Derby-Bristol electrification 'in 10 to 15 years', says Transport Secretary

[quantinghome]

Agreed. The critical factor is what sort of heavy rail connecting service is provided from Nottingham, as the tram is far too slow for anywhere other than the western suburbs.

It would be faster to use HS2 (19mins) + tram (30mins) to the city centre than the current journey (74mins), although some may prefer a direct journey even if slower. Nevertheless I agree that a quick rail shuttle service would be beneficial. The HS2 journey times assume 17 minutes from the East Midlands Hub to Nottingham Midland, which likely includes some allowance for transfer time (the Meadowhall - Sheffield journey is given as 10 minutes in the same document, but the current journey is about 5).

 

[HowardGWR]

Would the experience of SE pax transferring to HS1 be significant as evidence? There one ends up at St P, although not many will have that as their end destination. Yet transfer to the 395s is, AIUI, large.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Where would you all start? Bromsgrove south to Bristol - or Derby south to Birmingham - or other when electrifying? Where would be the most sensible place to start such that the infrastructure could start being used as soon as a stretch was juiced up?

 

[edwin_m]

Where would you all start? Bromsgrove south to Bristol - or Derby south to Birmingham - or other when electrifying? Where would be the most sensible place to start such that the infrastructure could start being used as soon as a stretch was juiced up?

I'd suggest Birmingham to Derby would be first as this would allow the Birmingham-Nottingham to go electric, but it's a bit marginal as the other 3TPH would all have to remain as diesels. Doesn't make any difference which end it is started. Going south from Birmingham there's nothing that can be turned over to electric until the wires meet the GW at Westerleigh, unless Worcester is also to be included in which case it might be worth doing that bit first.

If bi-modes were available then electrification would be useable as soon as completed rather than having to reach anywhere in particular (excepting the feeder stations!). However it's less likely that bi-modes would be available for regional journeys such as Birmingham-Nottingham, so the same sequence probably still applies.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I'd suggest Birmingham to Derby would be first as this would allow the Birmingham-Nottingham to go electric, but it's a bit marginal as the other 3TPH would all have to remain as diesels. Doesn't make any difference which end it is started. Going south from Birmingham there's nothing that can be turned over to electric until the wires meet the GW at Westerleigh, unless Worcester is also to be included in which case it might be worth doing that bit first.

If bi-modes were available then electrification would be useable as soon as completed rather than having to reach anywhere in particular (excepting the feeder stations!). However it's less likely that bi-modes would be available for regional journeys such as Birmingham-Nottingham, so the same sequence probably still applies.

Also - keep seeing references to New Street reduction of diesel fumes - so (slight OT) Birm NS- Water- Orton-Nuneaton + up to Derby and then south from Bromsgrove but as you say - include Worcester and that may keep most politicians happy too.

 

[Harbornite]

Also - keep seeing references to New Street reduction of diesel fumes - so (slight OT) Birm NS- Water- Orton-Nuneaton + up to Derby and then south from Bromsgrove but as you say - include Worcester and that may keep most politicians happy too.

A direct Birmingham- Nuneaton- Derby electric service could be a possibility, or are you suggesting that both the Derby and the Nuneaton routes should be electrified, which makes sense. I still think that doing Bristol-Birmingham first is a better idea because the distance is shorter until wires are reached, if that makes sense, because GWML electrification to Bristol will most likely be finished before MML electrification.

As for Worcester, it could be a potential terminus for some cross city services but it would require a major resignalling.

 

[The Planner]

Bristol Birmingham first doesnt release or replace anything. The distance is neither here nor there really.

 

[edwin_m]

A direct Birmingham- Nuneaton- Derby electric service could be a possibility, or are you suggesting that both the Derby and the Nuneaton routes should be electrified, which makes sense. I still think that doing Bristol-Birmingham first is a better idea because the distance is shorter until wires are reached, if that makes sense, because GWML electrification to Bristol will most likely be finished before MML electrification.

As for Worcester, it could be a potential terminus for some cross city services but it would require a major resignalling.

By the time anything happens on Bristol-Derby, both MML and GWML electrifications will be finished.

Bromsgrove to Westerleigh is 65 miles, plus a bit for Gloucester and Worcester if included. Derby to Proof House is only about 41 miles, plus a bit for the alternative through Whitacre and the connection up to Lichfield if included. So even though Derby to Birmingham has more four-track it is still likely to be the smaller scheme.

