AlterEgo
Veteran Member
Agreed. This was really naive of Corbyn. He's lost a lot of credibility lately and this isn't going to help.
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Jeremy Corbyn's Traingate
- Thread starter thewiltog
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Agreed. This was really naive of Corbyn. He's lost a lot of credibility lately and this isn't going to help.
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RailUK Forums
Precisely. He lied. He got caught out. Get over it.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
It's certainly not incontovertible fact, unless you think that reserved seats are fair game so long as nobody is sat in them.
image removed, seeing as Virgin aren't capable of redacting properly
Virgin also describe the larger version of that image- which shows a full coach F, and plenty of faces (including children) without any pixellation- as "high resolution"...
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People on Twitter are dismissing the evidence as inadmissible and it won't be long until we go down the route of saying the footage is fake.
Maybe Jeremy will just confess and apologise. After all, there are trains that are crush loaded - but he, or his advisors, shouldn't have lied regardless.
Mind you, we have faux reality shows that a new generation lap up despite the into pointing out that most of the scenes are set up - and that doesn't seem to do any harm. Maybe he's more media savvy than we think*.
* No I don't think so either.
Maybe Jeremy will just confess and apologise. After all, there are trains that are crush loaded - but he, or his advisors, shouldn't have lied regardless.
Mind you, we have faux reality shows that a new generation lap up despite the into pointing out that most of the scenes are set up - and that doesn't seem to do any harm. Maybe he's more media savvy than we think*.
* No I don't think so either.
It's certainly not incontovertible fact, unless you think that reserved seats are fair game so long as nobody is sat in them.
Virgin also describe the larger version of that image- which shows a full coach F, and plenty of faces (including children) without any pixellation- as "high resolution"...
Plenty of spare seats here:
I've had a poke around and there are plenty of images of people where the face it is possible to zoom in very closely and the blurring is no different to what is displayed here. Plenty of newspapers (predominantly online) seem to use Google Street View and I note that the image in question here was not the one that headed up the Press Release (it is actually on a different tab on their website) and doesn't seem to be the one being used by the media.
I might be as well to be honest but again I'm not sure that their privacy has been breached. We still have no idea who they are and I'm far from convinced a train carriage is an area where there even is an expectation of privacy. But I won't disagree that it would be nice if their blurring was a bit more extensive.
If it's after departure, which that image is, then sure they are. You might still get asked to move (perhaps the person was running late and is making their way down the train) but if there is no one there then I don't see how they can be treated as anything other than fair game! Of course, and we can't know this, they may have been reserved later on of course so then it would be fair enough to leave them. But as, crehld pointed out, there were plenty of empty seats in other images...
So, Corbyn is caught lying, and the fault for that is Virgin's? It matters not one jot the politics of Virgin/Stagecoach's upper echelons. It matters not one jot your perceived attitude of Virgin/Stagecoach toward their customers.
A politician lying to make a political point is nothing new. Attempting to defend that lie by denigrating the evidence providers is, in my opinion, a worse act.
I received my nomination email today. Will this bare-faced lie impact on my choice for Labour Party leader? Possibly. This criticism of Jeremy Corbyn isn't coming from the Owen/PLP camp for once. Such criticism I've dismissed as rhetoric in the past.
I voted Corbyn last time round.
With incontrovertible evidence of one of the two candidates lying, maybe it's time I reassessed the merits of the other candidate.
RichmondCommu
Established Member
Well that's just pathetic from Jeremy Corbyn. Jeremy couldn't run a bath let alone run a political party. And this just goes to show that his campaign staff are equally useless for encouraging him to come up with such a stunt.
This is the point. There was nothing wrong with the point he wanted to make - train are overcrowded and we do need more capacity. But why lie to make a cheap political point about having to stand on crush loaded trains when you could have just joined a departure from Waterloo at around 1715 on a weekday to make the same point without having to devise an elaborate lie. Cases like this actually undermine the credibility of the argument Crobyn is actually trying to push, however valid that argument maybe. This story is no longer about the overcrowding of rail services and the need for investment and extra capacity, nor it is any longer about the need for public ownership. Now it is about how a senior politician, the leader of the opposition no less, has willfully lied and misled the public
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
I think both sides have been "selective" about what they have chosen to release to the public. Being charitable, one could argue Corbyn filmed where he did precisely to avoid doing what Virgin Trains East Coast did, i.e. drag innocent bystanders into a petty political argument.
