EU,

A few on here have said they're going to emigrate, I wonder if they'd be saying it if Leave had a good chance of winning, just tosh that's all.

No Remainers seemingly want to agree with Alan Sugar, strange that.

 

[anme]

If the Allo Allo script you refer to is the brilliant bit of political satire with the Rt Hon Lord Sir Earl Smithers Jones and Herr Vorsprungdurchtechnik, then I am indeed the awesome, creative and modest author.

Maybe you could post a link for anyone who missed it? I do recommend that people give it a read - says more about English culture than I ever could.

The Norwegian solution is not a solution at all. Norway is a tiny country with a smaller population than London. Britain would be able to negotiate herself a far better deal with the EU.

You have stated this before, and ignored all attempts at reason.

1. Norway accepted the four European principles of free movement of people (you and I), goods (tangible things), services (intangible things except money) and capital (money). Are you prepared to do the same? I am strongly in favour of this, but I expect most Brexiters aren't. However, as we've seen Brexiters aren't really "detail" people, so they may well like it anyway.

2. Norway has *a lot* of oil and gas. Over 30% of gas used in the EU comes from Norway.

 

[Gutfright]

No. You, and I, have no idea what the future holds r/e immigration. If it increases, it will probably be steady and controlled by not allowing immigrants immediate benefits/welfare etc, as opposed to Brexit's idea of having to let in loads in one go whether they want them or not, and clogging up our services.

Mind you, there's a good argument that many of us will clear off at the thought of the UK being outside the EU, creating some space for the added immigrants Brexit are bringing in.

I've got a question for you. You've the owner of the hottest nightclub in town. Everybody wants to get in. Obviously, you want as many customers as possible. The problem is that health and safety regulations limit your capacity to 2,000 people.

You get a call from your bouncers. They were all travelling together and the car they were in got a flat tyre. They're all going to be late, which means that for one hour there will be no bouncers on the door.

Do you tell the bouncers not to bother coming at all, and just let unlimited people swarm into the club?

 

[Howardh]

A few on here have said they're going to emigrate, I wonder if they'd be saying it if Leave had a good chance of winning, just tosh that's all.

No Remainers seemingly want to agree with Alan Sugar, strange that.

I'll hold my hands up and say my plans, probably 80% certain, were after I'd finished caring for mum and dad (late 80's) would have been to sell their house, and with that + my savings + UK pensions (I get my first two in 2018) move completely to Spain (Ibiza or Formentera). However the threat of leaving the EU and being subjected to extra paperwork, and being treated as an "alien" has put me off, so I'm more than likely to stay here, clogging up the health services at least, and simply go there for extended holidays.

OK, admits a lot of that is in the air, not much might change EU/UK wise...and circumstances here could change, hey mum and dad could outlive me!

But surely leaving the EU will put off a number of retirees, and maybe some will return home if life in the EU becomes significantly more difficult? Especially if they are ill/infirm...and THEY will add extra stress to our infrastructure.

 

[anme]

I've got a question for you. You've the owner of the hottest nightclub in town. Everybody wants to get in. Obviously, you want as many customers as possible. The problem is that health and safety regulations limit your capacity to 2,000 people.

You get a call from your bouncers. They were all travelling together and the car they were in got a flat tyre. They're all going to be late, which means that for one hour there will be no bouncers on the door.

Do you tell the bouncers not to bother coming at all, and just let unlimited people swarm into the club?

I guess your answer is to set fire to the place so nobody will want to go there any more.

BTW comparing the UK to the hottest nightclub in town is rather laughable - check out http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...p/Migration_and_migrant_population_statistics

 

[Howardh]

I've got a question for you. You've the owner of the hottest nightclub in town. Everybody wants to get in. Obviously, you want as many customers as possible. The problem is that health and safety regulations limit your capacity to 2,000 people.

You get a call from your bouncers. They were all travelling together and the car they were in got a flat tyre. They're all going to be late, which means that for one hour there will be no bouncers on the door.

Do you tell the bouncers not to bother coming at all, and just let unlimited people swarm into the club?