If the Nuneaton route is included, which doesn't appear to be proposed and isn't in my mileage as above, then Nottingham would be more logical than Derby as a through service destination.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

If the Nuneaton route is included, which doesn't appear to be proposed and isn't in my mileage as above, then Nottingham would be more logical than Derby as a through service destination.

The last thing I want to do is turn into a crayonista but it always surprised me Nuneaton Bham was not done in the 80s. It is such a useful diversionary route. Of course in those days the Class 58 haulage bashers would have shot me. I guess I am not thinking logically as it does not really remove diesel particulates from Bham NS unless you have IEP style dual diesel/25 KV AC capability.

 

[SpacePhoenix]

Which section (Bristol-Birmingham or Birmingham-Derby) sees the most freight originating from it that could go electric all the way once Bristol-Derby gets electrified?

 

[The Planner]

Birmingham Derby by a long way. Freightliner, Jaguar, EMR, Hams Hall, Birch Coppice all on the line or close proximity. Whether they could go full distance on wires is unlikely.

 

[59CosG95]

Birmingham Derby by a long way. Freightliner, Jaguar, EMR, Hams Hall, Birch Coppice all on the line or close proximity. Whether they could go full distance on wires is unlikely.

It'd probably make sense to electrify to the WCML at Nuneaton as well in conjunction with the Derby line. That way, the majority of Hams Hall and Lawley Street flows could go electric.

 

[ashworth]

Agreed. The critical factor is what sort of heavy rail connecting service is provided from Nottingham, as the tram is far too slow for anywhere other than the western suburbs.

These connections also need to be reliable and guaranteed and if possible cross platform so that people are not having to hurry across bridges carrying heavy luggage. Arriving in Toton late just to see your connecting train departing will not encourage passengers to use HS2.
HS2 services will not be held at Toton if the connections from Nottingham or Derby are running a few minutes late. However, if the connection time at Toton is too long there will be little advantage over using classic routes.

 

[edwin_m]

It'd probably make sense to electrify to the WCML at Nuneaton as well in conjunction with the Derby line. That way, the majority of Hams Hall and Lawley Street flows could go electric.

Plus the Sutton Park line to give access via Walsall and Bescot to the Electric Spine southwards. Probably the Solihull route too so all the freight doesn't have to go via Coventry.

 

[The Planner]

Seems a very long way round to get on the electric spine. Electrify to Nuneaton and head down to Bletchley and East West. Hell of a lot easier to timetable.

 

[Harbornite]

By the time anything happens on Bristol-Derby, both MML and GWML electrifications will be finished.

Bromsgrove to Westerleigh is 65 miles, plus a bit for Gloucester and Worcester if included. Derby to Proof House is only about 41 miles, plus a bit for the alternative through Whitacre and the connection up to Lichfield if included. So even though Derby to Birmingham has more four-track it is still likely to be the smaller scheme.

If the Nuneaton route is included, which doesn't appear to be proposed and isn't in my mileage as above, then Nottingham would be more logical than Derby as a through service destination.

That's an interesting post as I wasn't aware of the distances. Another potential issue with Birmingham- Bristol is the additional expense of electrifying the fast lines between Kings Norton and Cofton.

Which section (Bristol-Birmingham or Birmingham-Derby) sees the most freight originating from it that could go electric all the way once Bristol-Derby gets electrified?

Birmingham- Bristol has lost quite a bit of freight in the last year and a half, including coke from Margam to Redcar, Coal empties from Rugeley (Freightliner) and Ratcliffe (Colas), petroleum empties from Westerleigh to Lindsey and any workings to Ironbridge. In addition, the number of nuclear flask workings has been reduced due to the decommission of Berkeley Power station.

The last thing I want to do is turn into a crayonista but it always surprised me Nuneaton Bham was not done in the 80s. It is such a useful diversionary route. I guess I am not thinking logically as it does not really remove diesel particulates from Bham NS unless you have IEP style dual diesel/25 KV AC capability.

It'd probably make sense to electrify to the WCML at Nuneaton as well in conjunction with the Derby line. That way, the majority of Hams Hall and Lawley Street flows could go electric.

Electrifying it would have been a good idea and if it does happen then it could also provide opportunities for Leicester/ Nottingham to Birmingham electric passenger services once the MML is electrified.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Which section (Bristol-Birmingham or Birmingham-Derby) sees the most freight originating from it that could go electric all the way once Bristol-Derby gets electrified?

Birmingham Derby by a long way. Freightliner, Jaguar, EMR, Hams Hall, Birch Coppice all on the line or close proximity. Whether they could go full distance on wires is unlikely.