My concern is that East Coast Main Line Limited clearly have no understanding of their obligations with regards to the use of CCTV images. I'd expect better from an organisation like that.
crehld, in that still I can count four empty seats (on the right) and, er, five people walking in front of Corbyn. Some of whom are carrying buffet car products, meaning the seemingly empty reserved seats further up the train may actually be occupied.
The stills prove as little as Corbyn's little vox pop did. But it does show Stagecoach to be the petty and pathetic organisation I've long said they are.
Corbyn is the person second from the front of the picture in Coach H.
GatwickDepress
Established Member
What about the people sitting on the floor though? Why didn't VTEC make it clear to them there were seats available? 
To be honest though, this won't change anyone's perception of Corbyn at this point. By now you know if you love him, hate him, or think he's a buffoon. A PR gaffe isn't going to change that.
To be honest though, this won't change anyone's perception of Corbyn at this point. By now you know if you love him, hate him, or think he's a buffoon. A PR gaffe isn't going to change that.
I count 7 free seats on the right. I can't tell on the left because the picture, contrary to popular opinion, is not of a high definition enough for me to make out. And Corbyn is the person in the centre of the carriage, with only one person in front, having already walked past empty seats.
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And you quote the Daily telegraph.....
So, after this we really see champagne socialists in their true colours now don`t we, as if it was ever in doubt. So JC made a booboo. maybe not very wise playing into the fascist right but was it worth the hatred directed at him. Champagne socialism at work yet again.
What obligations, or for that matter, laws, have East Coast Trains Ltd breached or broken with the press release? If you believe that ECML Ltd have no understanding of their obligations then it would help if you could enlighten us as to where they've gone wrong. If they have done wrong then it follows that anyone republishing the images (including on this forum) has presumably also breached/broken obligations/laws.
I'll help you out with a link to the Data Protection Act 1998:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/29/contents
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
What about the people sitting on the floor though? Why didn't VTEC make it clear to them there were seats available?
Indeed. But I'm sure all those eye-witnesses are liars too
It won't change people's opinions of Stagecoach and Virgin either. Souter has proved throughout his life, both personally and professionally, that he is a nasty piece of work. This just reinforces it.
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It's a grey area. But, as I showed, most of the faces were not blurred.
What isn't a grey area is that the press release was issued on virgintrains.co.uk, which is owned by Virgin Trains West Coast Limited. The data controller for the CCTV is East Coast Main Line Limited. I doubt the Information Commissioner will actually give a toss, but I can't help but wonder why one company has ended up publishing CCTV footage from another company, especially as their privacy policy doesn't allow them to transfer data to third parties for the reason of "making the Leader of the Opposition look like a tit" (or however you'd paraphrase that in legal speak".
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This proves nothing of the kind. Look up the definition of proof then come back here with evidence of Souter's involvement in this instance.
What you have written is opinion. You've not provided proof. Unlike Virgin/Stagecoach with their evidence that proves Corbyn was lying.
You are right though that it's unlikely to change people's opinions of Stagecoach and Virgin. I have no problem with either (wish I could say the same about FirstGroup) and my opinion of them remains unchanged. If anything it's gone up slightly after they've held a politician to account.
Oh and maybe you'd like to couch your comment about Brian Souter. Could be perceived as libellous.
As regards the picture in which a child can allegedly be recognised, does this really matter ?
The child is presumably decently clothed and under the care of a parent or guardian.
The child is in a place open to the public.
Anyone else in that part of the train could see or even photograph the child.
What harm has been done, or what harm is likely to the child as a result ?
And BTW, I don't much like either Mr Corbyn or virgin trains, but in this case I side with Virgin.
The child is presumably decently clothed and under the care of a parent or guardian.
The child is in a place open to the public.
Anyone else in that part of the train could see or even photograph the child.
What harm has been done, or what harm is likely to the child as a result ?
And BTW, I don't much like either Mr Corbyn or virgin trains, but in this case I side with Virgin.
DarloRich
Veteran Member
eh? What are you wittering on about. Corbyn, the great Mr Clean of politics, the great honest straight talker, the great red hope has been exposed as being economical with the truth. Just think about what this says about your hero. just think about how inept he and his campaign people have been shown to be.
So what do his £3 army do? They seek to attack and abuse any who dares voice a criticism of thier master. Your man messed up and has been caught out.
