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EU Referendum: The result and aftermath...

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Senex

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Which they may win, probably by a very small margin - and probably without every area of Scotland voting for independence - the areas that do not vote for independence will "then be dragged out of the union against their will".

Which is exactly what has just happened within the UK in the EU referendum.

Because for some reason Scotland is indivisible even though the United Kingdom is not.

If it's a (so-called) United Kingdom, then by definition it's made up of separate bits which can be split apart again if that's what's wanted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In a few years we can vote out May or Leadsom and replace them with a Labour PM.

That way, we'll have a Corbyn-led government (with all the Blairites purged from the party for good measure) and we won't be in the EU. It'll be a win-win situation!
And then just wait for the Stalin-style purges to begin.
 
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dgl

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Haven't read through all todays posts but Ian hislop was on question time and pointed out that everyone that is to blame/responsible for this decision has all left.

Cameron who gave us the vote is gone, Gove, Farage, IDS and Boris have gone.

The leavers have left!



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36742691



Sent from my Lumia 625 using Tapatalk
 
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HSTEd

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Which is exactly what has just happened within the UK in the EU referendum.
But when the SNP don't like it its an outrage.
But when the SNP propose it it is the glory of democracy.
 

Gutfright

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For anyone thinking of writing a letter to their MP to ask that the UK remains in the EU, I took the liberty of drafting a letter template for you to use...

Dear [Name of MP]

Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste. I've been around for a long, long year. Stole many a man's soul to waste.

Wait let me start again.

I am an intelligent, rational human being. I am capable of evaluating the evidence and deciding for myself which sources are trustworthy and which are not, which claims are plausible and which are not.

Unfortunately, the people of Britain lack my superior cognitive abilities. I'm not saying that they are mindless sheep but they certainly behave like it. Their simple, childlike minds automatically and unquestioningly believe anything they're told. Mine doesn't. They cannot possibly distinguish the truth from lies. I can. I know the truth. I am clever.

I mean some of the people who voted in the EU referendum live in grotty little flats and maisonettes in council estates. If they were clever like me why don't they live in a nice middle-class area like I do? These people obviously lack my intellect, and yet were allowed to vote. That is anti-democratic because...Well because...Er...LOOK OVER THERE!!!

In conclusion, ignore the people of Britain. They are easily fooled. I am not. They lack the brainpower to know what's best for them. But I know what's best for them. I know what's best for everybody. I am clever. Don't listen to the people of Britain. Listen to me. I am right. I am clever.

Yours sincerely,

[Your Name]
 

Gutfright

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You are a Masterful troll sir, I congratulate you, we all fell for your apparent seriousness, but at last you've slipped up, as nobody could believe that would ever happen.

You'd be surprised. Nobody could believe that Corbyn would become leader of the Labour Party at one point not so long ago.
 

Railops

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This thread needs killing now as all that is keeping it going is members of the Metropolitan Snowflake generation constantly regurgitating the same despair and woe.
Out in the normal world though the 48% are rejoicing, because they are finally a minority and everyone knows how the left absolutely love a minority.
 
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VauxhallandI

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This thread needs killing now as all that is keeping it going is members of the Metropolitan snowflake generation constantly regurgitating the same despair and woe.
Out in the normal world though the 48% are rejoicing, because they are finally a minority and everyone knows how the left absolutely love a minority.

Do let me know what the qualifications are to be a "Metropolitan snowflake".
 

miami

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Unfortunately, the people of Britain lack my superior cognitive abilities. I'm not saying that they are mindless sheep but they certainly behave like it. Their simple, childlike minds automatically and unquestioningly believe anything they're told. Mine doesn't. They cannot possibly distinguish the truth from lies. I can. I know the truth. I am clever.

You bring up a very good point. Half the people who voted in the referendum are below average intelligence. A good 10% of them are classed as being as idiots (remember the 3 thick people in your class at school?).
 

HSTEd

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Myself I don't particularly care for the EU either way. Its benefits are a few fringe percent and can be approached with appropriate policies on a national level.

