East Anglia fleet future cascade options

[swt_passenger]

...rather surprised about 379s being replaced

Me too, but it might make some sense for the purpose of consolidation of similar fleets if they are more similar to someone else's older Electrostar based fleet, even though they are supposedly some sort of technical advance on normal Electrostars. Surely they aren't that different to the latest 387s?

But size wise, either the 360s or the 379s would possibly make a rreasobale Northern 319 fleet replacement.

 

[class387]

The FLIRTS for the UK probably wouldn't be the same as their Continental cousins so they abide by the loading gauge.

I'm pretty sure that Swiss narrow gauge body would fit (yes, I know this technically isn't a Flirt):

Not my picture.

 

[northwichcat]

Or maybe up North? I'm sure nobody will miss the 319s too much if they were to go. The third rail 465's are looking at an ever shrinking market, though...

Well if Arriva can't improve the reliability of the 319s maybe they'll talk to DfT and ROSCOs about other options. While Arriva are getting 12 x 319s in addition to the 20 they have, 5 of those are only on short term leases so while there are less than 32 x 379s, securing all 30 x 379s would be a gain in capacity.

Do you mean the 465s or the 365s? The Great Northern 365s are just as (or more suitable) for Northern as the 319s but the Southeastern 465s would be useless for Northern.

 

[J-2739]

I'm pretty sure that Swiss narrow gauge body would fit (yes, I know this technically isn't a Flirt):

[Not my picture.

I was thinking about platform heights also.

 

[BuryBlue]

Well if Arriva can't improve the reliability of the 319s maybe they'll talk to DfT and ROSCOs about other options. While Arriva are getting 12 x 319s in addition to the 20 they have, 5 of those are only on short term leases so while there are less than 32 x 379s, securing all 30 x 379s would be a gain in capacity.

Do you mean the 465s or the 365s? The Great Northern 365s are just as (or more suitable) for Northern as the 319s but the Southeastern 465s would be useless for Northern.

I do mean the 365's, yes. It'd be shame to see them scrapped. They're comfortable trains.

The 465's will probably scrapped soon unless Northern were to want a homologous fleet and are say 2-3 units down and so a couple might be saved to be converted to OHL. Unlikely, though.

From memory, there's 21 GN 365's to be transferred (and a couple more which I think GN are keeping; but they could probably be persuaded to increase their Electrostar fleet. The numbers might just work. And even if they couldn't, a couple of the SE Networkers could have the necessary rectifiers installed to work up North.

 

[adrock1976]

On a sideways point mentioned in a couple of posts above regarding the 465s, are they too big for the Merseyrail Electrics services?

It would be a handy stop gap if the 465s can fit the tunnels.

 

[Haydn1971]

Or maybe up North? I'm sure nobody will miss the 319s too much if they were to go.

That's it, shove the old stuff up north

Seriously though, 21+5 360s should easily find a home,

 

[BuryBlue]

On a sideways point mentioned in a couple of posts above regarding the 465s, are they too big for the Merseyrail Electrics services?

It would be a handy stop gap if the 465s can fit the tunnels.

I hear the 465's reliability is beginning to decline now, so I doubt Merseyrail (or rather, the press) would be particularly happy about getting them. The 365's however are mid life so an add on of a couple of 465s to make up numbers would be a less bitter pill to swallow.

 

[ainsworth74]

Seriously though, 21+5 360s should easily find a home,

Where would that be then?

 

[BuryBlue]

That's it, shove the old stuff up north

Seriously though, 21+5 360s should easily find a home,

Pff

It's a pity they don't do 110mph, they're good trains in nearly every other respect. (the 365s, I've never had the pleasure of using a 360)

If they were to replace the 319s, it'd be a question of simply suitability, as the numbers are the same (or can be made the same at very little cost)

 

[Haydn1971]

Are we heading into a new era of shorter lifespan units ? We've been conditioned for a couple of decades now into mend and make do, but with the huge investment coming along, the really old stock or unsuitable stock is now looking increasing likely to get scrapped. Thoughts ?

 

[northwichcat]

Are we heading into a new era of shorter lifespan units ? We've been conditioned for a couple of decades now into mend and make do, but with the huge investment coming along, the really old stock or unsuitable stock is now looking increasing likely to get scrapped. Thoughts ?

Or is Mr Shooter going to buy them and covert them in to diesel-electric trains?

 

[BuryBlue]

Are we heading into a new era of shorter lifespan units ? We've been conditioned for a couple of decades now into mend and make do, but with the huge investment coming along, the really old stock or unsuitable stock is now looking increasing likely to get scrapped. Thoughts ?

The 365s are barely 20 years old, they're far too early to be scrapped yet. I wonder if they're even in the second half of the bathtub curve yet!

The 360s are 13 years old. They're actually very close in terms of specification to each other.

Both do 100mph. If one was to be sent up North though, the 365's gangways might just be a winner, and will be available more quickly. The 465s will be scrapped save for a couple that might be saved to be converted and/or for spares for other Networkers.

Lots of Mk3s and now by the look of it HST stock will be scrapped.

 

[Haydn1971]

To be fair, I wasn't suggesting that the 365/360s would be scrapped... Just musing at the influx of new trains... It's rather like the early 00s again.

 

[Domh245]

The 365s are barely 20 years old, they're far too early to be scrapped yet. I wonder if they're even in the second half of the bathtub curve yet!

The 360s are 13 years old. They're actually very close in terms of specification to each other.