ExRes
Established Member
'champagne socialists', 'JC made a booboo', 'the fascist right', Champagne socialsim', I'd advise a lie down in a cool room before you burst something
Corbyn has lied to put a false story in the press and he got caught out,Branson and Souter aren't pretending to be worthy of being Prime Minister, Corbyn is and Corbyn is a liar
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Yes, it does.
East Coast Main Line Limited say they won't share data with third parties without your consent, except for a number of specified reasons.
They then share data with Virgin Trains West Coast, who then release it into the public domain.
I know this seems like I'm being pedantic, but I'm not. Neither Corbyn nor, crucially, the passengers on that train gave permission for their data to be released in this way.
And if East Coast Main Line Limited are prepared to ignore the law about this, what else are they prepared to ignore the law about?
The barrister Matthew Scott and the broadcaster Paul Lewis seem to be agreeing with me...
You're right here. This isn't a grey area.
The transfer of data between two companies in the same group or groups is allowed in order to pursue the legitimate interests of the company. Responding to criticism of the business they are is a legitimate interest. So the data in this instance can be legitimately shared.
It can then be legitimately published in a press release as, as far as I can tell, there is no risk of substantial harm or distress to those featured in the data. And there is also the public interest and journalism exemptions that allow the data in this instance to be published.
Anyone featured in the CCTV images is of course free to pursue the companies who have released the data and request their removal from it. I doubt though they have any legal recourse to enforce such removal though.
WRT posts 167 and 169, I always understood that "not sharing data" meant not divulging private information such as banking or card details, physical or email address, medical data, phone number, and the like.
And not a photograph taken in a place open to the public.
And not a photograph taken in a place open to the public.
Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
Virgin Trains West Coast and East Coast Main Line Limited are not in the same group of companies and, besides which, the privacy policy of East Coast Main Line Ltd and Virgin Trains West Coast specifically explain where and when they will share information with third parties. The reputation of Virgin, Stagecoach, Virgin Trains West Coast or East Coast Main Line Limited are not listed as reasons.
The CCTV signs will also say why the images are being recorded, and "scoring cheap political points" (or however you wish to paraphrase it) will not be mentioned.
Corbyn is an idiot, I've said that all along, don't confuse me for a Corbynista. I'm deeply troubled that the two Virgin-branded companies will trample all over data protection rules and guidance to score a cheap point.
Harbornite
Established Member
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Tetchytyke
Veteran Member
No, I don't think so.
VTEC's CCTV is there for the purposes of safety and crime detection.
The ICO's guidance on CCTV usage is very interesting
https://ico.org.uk/media/for-organisations/documents/1542/cctv-code-of-practice.pdf
As I say, I doubt the ICO will give a toss, but I'm not comfortable with the way the two Virgin-branded companies have behaved in this.
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Johnuk123
Established Member
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So Jezza is also a liar as well as being an unelectable idiot.
This stunt will probably have improved his standing amongst his Momentum fans as in their eyes he's the second coming.
This stunt will probably have improved his standing amongst his Momentum fans as in their eyes he's the second coming.
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Their privacy policies are not a statement of law. I see no laws broken here. The companies share parent groups Virgin and Stagecoach.
If there'd been a disregard for Data Protection law I'd not be pulling you up for your stance. I'm glad Virgin/Stagecoach have scored this cheap point. If a politician is going to serve up such an easy ball to return...
I see no problem with Virgin providing evidence to protect its reputation, and can't see anything in a photo that reveals Jeremy Corbyn's personal (including sensitive) personal data.
If they proved he was on the train by showing his ticket booking, with part of his address or card, then that would be a different matter.
A photo showing he was on a specific train is fine IMO. It was hardly secret once Jeremy produced and released a video.
At the end of the day, if JC wants to make himself look rather silly by taking legal action then so be it. At least then it will be decided in court.
Fact is, it won't be taken to court and I am not sure how anyone not affected can be so up in arms about the problem.
If they proved he was on the train by showing his ticket booking, with part of his address or card, then that would be a different matter.
A photo showing he was on a specific train is fine IMO. It was hardly secret once Jeremy produced and released a video.
At the end of the day, if JC wants to make himself look rather silly by taking legal action then so be it. At least then it will be decided in court.
Fact is, it won't be taken to court and I am not sure how anyone not affected can be so up in arms about the problem.
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