You mean if capacity is 2000, there's 1800 in, and some are leaving to go to other clubs and suddenly, out of nowhere, 500 turn up in one go instead of the expected 100? I dunno, that's problem for Brexit to solve, they've caused it. You've basically made my point for me. Vote to stay and keep control.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I guess your answer is to set fire to the place so nobody will want to go there any more.

Brilliant! I wish I'd thought of that...trash the place, charge a fortune to get in and for the beer and the place will be empty! Problem solved!

 

[Gutfright]

I guess your answer is to set fire to the place so nobody will want to go there any more.

BTW comparing the UK to the hottest nightclub in town is rather laughable - check out http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...p/Migration_and_migrant_population_statistics

The very statistics you provided show that Germany reported the largest total number of immigrants (884.9 thousand) in 2014, followed by the United Kingdom (632.0 thousand).

Would you be happier if I amended my question to "You're the owner of the second hottest nightclub in town..."?

 

[Howardh]

The very statistics you provided show that Germany reported the largest total number of immigrants (884.9 thousand) in 2014, followed by the United Kingdom (632.0 thousand).

Would you be happier if I amended my question to "You're the owner of the second hottest nightclub in town..."?

We'll do what the above said, trash it up and no-one will want to come. Brexit's plan. Trouble is, it could empty the place and you won't be getting a pension as there aren't any takings, and the rent needs paying.

 

[Gutfright]

You mean if capacity is 2000, there's 1800 in, and some are leaving to go to other clubs and suddenly, out of nowhere, 500 turn up in one go instead of the expected 100? I dunno, that's problem for Brexit to solve, they've caused it. You've basically made my point for me. Vote to stay and keep control?

Interesting use of the word "control".

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

 

[anme]

The very statistics you provided show that Germany reported the largest total number of immigrants (884.9 thousand) in 2014, followed by the United Kingdom (632.0 thousand).

Would you be happier if I amended my question to "You're the owner of the second hottest nightclub in town..."?

Exactly. As a facts-man yourself, you will know that the UK is one of the largest countries in the EU. And that per head of population, the UK took the 10th largest number of immigrants. We were a little bit ahead of Lithuania and Romania. But don't just take my word for it: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...grants,_2014_(per_1_000_inhabitants)_YB16.png

Scary stuff!

 

[Howardh]

Interesting use of the word "control".

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

OK, let's go back to your nightclub. Under Brexit, you have your 1000 capacity, it's full and there are heavies on the door.

Unfortunately the back door is wide open and unguarded, and 100 unknowns have entered the club from the taxi-rank and are causing a crush because the capacity's reached and you don't know why.

 

[Gutfright]

Exactly. As a facts-man yourself, you will know that the UK is one of the largest countries in the EU. And that per head of population, the UK took the 10th largest number of immigrants. We were a little bit ahead of Lithuania and Romania. But don't just take my word for it: http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statis...grants,_2014_(per_1_000_inhabitants)_YB16.png

Scary stuff!

If you take the number of immigrants coming into Britain and divide it by the number of stars in the universe, it becomes a very tiny number. Hardly worth worrying about.

If you take the number of immigrants coming in and divide it by the number of people already here, you get a similarly meaningless statistic. Well done.

 

[EM2]

I've got a question for you. You've the owner of the hottest nightclub in town. Everybody wants to get in. Obviously, you want as many customers as possible. The problem is that health and safety regulations limit your capacity to 2,000 people.

You get a call from your bouncers. They were all travelling together and the car they were in got a flat tyre. They're all going to be late, which means that for one hour there will be no bouncers on the door.

Do you tell the bouncers not to bother coming at all, and just let unlimited people swarm into the club?

Why have you let in anyone at all if you don't have bouncers on duty?
The only ones that are allowed in to our nightclub are the members, everyone else has to be vetted.

