EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Putting your blatant snobbery to one side, we had a system that wasn't working for the majority, and they replaced it with something you don't like.

That's democracy. If you don't want decisions like this to occur again, work out a way to disenfranchise Britain's poorest citizens.

It is not "snobbery" but a long lifetime of experience of life and world affairs in general that enables me to make considered judgements. You would do well to carefully read my posting rather than emulating a posting equivalent of a dramatic scene from "Les Miserables" in your posting response to mine, then you would have found that my posting was specifically made in response to a comment concerning that fact that Moody have cut Britain's credit rating to negative.

Pray therefore, in answer to these posting comments on the actuality of the matter, tell me how on earth you expect "a disenfranchisement of Britain's poorest citizens" to make any sense to those in the Moody organisation when deciding to change the credit rating of Britain.

 

[Antman]

Quite a few Leave voters at work seemed pretty disheartened by the £350m a week for the NHS lie; with some even saying they won't bother about voting or paying attention to the next general election.

Funnily enough I've never heard any leave voters express such sentiments in fact most are looking forward to a brighter future free from the shackles of the EU.

I wonder what you'll be saying if other EU countries have referendums and vote to leave as seems highly likely?

 

[TheKnightWho]

Erm dude, do you expect the EU to launch a trade embargo against us? Of course we're going to trade they can't afford not to.

Remember the Italian banking crisis is a thing. They need all the money they can get their hands on. They simply can't afford to play silly beggars.

No-one thinks trade with the EU will stop. However, when jobs and businesses move from the UK, we benefit from trade less.

It's not a hard concept - Christ!

 

[Senex]

Junker seems to be trying to take a very hard approach, ...

Should anyone be at all surprised at that?

 

[daodao]

One consequence of the vote on 23/6/16 will be an adverse impact on Anglo-Scottish cross-border rail services, once Scotland leaves the UK to remain in the EU, particularly if it is forced to join the Schengen zone in order to do so, resulting in a "hard" border. Will the sleeper services survive? Even in mainland Europe, such services are disappearing rapidly. While the Borders line might eventually be re-extended to Hawick, there is now no prospect ever of reopening the whole Waverley line to Carlisle.

 

[anme]

Sir Humphrey lives on! Actually it's a great piece that underlines the current mess. nearest I can come up with is....
"Do you want to marry Brenda, yes/no".
"No".
"Okay then, here's your new wife, Norah".
"Oh my gawd, why didn't you show me the picture before I said no to Brenda??"

Nicely put.

But the picture of Norah (i.e. the options on leaving) was available before the referendum, and if anyone voted leave, or induced anyone to vote leave, without looking at it they are a moron.

 

[DelayRepay]

People have a problem with immigration - clearly. They're now telling foreigners in the street, in restaurants and even in their own homes (via notes posted through letterboxes), that soon they'll be going home, and are claiming a victory against immigrants. Including those who aren't from the EU.

This depresses me. I always knew there was an undercurrent of racism and xenophobia and hatred of people who are different in this country but I did not realise it was so wide spread. I do not believe all, or even the majority of Leave voters are racist but the result does seem to have given legitimacy to those who are.

I have also heard of foreigners being told, by neighbours, colleagues and strangers that they will be going "home" soon. I was in a shop yesterday where two staff were putting out a display of suitcases. One said to the other "these will sell well when all the immigrants have to start packing to leave".

So even though I accept the result, I worry about the future and I worry about this undercurrent of hatred that seems to have been unleashed. I have a degree in Economics but we all know experts are not to be trusted, so I understand that you want to wait and see if my fears about unemployment come true.

But my fears about hatred seem to be coming true, only two days after the result and before anyone has even started to think about what happens to foreign people who live here.

This is why we need answers and cannot afford to sit around waiting. There are many people who, for whatever reason have made Britain their home and are now scared.

Not always a fan of Gordon Brown but I do agree with his statement "This is not the Britain I know. This is not the Britain I love. The Britain I know is better than the Britain of these debates, of insults, of posters."

 

[anme]

There will be a bit of give and take, but we're not a tiny little loser country like Norway and we don't have to accept free movement. Junker will want to make an example of the UK, but ultimately I don't expect them to cut off their nose to spite their face.