What concerns me is the dismemberment of a 300-year Union - which has become effectively inevitable because of our obsession with referenda-on-demand.
 

Railops

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Do let me know what the qualifications are to be a "Metropolitan snowflake".

To be fair there are quite a lot around the home counties as well but London is the Snowflake capital of England.
They held a picnic today in Green park London to “comfort and heal each other" but it was infiltrated by the Counter-Picnic for Democracy who sat amongst them much to their annoyance.
 
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me123

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Correction - the Scottish Government may call another referendum if the opinion polling continues to suggest a plurality for independence. That is the only concern of the SNP - whether they can win.

These 'negotiations' with Europe are just a cover to buy them time whilst they work out if this surge is a temporary thing caused by despair and shock over the referendum or not. If it is they will actually try negotiating and hope they can get some kind of deal.

However if this surge continues they will then declare that there is no hope of any deal being made - because they will never have actually tried very hard to get one - and demand a second vote on independence.

People still seem to assume that the SNP is obsessed with independence and nothing else. They have since proven themselves to be a very capable political party, with a coherent stand on the whole range of political issues. In fact, at present they seem to be the only major political party that is in any way united. Of course, they are unapologetic in their belief that independence is the best for Scotland, but they do act in a broader sense as well.

I think it is highly likely that independence will be on the table, in no small part due to the political leanings of the SNP. It is also the simplest option for Scotland's continued membership of the EU. I have no doubt that the Scottish Government will in fact explore all options on the table, however. If for no other reason than the need to fully understand the situation.

Which they may win, probably by a very small margin - and probably without every area of Scotland voting for independence - the areas that do not vote for independence will "then be dragged out of the union against their will".

Because for some reason Scotland is indivisible even though the United Kingdom is not.

Current opinion polling suggests that the margin for Scottish Independence would be much more comfortable than it was for the UK leaving the EU.

The thing you seem to fail to grasp is that Scotland is a country. There's a well established border between Scotland and England. We could go down the absurd route of making enclaves and exclaves, having a ridiculously complex border, but I don't think anyone would like that solution. But no-one is suggesting that the parts of England and Wales that voted to remain join Scotland or form their own country (The People's Republic of Warwick, perhaps?), the movement for London Independence aside.

Scotland is a country, with its own parliament and own legislature. People identify as Scottish. There is no precedent to divide Scotland, no interest in dividing Scotland and no suggestion of dividing Scotland.

Scotland has chosen a different route. Scotland as a whole strongly supports continued EU membership, as demonstrated in the referendum. The EU membership that was, apparently, conditional on our continued membership of the UK. The UK that Scotland voted to remain a part of is no more. As such, it is entirely reasonable that Scotland has a referendum on where we go from here - continued membership of the UK or continued membership of the EU (which appear to be mutually exclusive).

A supermajority should be placed on independence and every other referendum because whilst the nationalists can keep demanding votes until they get the result they want there will be no possibility of reversing independence once it occurs - so the nationalists will always win in the end. You will vote until you let them win.

This is a load of nonsense. A supermajority is a profoundly undemocratic. In a binary decision, 50%+1 constitutes a majority. That is the fairest way of doing things. It is ridiculous to suggest that one side needs more support than the other would in order to win. It must be remembered that in a referendum even the status quo are obliged to make their case, and should be afforded the same opportunity to do so. Mandating a supermajority gives them an unfair advantage.

The big thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is that whilst with Scotland in the UK it is likely that the UK will remain in the EEA - with all the trappings associated with that, if Scotland leaves it is almost certain that the rUK will take a harder line position and end up outside the single market - at which point Scotland is screwed because there will have to be a hard border with England.

rUK wanted nothing to do with Europe. What England and Wales want is up to England and Wales. I'd like an open border with rUK, but I'd much rather maintain our relationship with Europe. You have made another ridiculous assumption that Scotland would somehow be harmed by a hard border with England, but England would not. You forget, of course, that England also trades with Scotland. And with Ireland. And with the rest of the EU. If rUK's response to globalisation is crippling isolationism, then that's their decision. But don't pretend for a moment that England and Wales would not be harmed by a hard border with Scotland and the rest of the EU.
 