But let's say you and your mates are in an OK nightclub. It's not brilliant but the music is pretty good, everybody's getting on and there's been no trouble or fighting.
Then one of your mates says 'This is rubbish, let's go somewhere else'. He can't remember exactly where it is, but insists it'll be brilliant.
So you leave and start wandering, looking for this brilliant club. After a couple of hours, you can't find it, so you go back to the other club, but now they won't let you back in.
And now it's 1am, and you're all in the kebab shop, arguing about whose fault it is that your good night out turned crap.

 

[yorksrob]

You tell me. Presumably you've researched this in detail as it seems to be an important point for you.

Anyway I'm not a racist so I don't want to target "foreigners". I'm often a foreigner myself. I would look at making property purchase for investment rather than accommodation less attractive. There are lots of ways to do this - e.g. taxing a proportion of the property value each year for empty houses or flats, removing buy to let tax breaks, improved conditions for tenants (I wonder if people understand how terrible conditions are for tenants in the UK compared to elsewhere in Europe), etc. But inside or outside the EU, this won't happen in the UK as British people are so moronic that they LOVE housing bubbles. That's democracy for you.

So not only does your argument rely on calling the British electorate stupid, it also implies our continental neighbours are operating a racist policy.

For what it's worth, the policy targets non-residents, rather than "foreigners". There is a difference.

 

[Howardh]

Why have you let in anyone at all if you don't have bouncers on duty?
The only ones that are allowed in to our nightclub are the members, everyone else has to be vetted.

But let's say you and your mates are in an OK nightclub. It's not brilliant but the music is pretty good, everybody's getting on and there's been no trouble or fighting.
Then one of your mates says 'This is rubbish, let's go somewhere else'. He can't remember exactly where it is, but insists it'll be brilliant.
So you leave and start wandering, looking for this brilliant club. After a couple of hours, you can't find it, so you go back to the other club, but now they won't let you back in.
And now it's 1am, and you're all in the kebab shop, arguing about whose fault it is that your good night out turned crap.

And because they've lost their membership card, it will cost them a fortune to renew as they've lost their discount.

 

[anme]

If you take the number of immigrants coming into Britain and divide it by the number of stars in the universe, it becomes a very tiny number. Hardly worth worrying about.

If you take the number of immigrants coming in and divide it by the number of people already here, you get a similarly meaningless statistic. Well done.

Are you arguing that we shouldn't take into account the number of people living in a country when assessing the significance of a certain amount of immigration into that country?

If the answer to that question is "yes", I have another question for you - are you really arguing that?

 

[Gutfright]

OK, let's go back to your nightclub. Under Brexit, you have your 1000 capacity, it's full and there are heavies on the door.

Unfortunately the back door is wide open and unguarded, and 100 unknowns have entered the club from the taxi-rank and are causing a crush because the capacity's reached and you don't know why.

Every day is effing Groundhog Day in this thread!

Firing all the bouncers is not the solution to the back door problem.

 

[anme]

So not only does your argument rely on calling the British electorate stupid, it also implies our continental neighbours are operating a racist policy.

For what it's worth, the policy targets non-residents, rather than "foreigners". There is a difference.

Are you arguing that the British attitude to house prices is anything other than stupid?

I was also targetting "non-residents" with my completely legal tax on unoccupied properties (which we might define to include rarely used second homes). This was in contrast to the idea advocated by others that we discriminate against foreigners.

 

[Howardh]

Every day is effing Groundhog Day in this thread!

Firing all the bouncers is not the solution to the back door problem.

Because you won't accept that Brexit's immigration policy is seriously flawed! If you put your new bouncers on the Irish border, the heavier, stronger and more tooled-up bouncers who think it's their territory might turn up for a chat.

 

[Gutfright]

Are you arguing that we shouldn't take into account the number of people living in a country when assessing the significance of a certain amount of immigration into that country?

If the answer to that question is "yes", I have another question for you - are you really arguing that?

I'm saying, and the statistics you provided back this up, that the UK accepts the second most immigrants of any EU country.

Or, to put it another way. We are the second hottest nightclub in town.

You can argue that Lithuania and Romania are just as desirable to immigrants if you want, and hope nobody notices the sophistry used to arrive at that conclusion, but I for one am not buying it.