Nonsense. *Think* about it.

If the EU allows the UK to have all the benefits of EU membership without the responsibilities such as freedom of movement (*) they will create a domino effect of the far right parties across Europe and there may be further referendums across Europe. They will not do it as it could destroy the EU. It will be free movement of people and free movement of goods. Both or neither.

Losing free trade with the UK would hurt some EU countries a bit. The *most* any EU country exports to the UK is 7% of their trade. Losing free trade with the EU would hurt the UK a lot. The UK exports more than 40% of its trade to the EU. This is not an even contest - the UK will lose much much more.

The "tiny little loser country" Norway supplies 30% of the EU's gas, BTW.

I'm actually glad to see that a few people are finally saying what they want after a leave vote. I have been asking for months.

So, which do you want? Both free trade and freedom of movement, or neither. Those are the options.

(*) Many British people (especially young people) have just realised that freedom of movement is in fact an amazing right and privilege, and a very very good thing that they may be about to lose.
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I'm fine with that. Let's revisit this thread next year?

No! We need to decide what to do now! This is a critical point in the UK's history. Surely you can see that?!

 

[kermit]

People have a problem with immigration - clearly. They're now telling foreigners in the street, in restaurants and even in their own homes (via notes posted through letterboxes), that soon they'll be going home, and are claiming a victory against immigrants. Including those who aren't from the EU.

If I witness anybody engaging in such despicable activity, I think the only moral choice is to try to ensure as many witnesses as possible see what is happening, call the Police, and go out of my way to reassure the victims that they are supported and valued as human beings. The Courts need to get a swift message out - before our own Kristallnacht ensues.

 

[anme]

To be honest I don't see how we can have whatever position ends up as the final 'This is what we want leave to be' foisted upon us without it being put to some form of vote. I believe that would have, what was the phrase? Oh yes, a democratic deficit.

I agree. There will be a huge fight in the coming months between those who want to remain in the EEA with free movement of goods and people, and those who want to leave completely. This should not just be decided as part of the Tory leadership election.

 

[Antman]

This depresses me. I always knew there was an undercurrent of racism and xenophobia and hatred of people who are different in this country but I did not realise it was so wide spread. I do not believe all, or even the majority of Leave voters are racist but the result does seem to have given legitimacy to those who are.

I have also heard of foreigners being told, by neighbours, colleagues and strangers that they will be going "home" soon. I was in a shop yesterday where two staff were putting out a display of suitcases. One said to the other "these will sell well when all the immigrants have to start packing to leave".

So even though I accept the result, I worry about the future and I worry about this undercurrent of hatred that seems to have been unleashed. I have a degree in Economics but we all know experts are not to be trusted, so I understand that you want to wait and see if my fears about unemployment come true.

But my fears about hatred seem to be coming true, only two days after the result and before anyone has even started to think about what happens to foreign people who live here.

This is why we need answers and cannot afford to sit around waiting. There are many people who, for whatever reason have made Britain their home and are now scared.

Not always a fan of Gordon Brown but I do agree with his statement "This is not the Britain I know. This is not the Britain I love. The Britain I know is better than the Britain of these debates, of insults, of posters."

Well just maybe the comment about the suitcases was meant as a joke?

Still if you want to carry on with 'project fear'....................:roll:
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If I witness anybody engaging in such despicable activity, I think the only moral choice is to try to ensure as many witnesses as possible see what is happening, call the Police, and go out of my way to reassure the victims that they are supported and valued as human beings. The Courts need to get a swift message out - before our own Kristallnacht ensues.

It's probably no more than a few isolated incidents before anybody gets too excited about it!

 

[DelayRepay]

Well just maybe the comment about the suitcases was meant as a joke?

Still if you want to carry on with 'project fear'....................:roll:
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I expect it was a joke. Just like another comment I have just read from a British Asian who works in a shop and was told by a customer: "You'll be off home soon." Problem is she was born in Britain and this is home for her.

This is not project fear this is project reality. Yes it's a minority and it's only a small number of cases but the referendum result is legitimising this kind of behaviour.

 

[anme]

By voting Brexit, the country has decided that our decisions will be made by HM Gummint, not by the EU.