Senex

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What concerns me is the dismemberment of a 300-year Union - which has become effectively inevitable because of our obsession with referenda-on-demand.

Which is exactly what I want to see as the only way of dealing with the blatantly anti-England bias of the Blair/Brown devolution arrangements.
 

HSTEd

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rUK wanted nothing to do with Europe. What England and Wales want is up to England and Wales. I'd like an open border with rUK, but I'd much rather maintain our relationship with Europe. You have made another ridiculous assumption that Scotland would somehow be harmed by a hard border with England, but England would not. You forget, of course, that England also trades with Scotland. And with Ireland. And with the rest of the EU. If rUK's response to globalisation is crippling isolationism, then that's their decision. But don't pretend for a moment that England and Wales would not be harmed by a hard border with Scotland and the rest of the EU.

Of course it would be harmed - in no way did I suggest it would not be. However the caliber of the harm would be different by orders of magnitude.
Rather a larger fraction of Scotlands trade is with the rUK than the rUK's is with Scotland.
England and Wales would be hurt, yes - but Scotland would be devastated. And England and Wales might chose to endure that pain because of the inevitable backlash amongst English and Welsh public opinion over Scottish independence - there will inevitably be enormous amounts of ill feeling.
Scotland will have chosen to abandon the rest of Britain to run away to the EU - it will have become that thing "that England and Wales wants nothing to do with".

And England and Wales might have no problem with an open border, but I can guarantee that Scotland would be required to join Schengen and give up all the other opt outs, at which point the EU would command the hard border. The EU knows that Scotland wants in and has no reason to go easy on it to ensure it does - and many reasons to insist that Scotland sign up to the full package, not least to demonstrate that EU integration is alive and well.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think it is highly likely that independence will be on the table, in no small part due to the political leanings of the SNP. It is also the simplest option for Scotland's continued membership of the EU. I have no doubt that the Scottish Government will in fact explore all options on the table, however. If for no other reason than the need to fully understand the situation.
But this is the best chance the SNP has to get independence in the near future - to do anything that undermines that chance would be to act against the parties primary stated intention - this seems unlikely.
Current opinion polling suggests that the margin for Scottish Independence would be much more comfortable than it was for the UK leaving the EU.
Which is hardly saying much as the EU result is hardly an enormous majority is it. 33 million votes and a margin of 1.3?
The thing you seem to fail to grasp is that Scotland is a country. There's a well established border between Scotland and England. We could go down the absurd route of making enclaves and exclaves, having a ridiculously complex border, but I don't think anyone would like that solution. But no-one is suggesting that the parts of England and Wales that voted to remain join Scotland or form their own country (The People's Republic of Warwick, perhaps?), the movement for London Independence aside.
So there is no cases where people are calling fr that.... apart from the places where people are calling for it?

This is a load of nonsense. A supermajority is a profoundly undemocratic. In a binary decision, 50%+1 constitutes a majority. That is the fairest way of doing things. It is ridiculous to suggest that one side needs more support than the other would in order to win. It must be remembered that in a referendum even the status quo are obliged to make their case, and should be afforded the same opportunity to do so. Mandating a supermajority gives them an unfair advantage.
.

Because if the status quo wins the change party always has an opportunity to make its case again. If the change party wins there is almost always no going back. You have to make sure there is a consensus in favour of the change or you end up with an electorate split almost down the middle and enormous amounts of ill feeling that will persist for decades.
 
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EM2

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http://www.theguardian.com/politics...t-brexit-twice-as-high?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

EU referendum: youth turnout almost twice as high as first thought
About 64% of registered voters aged 18-24 went to polls, study reveals, but 90% of over-65s voted

The turnout among young people aged 18 to 24 in the EU referendum was almost double the level that has been widely reported since polling day, according to evidence compiled at the London School of Economics.