Both do 100mph. If one was to be sent up North though, the 365's gangways might just be a winner, and will be available more quickly. The 465s will be scrapped save for a couple that might be saved to be converted and/or for spares for other Networkers.

What gangways? If anything, 360s might be a good bet for Manchester area services, what with the depot at Ardwick.

 

[Haydn1971]

What gangways? If anything, 360s might be a good bet for Manchester area services, what with the depot at Ardwick.

Think he means four/five linked units unlike what we have now where northern have plenty of two+two units which can't be walked right through

 

[northwichcat]

What gangways? If anything, 360s might be a good bet for Manchester area services, what with the depot at Ardwick.

Only problem is Arriva decided they could make do with 27 x 319s in the long term alongside the 331s and there's only 26 x 360s. Getting all 26 presumes they can get the Heathrow Connect/Express ones as well as the Anglia ones and there won't be the option of adding more to the fleet as electrification work progresses.

 

[class387]

The 365s are barely 20 years old, they're far too early to be scrapped yet. I wonder if they're even in the second half of the bathtub curve yet!

The 360s are 13 years old. They're actually very close in terms of specification to each other.

Both do 100mph. If one was to be sent up North though, the 365's gangways might just be a winner, and will be available more quickly. The 465s will be scrapped save for a couple that might be saved to be converted and/or for spares for other Networkers.

Lots of Mk3s and now by the look of it HST stock will be scrapped.

365s don't have gangways - no Networker stock do.

 

[BuryBlue]

Only problem is Arriva decided they could make do with 27 x 319s in the long term alongside the 331s and there's only 26 x 360s. Getting all 26 presumes they can get the Heathrow Connect/Express ones as well as the Anglia ones and there won't be the option of adding more to the fleet as electrification work progresses.

Whereas there's a fleet of 41 in total 365's.

Although it is very likely they could obtain all of the units by 2020. Crossrail will have no need for them and nor will Anglia, while the 365s will be available by...soon!

 

[Domh245]

Think he means four/five linked units unlike what we have now where northern have plenty of two+two units which can't be walked right through

I read it as the 365s having an advantage over the 360s because of a gangway. Both are fully gangwayed internally, so each is no better than the other.

Only problem is Arriva decided they could make do with 27 x 319s in the long term alongside the 331s and there's only 26 x 360s. Getting all 26 presumes they can get the Heathrow Connect/Express ones as well as the Anglia ones and there won't be the option of adding more to the fleet as electrification work progresses.

Would the 360s not have a higher fleet availability which would allow them to provide the same level of service as the 319s with one less unit? I do suspect that once Crossrail starts going to Heathrow, the Connect/Express 360s will be sold on to Angel.

 

[BuryBlue]

365s don't have gangways - no Networker stock do.

I was thinking of something else

There you go. Very (very) similar trains indeed.

 

[MK Tom]

Why are we discussing 365s? Aren't they going to GWR? Or did that change again?

 

[northwichcat]

Why are we discussing 365s? Aren't they going to GWR? Or did that change again?

It changed. GWR are getting additional 387s instead of 365s.

 

[158756]

A few years ago when electrification was the future we would have been talking about many possible uses for all of these EMUs.

Now I would assume 317s for scrap, along with the 153s and Mk3s. What on earth are they going to do with 94 321s?(And aren't Northern's being released as well?). They're younger than most of the sprinters, which have some years left yet, but does anywhere other than Rotherham have use for so many?

As other posters have suggested the 156s and 170s won't have any shortage of takers, and the 360s and 379s will send more Mk3 EMUs to the scrap yard.

 

[D365]

Whereas there's a fleet of 40 in total 365's.

Great Northern are keeping 19, which leaves 21 - 365526 was withdrawn some years back.

 

[Wivenswold]

This has probably knocked the D Stock Viva train on the head with so many serviceable AEA DMUs becoming available.

I think the 317s will be scrapped, possibly many of the unrefurbished 321, I can't imagine the full Renatus treatment would be continued unless they have homes to go to.

This award must be like an early Christmas for TOCs around the country. 72 DDA compliant 3rd generation and refurbished 2nd gen EMUs becoming available just like that.

 

[fgwrich]

Could one option, with some modifications, for the 360s to join their 380 classmates in Scotland? Thus eliminating the 318 fleet* and with the addition of their HEX classmates increase capacity in the Glasgow area?

*assuming the 314s are being binned first.

 

[notlob.divad]

Whoever suggested Merseyrail has clearly missed that there is already tenders returned and being decided upon for brand new rolling stock. Merseytravel / Merseyrail / local politicians who oversee these bodies have boxed themselves in with this as any back down at this point to cascaded stock would be political suicide.

I do think it leaves Northern in a bit of a quandary. There are now clearly some options available better than refurbishing the 319s, but with the franchise agreement already being committed to and leasing contracts signed, it would surely be an expensive get out to change their plans now.

When will these units actually become available to the TOCs?

Also which units are already DDA compliant and which need work?

 

[43096]

Can someone please explain the relevance of 465s to the subject of this thread?

 

[Kyle1]

I'm hoping that the availability of the 321's would encourage the Welsh Assembly and/or Westminster to rush through an Electrification plan for the Valleys, 94 4 car units would be enough to cover the whole Network and have spares for lengthening peak services, especially considering that the bulk of the valleys network is currently either 4 car pacers, 15 of which are already heading for the scrap heap in 2019 (total length of roughly 62 metres in comparison to an 80 metre class 321) or a 2 car class 150 (roughly 40 metres).