That's not consistent with your position below.

There's no point asking Brexit voters "What happens next?" The only answer we can give is "That's for the Gummint to decide". It's not very reassuring, I'll grant you that, but all we can do is wait and see.

Nonsense. If leave voters didn't think about what happens next before voting, they are morons. How did they know that leaving was better than staying if they hadn't thought what it would look like?

What I will say is that signing up to the EEA, and free movement would be seen as a betrayal of the people. That's not to say it won't happen. The government has betrayed it's people before, and I dare say it will happen again.

Nonsense. The vote was the leave the EU. The question was not "do you hate and fear foreigners". The leave campaign actually mentioned the Norwegian model (i.e. EEA membership) quite a lot.
I agree that there should be some democratic element in the choice of what comes next.

Personally, I would like to see us get access to the single market while retaining control over our borders. You don't think that can happen? Fine, we'll have to agree to the disagree. We can debate about it until the cows come home, it won't change a gosh darn thing. What will happen will happen.

Let's ignore that point about free movement of people - you are wrong, but only time will prove that.

You want us to retain access to the single market (i.e. remain part of the single market), and you want all decisions to be made by "HM Government". Those are not compatible things. Please understand this.
Almost of the regulations that come out of Brussels relate to the operation of the single market. They are very boring documents that provide, as far as possible, common regulations for businesses across the single market, with the aim of minimising unnecessary differences between member states. This makes it easier for businesses to operate and trade across the EU.
If the UK wants to remain part of the single market, it will have to follow these rules, just as now. Otherwise, even ignoring tariffs or whatever, it literally won't be part of the single market because the rules governing the market in the UK will be different. This in itself creates trade barriers or means that businesses in the UK can't trade elsewhere in the EU because the regulations are not compatible, and vv.
Do you understand this point? It's very important.

These rules are decided in a democratic way by the European Commission, the Parliament and Council of Ministers (i.e. the leaders of member states).
They are also influenced through long rounds of consultation. You can see some of the current consultations here: http://ec.europa.eu/yourvoice/consultations/index_en.htm
Maybe you would like to respond to some of them. As an EU citizen, that is your right. But be quick! You just voted to exclude yourself from the process.

To state again, if the UK wants to remain part of the single market, it will have to follow these rules. However, the UK has voted to leave all the decision making bodies for these rules. Hence, if we remain part of the single market, we will have to implement the rules while having little or no say in their creation.

Do you think that's a good arrangement?

Do you still want to remain part of the single market?

Do you still think all decisions should be made by "HM Gummint"?

 

[Senex]

I can't find it now, but I think it was higher up in this thread that someone mentioned the 11th report of the House of Lords European Union Committee for the Session 2015-6, which came out quite recently and which included an interesting comment on the possible legal position with Scotland. I was tempted to look at the actual evidence, which I quote without comment:

"Q17 Baroness Suttie: I turn to the devolved Administrations. What legislative measures would be necessary to extinguish the application of EU law in the devolved nations? I have a specific question to Sir David, if I may. Do you think that the Scottish Parliament would be likely to grant legislative consent? If they did not, what would be the consequences?
Sir David Edward: The formal consequence is this. Under Section 29 of the Scotland Act 1998 the Scottish Parliament is bound by EU law, and, ditto, under Section 57(2) the Scottish Government are bound by EU law. Under the Scotland Bill that is going through Parliament at the moment, the Sewel convention will be recognised in Section 2 if it becomes an Act. Therefore, as I see it, you would have to amend the Scotland Act and, therefore, you would have to have legislative consent from the Scottish Parliament. I can envisage certain political advantages being drawn from not acceding to the legislative consent—creating difficulties about it. The basis of Clauses 1 and 2 of the new Scotland Bill is to embed power for the Scottish Parliament and the Sewel convention as part of the British constitution. You can say, “All right, maybe so, but we are going ahead anyway”.
The Chairman: Professor Wyatt, do you want to comment at all with an English voice or would you rather not?
Professor Derrick Wyatt: I would rather not.
The Chairman: Colleagues, we have come to the end of our question session. It would be remiss and entirely outwith my own personal feelings if I did not express, on behalf of all the Committee, our intense thanks to you. I see Sir David signalling that there is an afterthought which may be of value.
Sir David Edward: Chairman, very briefly. At an early stage I mentioned the idea of no more opt-outs. I meant no new opt-outs.
The Chairman: I understand that; it is useful clarification. I started my valedictory, but I will restart it because I feel it very strongly."