The new findings – based on detailed polling conducted since the referendum by Opinium, and analysed by Michael Bruter, professor of political science and European politics at the LSE, and his colleague, Dr Sarah Harrison – suggests the turnout was 64% among this age group.

It has been widely assumed since the referendum that the turnout among young people was around 36% – a figure that has allowed Brexit campaigners to say young people cannot claim that they were betrayed by older pro-Brexit voters, as almost two-thirds did not bother to vote.

Bruter and Harrison say the lower and wrong estimate was based on information released by Sky Data which relied on data compiled after last year’s general election, which looked at the proportion within each generation who said they always vote.

The new, far higher, figures emerged after Opinium conducted post-referendum polling among 2,002 people that asked four questions about how and whether they voted. They asked whether people voted at polling stations or by post, whether they were registered but did not vote, and whether they were not registered at all.

The results found that 64% of those young people who were registered did vote, rising to 65% among 25-to-39-year-olds and 66% among those aged between 40 and 54. It increased to 74% among the 55-to-64 age group and 90% for those aged 65 and over. It is thought that more than 70% of young voters chose to remain in the EU.

In a report, Bruter and Harrison say: “The question of whether young people voted or not is politically important for two critical reasons. First, because there continues to be a significant proportion of younger voters who say that they are unhappy with the result of the referendum and want to be heard, and one of the key arguments that has been made in answer to them is that they should have bothered to vote if they cared that much. And, second, because the government chose not to give the right to vote to 16- and 17-year-olds in the referendum. It is fair to ask whether allowing them to vote could have changed the result of the referendum or not.”

They say the assumption that a majority of young people who were registered did not bother to vote can be laid to rest. “While young people voted a little bit less than average, they were probably quite close to the national average (only 8% below according to our survey).”

Bruter added that if 16- and 17-year-olds had been allowed to vote, the result would almost certainly have been closer, reducing the ability of the Leave camp to claim a clear victory.

“Allowing 16-to-17-year-olds a vote would have added nearly 1.6 million potential citizens to the electorate, but it is of course extraordinarily difficult to know if it might have affected the outcome of the referendum. On balance, the results of our surveys on the turnout of 18-to-24-year-olds would suggest that it would not have been enough to overturn the result of the referendum … but it would have almost certainly reduced the advantage of Leave to such a point (likely less than 500,000 votes) that the very concept of a majority would have been highly controversial.”
 

me123

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Of course it would be harmed - in no way did I suggest it would not be. However the caliber of the harm would be different by orders of magnitude.
Rather a larger fraction of Scotlands trade is with the rUK than the rUK's is with Scotland.
England and Wales would be hurt, yes - but Scotland would be devastated. And England and Wales might chose to endure that pain because of the inevitable backlash amongst English and Welsh public opinion over Scottish independence - there will inevitably be enormous amounts of ill feeling.
Scotland will have chosen to abandon the rest of Britain to run away to the EU - it will have become that thing "that England and Wales wants nothing to do with".

But an independent Scotland would be a part of the EU. So, if rUK wants to put up the barriers to trade with Scotland, it would have to do so with the rest of the EU as well. rUK's trade with the EU is not that dissimilar to Scotland's trade with rUK.

Public opinion (generally) in Scotland differs markedly than that in England and Wales, and I believe that our countries would get along much better as equal independent nations than in the current unfair scenario.

And England and Wales might have no problem with an open border, but I can guarantee that Scotland would be required to join Schengen and give up all the other opt outs, at which point the EU would command the hard border. The EU knows that Scotland wants in and has no reason to go easy on it to ensure it does - and many reasons to insist that Scotland sign up to the full package, not least to demonstrate that EU integration is alive and well.

So England and Wales would want to harm Scotland as much as possible, but would have no problem with an open border?

Ireland currently has an open border with Northern Ireland, and there's been no suggestion that that will change. That is a precedent for Scotland to retain open borders with rUK.