Have a look at the WCML. Plenty of freight trains running purely on electrified lines but diesel hauled throughout, such as Mossend - Daventry. Of course not many freight terminals are actually electrified because that restricts loading methods and it's cheaper to diesel haul throughout than have to use a separate diesel shunter at each end. I suspect we are very many years away from seeing any worthwhile increase in electrically hauled freight.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Have a look at the WCML. Plenty of freight trains running purely on electrified lines but diesel hauled throughout, such as Mossend - Daventry. Of course not many freight terminals are actually electrified because that restricts loading methods and it's cheaper to diesel haul throughout than have to use a separate diesel shunter at each end. I suspect we are very many years away from seeing any worthwhile increase in electrically hauled freight.

Electrically hauled freight will increase slowly, maybe a little more rapidly if the Class 88 proves to be a successful design, as it removes the need for electrified reception roads and diesel shunters.

Switzerland manages very well with battery shunters which charge from the overhead lines, IPEMU style. The next test for this will be what happens at Grangemouth and how much, if any, of the port railway is electrified by Forth Ports.

The good news for electrification of freight is that power that's available - the Class 88 is a 4MW locomotive, the Class 68 just 2.8MW, that translates into faster acceleration, higher top end speeds where stock can manage that, and more flexible pathing options where an electric loco can get from one loop to another more quickly, so less of the peak periods are off limit to freight.

The pathing flexibility, ability to haul longer loads, the higher speeds and the reduction in emissions is ultimately likely to result in Government initiatives to replace diesel locomotives with electric ones.

--

It's also worth remembering that whilst some electrification projects won't see much if any services convert from diesel to electric, they'll have to be done if you want to keep pushing further north, south, east and west to the extremities of the country. It might be the case that on a few lines, we have just one or two bi-mode units making use of the OLE every hour for the first 5 or 10 years, until wiring spreads further.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It's also worth remembering that whilst some electrification projects won't see much if any services convert from diesel to electric, they'll have to be done if you want to keep pushing further north, south, east and west to the extremities of the country. It might be the case that on a few lines, we have just one or two bi-mode units making use of the OLE every hour for the first 5 or 10 years, until wiring spreads further.

Indeed.
There is still the prospect of only 1tph electric between Cardiff and Swansea, because there is no plan (yet) for Bristol-Cardiff GWR services to go electric, or for Newport-Cardiff-Swansea ATW electric services.

 

[The Ham]

It's also worth remembering that whilst some electrification projects won't see much if any services convert from diesel to electric, they'll have to be done if you want to keep pushing further north, south, east and west to the extremities of the country. It might be the case that on a few lines, we have just one or two bi-mode units making use of the OLE every hour for the first 5 or 10 years, until wiring spreads further.

Quite, it is like when the Electric Spine was announced there was a fair amount of criticism that it would do little for XC, yet once it is done and the line from Bristol to Derby is done and a few other projects then there could be services from the Scottish Central Belt down to the south coast or Bristol.

Yes, the very long distance services would still require DMU's/bimodal, however it could well be that some are split with a generous overlap so as to minimise the number of people who have to change trains (or at least give them a choice of 2 or 3 stations where to make the change to minimise the impact on any one station). This would also mean that disruption could be less far reaching.

 

[Class 170101]

Bristol Birmingham first doesnt release or replace anything. The distance is neither here nor there really.

What about Cross Country services between Bristol and Manchester going electric?

Indeed.
There is still the prospect of only 1tph electric between Cardiff and Swansea, because there is no plan (yet) for Bristol-Cardiff GWR services to go electric, or for Newport-Cardiff-Swansea ATW electric services.

Could the Welsh Assembly's hand not be forced by PRM-TSI 2020 deadline to build some electric trains or take on displaced EMUs from London to cover the ATW services referred to above considering 14x units are unlikely to be 2020 compliant?

 

[The Planner]

What about Cross Country services between Bristol and Manchester going electric?

How many does that replace? Doesnt help with the ones from/to the West Country and do they not get diagrammed to interwork the Bournemouths?

 

[Class 170101]

How many does that replace? Doesnt help with the ones from/to the West Country and do they not get diagrammed to interwork the Bournemouths?

No idea on all counts however I would have thought it possible to diagram in such a way as to maximise electric interworking.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

No idea on all counts however I would have thought it possible to diagram in such a way as to maximise electric interworking.

You're drifting into the realms of having more units than you can diagram effectively, just so you can maximise electric traction on newly electrified routes.