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Erm dude, do you expect the EU to launch a trade embargo against us? Of course we're going to trade they can't afford not to.

Remember the Italian banking crisis is a thing. They need all the money they can get their hands on. They simply can't afford to play silly beggars.

They probably can actually if they choose to (although I don't think they would). Refuse to give us a trade deal that puts us inside the common market and lots of companies will move staff and business from the UK to inside the EU - there have already been examples quoted of companies preparing to do that. That increases the tax revenues the EU gets and reduces the tax revenues the UK gets. The EU negotiators are going to be fully aware of that.

 

[cjmillsnun]

It's probably no more than a few isolated incidents before anybody gets too excited about it!

It really isn't.

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3&pnref=story

For those on mobiles, this is a link to a large photoset of racist incidents from immediately before and after the referendum result.

 

[DynamicSpirit]

I can't find it now, but I think it was higher up in this thread that someone mentioned the 11th report of the House of Lords European Union Committee for the Session 2015-6, which came out quite recently and which included an interesting comment on the possible legal position with Scotland. I was tempted to look at the actual evidence, which I quote without comment:

FWIW I showed this to a friend who's training as a lawyer. His reaction was to point out that the Westminster Parliament is supreme and can pass whatever laws it pleases. If it wants to override previously passed legislation about the powers it gave to the Scottish Parliament, then it can.

Having said that, I suspect that in practice if Westminster did so, the political consequences would be unpleasant, and would make it much more likely that Scotland ends up going independent.

 

[Senex]

They probably can actually if they choose to (although I don't think they would). Refuse to give us a trade deal that puts us inside the common market and lots of companies will move staff and business from the UK to inside the EU - there have already been examples quoted of companies preparing to do that. That increases the tax revenues the EU gets and reduces the tax revenues the UK gets. The EU negotiators are going to be fully aware of that.

See this morning's news of the likelihood of HSBC moving up to 1000 jobs to Paris. Not a huge number, but perhaps only a start, as the reason is the loss of the EU "passport" for the money industry. However much some of us may dislike the City of London (and I'm one who does), we can't manage without the huge earnings the City brings in.

 

[jon0844]

I've woken up to see people laughing about how stupid the remainers are for talking doom and gloom about the economy because today a pound still releases a trolley at Tesco.

I get the joke - that a pound is still a pound, but feel so down that so many other leave voters clearly don't understand the bigger picture.

And I can't even understand how someone can think we'll be able to close our borders and still have free trade and that the EU would go for that.

They will want to negotiate and will want a deal but they're not that desperate - they have the fear of encouraging everyone else to want a deal otherwise.

And given the politicians, bar Nigel, don't want out entirely the EEA option seems like what we'll get. Then we can claim a victory by not being ruled by the EU (even though we'll accept most of the laws) and carry on as before.

 

[Antman]

It really isn't.

https://www.facebook.com/sarah.leblanc.718/media_set?set=a.10101369198638985&type=3&pnref=story

For those on mobiles, this is a link to a large photoset of racist incidents from immediately before and after the referendum result.

Well that what comes with social media, anybody can say pretty much anything without any repercussions.

 

[yorksrob]

I've come to think that this decision was just too big to digest in one vote.

If only we'd had the Irish system of voting on each treaty change incrementally, we could have saved ourselves a lot of trouble.

Still, should'a, would'a, could'a....

 

[Senex]

FWIW I showed this to a friend who's training as a lawyer. His reaction was to point out that the Westminster Parliament is supreme and can pass whatever laws it pleases. If it wants to override previously passed legislation about the powers it gave to the Scottish Parliament, then it can.

Having said that, I suspect that in practice if Westminster did so, the political consequences would be unpleasant, and would make it much more likely that Scotland ends up going independent.

That's rather what I thought. Here's something that could bring real poison to the Scotland/Westminster relationship.