But this is the best chance the SNP has to get independence in the near future - to do anything that undermines that chance would be to act against the parties primary stated intention - this seems unlikely.

Agreed.

Which is hardly saying much as the EU result is hardly an enormous majority is it. 33 million votes and a margin of 1.3?

Yet, it was a majority. And, as much as I disagree with it, it is right that the Leave campaign won.

So there is no cases where people are calling fr that.... apart from the places where people are calling for it?

London Independence is hardly an established movement. Scottish Independence has been discussed for many decades. London's movement has only gathered a bit of steam recently, and I doubt it will come to anything. There's no real precedent for London as an independent country. I doubt there's any real impetus. There's not really anyone calling for it in a serious way, like there is with Scottish independence. Surely you can understand the difference?

Because if the status quo wins the change party always has an opportunity to make its case again. If the change party wins there is almost always no going back. You have to make sure there is a consensus in favour of the change or you end up with an electorate split almost down the middle and enormous amounts of ill feeling that will persist for decades.

What is your problem with democracy?

If 59% of people vote for change at it is denied, that is an absolute affront to democracy. 50% + 1 vote winning may split the country down the middle, but 59% of the vote being counted as a loss will inspire much worse ill feeling. In fact, you'd risk starting a civil war in some cases. 50% + 1 vote constitutes a majority. That is a mathematical fact. 60%+1 vote only applies if we moved to mathematics in base 12.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
EU referendum: youth turnout almost twice as high as first thought
About 64% of registered voters aged 18-24 went to polls, study reveals, but 90% of over-65s voted

Can all the people who've been moaning that us young people have ruined things by not voting please now apologise?
 

Gutfright

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60%+1 vote only applies if we moved to mathematics in base 12.

Just nitpicking for no reason, but 60 in base 12 = 72 in decimal.

You need to move to a base lower than base 10, eg 60 in base 8 = 48 in decimal
 
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me123

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D'Oh :oops:

60 per 120 +1 vote... We would also use /120 instead of percent... oh forget it I messed up :lol:
 

northwichcat

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Myself................born in Manchester on 6th April 1945 of a Polish father (serving in the Royal Air Force) and a mother from Eire.

Everyone in the UK has historical links to an overseas heritage if you go back far enough...

In the case of Ireland, the republic hasn't been independent from the UK for that long so in my case I had an Irish grandmother who moved to Lancashire before the republic of Ireland became independent, so her living in England then wouldn't be any different to a Welsh or Scottish person living in England now.

As I mentioned in the thread a couple of weeks ago a journalist living in London wrote about be subjecting to racial abuse following the Brexit vote. She pointed out she was born in Hong Kong when it was under British rule and moved to Canada before it became fully independent from Britain before recently moved to London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I mean some of the people who voted in the EU referendum live in grotty little flats and maisonettes in council estates. If they were clever like me why don't they live in a nice middle-class area like I do? These people obviously lack my intellect, and yet were allowed to vote. That is anti-democratic because...Well because...Er...LOOK OVER THERE!!!

In conclusion, ignore the people of Britain. They are easily fooled. I am not. They lack the brainpower to know what's best for them. But I know what's best for them. I know what's best for everybody. I am clever. Don't listen to the people of Britain. Listen to me. I am right. I am clever.

Has it escaped your mind that millionaires like Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, John Whittingdale, Theresa Villiers, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Iain Duncan Smith, Priti Patel were running the Leave campaign backed by people including Rupert Murdoch and John Hutson? Anyone who thought Leave represented the ordinary working person was either brainwashed or just not that intelligent.
 

Antman

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In the case of Ireland, the republic hasn't been independent from the UK for that long so in my case I had an Irish grandmother who moved to Lancashire before the republic of Ireland became independent, so her living in England then wouldn't be any different to a Welsh or Scottish person living in England now.