What would be a massive help is a bi-mode 23m regional unit which could replace Class 158 type stock at a couple of franchises. Hitachi, we need a demonstrator.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Could the Welsh Assembly's hand not be forced by PRM-TSI 2020 deadline to build some electric trains or take on displaced EMUs from London to cover the ATW services referred to above considering 14x units are unlikely to be 2020 compliant?

Like everything else in Wales it's down to the next franchise.
But the dilemma is that Newport-Swansea electrics would mean cutting through trains beyond those points (until they were wired).
It's the same with Bath-Bristol-Cardiff.
Plus, of course the stalled Valleys electrification.

 

[Class 170101]

You're drifting into the realms of having more units than you can diagram effectively, just so you can maximise electric traction on newly electrified routes.

What would be a massive help is a bi-mode 23m regional unit which could replace Class 158 type stock at a couple of franchises. Hitachi, we need a demonstrator.

Granted for a Nottingham to Cardiff service but of course the AT300 would ideal for Bristol to Manchester. Of course the franchise map and / or SLC be amended to remove anything that runs off the wires (eg south of Bristol).

Didn't Hitachi say their ATxxx design was modular so a train of the type you suggest was already possible?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Granted for a Nottingham to Cardiff service but of course the AT300 would ideal for Bristol to Manchester. Of course the franchise map and / or SLC be amended to remove anything that runs off the wires (eg south of Bristol).

Didn't Hitachi say their ATxxx design was modular so a train of the type you suggest was already possible?

There's always the option for routes such as Bristol to Manchester to exist outside of the XC franchise, with the services sitting within the Great Western franchise initially, particularly if it's to be bi-mode AT300 operated.

Alternatively, we just bite the bullet and admit there's going to be some Voyager stock sitting about for an hour or two a day, and either find additional destinations to service with them, or just suck it up.

 

[The Ham]

There's always the option for routes such as Bristol to Manchester to exist outside of the XC franchise, with the services sitting within the Great Western franchise initially, particularly if it's to be bi-mode AT300 operated.

Alternatively, we just bite the bullet and admit there's going to be some Voyager stock sitting about for an hour or two a day, and either find additional destinations to service with them, or just suck it up.

It depends on the existing frequency and how long the units would be spare for, but with a lot of units released (due to electrification) it could be that there is a recast of the services and a potential increase in frequency (especially post HS2 when there could be more paths through Birmingham, although that would go against the plan for HS2 not to bring any benefits to the Southwest) as if services (both DMU and electrical) were more frequent then it could be that the turn around times could be managed to a more acceptable level. In doing so it would also cater for passenger growth.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Electrically hauled freight will increase slowly, maybe a little more rapidly if the Class 88 proves to be a successful design, as it removes the need for electrified reception roads and diesel shunters.

Thanks for your optimistic posting. I'm not against electrically hauled freight but it is sad to see how high a proportion of WCML freight is diesel hauled.

Switzerland manages very well with battery shunters which charge from the overhead lines, IPEMU style. The next test for this will be what happens at Grangemouth and how much, if any, of the port railway is electrified by Forth Ports.

Interesting possibility. I wonder if *anyone* in the industry here has even considered it. Perhaps Roger Ford could investigate.

The good news for electrification of freight is that power that's available - the Class 88 is a 4MW locomotive, the Class 68 just 2.8MW, that translates into faster acceleration, higher top end speeds where stock can manage that, and more flexible pathing options where an electric loco can get from one loop to another more quickly, so less of the peak periods are off limit to freight.

The pathing flexibility, ability to haul longer loads, the higher speeds and the reduction in emissions is ultimately likely to result in Government initiatives to replace diesel locomotives with electric ones.

So actually a lot riding on the success of the Class 88.

It's also worth remembering that whilst some electrification projects won't see much if any services convert from diesel to electric, they'll have to be done if you want to keep pushing further north, south, east and west to the extremities of the country. It might be the case that on a few lines, we have just one or two bi-mode units making use of the OLE every hour for the first 5 or 10 years, until wiring spreads further.

Not unlike the Manchester Airport branch. Electrified from opening but of the normal 9tph for many years no more than 2 were electrics. Even now it's no better than 4.

 

[HowardGWR]

Apart from electrification being 'a good thing' I don't see a sufficiently frequent service to get planners very excited about this stretch, at least south of Bromsgrove.

I looked at today's services through Cheltenham, excluding Swindon-destined ones, and you have about three or four each way at most in the off-peak, and that includes Nottingham to South Wales via Lydney Junction, (they turn off into Glos Central).

Bi-modes, as enthusiastically now endorsed by the NR Chairman, seem to be the best way forward?