 

[anme]

See this morning's news of the likelihood of HSBC moving up to 1000 jobs to Paris. Not a huge number, but perhaps only a start, as the reason is the loss of the EU "passport" for the money industry. However much some of us may dislike the City of London (and I'm one who does), we can't manage without the huge earnings the City brings in.

The loss of jobs will happen slowly. A few companies will move immediately, but most will be lost over time as new investments are made overseas rather than in the UK. The UK has been very successful at attracting inward investment into the EU, but that will change outside the single market.

Now, if the UK remained in the single market, things might not be so bad. But then we will have to accept freedom of movement. Actually, I think we might decide we want that anyway - it's an amazing right and privilege for us as individuals that we would more idiotic to give up.

 

[cjmillsnun]

As a remain supporter I want the least worst option. The UK to remain in the EEA with the conditions that apply. That will bring about quick stability. To go it alone and try and negotiate individual trade deals will not happen quickly. We can't afford that as a nation.

 

[jon0844]

It's amazing how so many people are now putting such faith in a UK Government to do all these things (like impose restrictions on immigration and do trade deals with individual nations) when for as long as I can remember, we are told our inept and corrupt our politicians are.

The same that are being interviewed now and saying 'we didn't promise to do that' when asked about all the things that formed the leave arguments.

We seem to have more or less overnight decided that all our problems are down to:

a) Foreigners
b) The EU (which is pretty much the same as a).

 

[anme]

As a remain supporter I want the least worst option. The UK to remain in the EEA with the conditions that apply. That will bring about quick stability. To go it alone and try and negotiate individual trade deals will not happen quickly. We can't afford that as a nation.

Absolutely agree.

And leave supporters haven't come up with an alternative.

We can now look forward to the mother of all battles in UK politics as Boris (or whoever) has to get this agreed by the Tory party. Anyone who thinks this fight (i.e. our relationship with Europe) is over is wrong. Now the real battle starts. Choose your side. The sad thing is that the best option - EU membership - is one that is no longer on the table.

 

[northwichcat]

Quite a few Leave voters at work seemed pretty disheartened by the £350m a week for the NHS lie; with some even saying they won't bother about voting or paying attention to the next general election.

If they feel cheated by a campaign run mainly by UKIP and the Conservatives, accompanied by some Labour party members then they need to vote for an alternative at the next election - like the Greens or the Lib Dems, not do nothing and let the liars get away with their lies.

 

[Steveman]

I don't live in a bubble, I live in the same country as you. The difference is unlike you I have an understanding of economics and more than a grasp of reality.

You have effectively voted to leave economic stability. You can see that by how the money markets have reacted to a Brexit and yet those of us who thought things through knew this would happen a long time a go. Which precisely why I voted to stay in the EU.

You will now have to watch as investment and ultimately jobs are transferred from the UK to the rest of Europe. And all because you and many others voted for Brexit without considering the implications of your decision.

I'm afraid your posts do show you up as someone who lives in a London bubble, totally divorced from reality and life outside the chattering Metropolitan elite who are all in a sulk to end all sulks.
Yes jobs might be lost and uncertainty is going to be around for some time but this is a very long term process, things will start to pick up once the uncertainty has gone.

Being an insular little inward looking European is ridiculous, why is it so bad to just be like the other 169 countries of the world that don't belong to a block.
This insular attitude amongst Remainers is baffling, there is a whole wide world out there. What have I got in common with a Bulgarian or a Slovak compared to an Australian or American who are like us,talk like us and have a similar culture.
Being close doesn't mean anything, it's culture and attitudes and an affinity what matters and my affinity is to people who are our trusted old allies unlike France and Germany who are anything but.

 

[Harbornite]

It's eye opening to see just how uninformed many Brexit voters are. A number of them regret voting out, but were they physically incapable of doing their own research as opposed to relying on rehearsed sound bites and lies from politicians? It's OK though, we have a bit more sovereignty and who cares about boring things like the economy?

 

[Steveman]

It's eye opening to see just how uninformed many Brexit voters are. A number of them regret voting out, but were they physically incapable of doing their own research as opposed to relying on rehearsed sound bites and lies from politicians? It's OK though, we have a bit more sovereignty and who cares about boring things like the economy?

How many of the 17,410,742 have you spoken to ?