As I mentioned in the thread a couple of weeks ago a journalist living in London wrote about be subjecting to racial abuse following the Brexit vote. She pointed out she was born in Hong Kong when it was under British rule and moved to Canada before it became fully independent from Britain before recently moved to London.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Has it escaped your mind that millionaires like Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, John Whittingdale, Theresa Villiers, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Iain Duncan Smith, Priti Patel were running the Leave campaign backed by people including Rupert Murdoch and John Hutson? Anyone who thought Leave represented the ordinary working person was either brainwashed or just not that intelligent.

Or maybe it's you that's either brainwashed or not that intelligent?

Who did you expect to run the leave campaign, a butcher, a baker and a candle stick maker?
 

miami

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a journalist living in London wrote about be subjecting to racial abuse following the Brexit vote. She pointed out

Anyone thick enough to use racial abuse is not going to listen to things being "pointed out".

However post-brexit it's just a normal thing.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-36683083
A BBC presenter is moved to tears as she describes the racist tirade she faced in Coventry city centre.
Trish Adudu first witnessed a man - "full of hate" - abuse a student, before he turned his attention to her.
She said she was left "shocked and shaken" by the language, which included a word she had not heard directed at her before.

Has it escaped your mind that millionaires like Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, John Whittingdale, Theresa Villiers, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Iain Duncan Smith, Priti Patel were running the Leave campaign backed by people including Rupert Murdoch and John Hutson? Anyone who thought Leave represented the ordinary working person was either brainwashed or just not that intelligent.

The problem was we pointed all this out during the campaign. Yet common-as-much commodities traders like Farage, or Salt-Of-The-Earth Eton schoolboys like Johnson resonate in a way that your typical state school bus drivers don't.
 

northwichcat

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Or maybe it's you that's either brainwashed or not that intelligent?

I don't think so as I realised the £350m to the NHS a week claim was a lie before the referendum result as £350m is around triple what actually goes to the EU and ignores the fact many UK projects get funding back from the EU. However, it seems a number of Leave voters were outraged the day after the referendum when prominent Leave campaigners finally admitted the £350m figure was misleading.

Also it's ironic Leave were saying about more jobs for British people. Yet leaving the EU is going to result in a few hundred legal experts from abroad being employed using money from British tax payers, due to there not being suitably qualified British legal experts available to do the work.
 

Harbornite

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Or maybe it's you that's either brainwashed or not that intelligent?

Who did you expect to run the leave campaign, a butcher, a baker and a candle stick maker?

No, but certain users on here always bang on about how the leave campaign stood up for salt of the earth, thick working class British people of Britain. Also, you should do some research because it was proven that on average, remain voters were more intelligent.
 

Johnuk123

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No, but certain users on here always bang on about how the leave campaign stood up for salt of the earth, thick working class British people of Britain. Also, you should do some research because it was proven that on average, remain voters were more intelligent.

Is it compulsory every Leave voter has to be described as "thick" by Remainers ?
 

Gutfright

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Has it escaped your mind that millionaires like Nigel Farage, Boris Johnson, John Whittingdale, Theresa Villiers, Michael Gove, Chris Grayling, Iain Duncan Smith, Priti Patel were running the Leave campaign backed by people including Rupert Murdoch and John Hutson? Anyone who thought Leave represented the ordinary working person was either brainwashed or just not that intelligent.

You're kind of making my point for me. The ordinary person is easily brainwashed, but you're not. The ordinary person is not that intelligent. But you are.
 

northwichcat

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Is it compulsory every Leave voter has to be described as "thick" by Remainers ?

Harbonite said 'on average, remain voters were more intelligent' Saying on average girls do better than boys in GCSE exams is a fact but saying girls always do better than boys in GCSE exams would be incorrect as would saying girls are clever and boys aren't.
 
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Johnuk123

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Harbonite said 'on average, remain voters were more intelligent' It seems you don't understand what 'on average' means. Saying on average girls do better than boys in GCSE exams is a fact but saying girls always do better than boys in GCSE exams would be incorrect.

Harbonite:
thick working class British people of Britain
Sounds like he did call them "thick" to me.
 
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