Connection times between London terminals

[Dunderhead]

Hi there,

I've been on the BRTimes website and noted the page linked below which seems to suggest that, depending on the time of day, I only need to allow 23-28 minutes to travel between Waterloo and King's Cross when booking tickets for a journey that crosses London.

http://www.brtimes.com/#board?stn=WAT&show=info

Does this mean that, if I were to book (separately) advance tickets for two journeys, the first arriving into Waterloo at T+0 and the second leaving King's Cross at T+23, and then because of a tube delay (and I assume I would be expected to make the connection by tube and not by bus, as the fixed connection time states 'TUBE' specifically) I was not able to travel between the two terminals in only 23 minutes, I would be entitled to take the next available train to my destination from King's Cross? Or am I over-interpreting?

If this is the case, then what exactly would have to happen on the tube network in order to constitute a "delay"? I'm assuming that "there was overcrowding at the ticket gates which caused me to miss a couple of trains" wouldn't be good enough, but that the tube service status reporting "major delays" on one of the lines connecting the two terminals probably would be good enough? What about a minor delay to a single tube train that wasn't enough to alter the reported service status?

Enough rambling from me... I will be interested to hear the answer to this one.

 

[transmanche]

Does this mean that, if I were to book (separately) advance tickets for two journeys, the first arriving into Waterloo at T+0 and the second leaving King's Cross at T+23

I don't think that's what it means.

AFAIUI, the 23 mins is added to the minimum connection time of 15 mins which applies at Waterloo and (presumably) to the 15 min minimum connection time at King's Cross, which gives a total of T+53 minutes for your earliest valid connection.

If it worked the way you inferred, you'd only be allowed 1 min to make a connection at Waterloo East!

 

[telstarbox]

Yes - try a Stevenage to Woking journey for example.

 

[Dunderhead]

OK, well, that does sound more realistic (although it does fall into the "how is average Joe supposed to know that?" category) - I hadn't noticed that 1 minute figure for Waterloo East, lol!

Now, the reason I thought of this question in the first place is that today I've booked two pairs of advances through WAT and KGX, with the outward journey having 48 minutes between the arrival at WAT and the departure from KGX, and the return journey having 60 minutes between the arrival at KGX and the departure from WAT. Both journeys are offered to me (with significantly more expensive "through" advance fares, compared to the separate ones that I purchased) by the National Rail journey planner, but the first one is offered only if I tick the "allow less time to transfer through London" box (presumably because 48 < 53, but still greater than some other unknown threshold).

I am assuming (and hoping) that journeys presented to me with that box ticked are still just as valid in terms of "allowing enough time" than the ones that are presented without ticking the box. However, since I've split my advances either side of London, have I waived my entitlement to "connection protection" even if theoretically I have allowed enough time?

 

[SGB1953]

Hi there,

I've been on the BRTimes website and noted the page linked below which seems to suggest that, depending on the time of day, I only need to allow 23-28 minutes to travel between Waterloo and King's Cross when booking tickets for a journey that crosses London.

http://www.brtimes.com/#board?stn=WAT&show=info

Does this mean that, if I were to book (separately) advance tickets for two journeys, the first arriving into Waterloo at T+0 and the second leaving King's Cross at T+23, and then because of a tube delay (and I assume I would be expected to make the connection by tube and not by bus, as the fixed connection time states 'TUBE' specifically) I was not able to travel between the two terminals in only 23 minutes, I would be entitled to take the next available train to my destination from King's Cross? Or am I over-interpreting?

If this is the case, then what exactly would have to happen on the tube network in order to constitute a "delay"? I'm assuming that "there was overcrowding at the ticket gates which caused me to miss a couple of trains" wouldn't be good enough, but that the tube service status reporting "major delays" on one of the lines connecting the two terminals probably would be good enough? What about a minor delay to a single tube train that wasn't enough to alter the reported service status?

Enough rambling from me... I will be interested to hear the answer to this one.

Apologies for not being able to answer your question, but I think 23 minutes is way too short for Waterloo to King's Cross. I haven't done this connection, but I've done Euston to Charing Cross plenty of times. I normally allow 30 minutes, but would try 23 minutes if pressed. I think my fastest is 21 or 22.

Waterloo to Kings Cross is 3 stops and 1 change more. I'd suggest a minimum of 35 minutes, preferably 40.

 

[Dunderhead]

Yeah, I agree - I don't think I have ever made it between the platforms at WAT and the platforms at KGX in less than 40 minutes. That was one of the reasons why I wanted to check the meaning of the information on BRTimes.com.

 

[ainsworth74]

(although it does fall into the "how is average Joe supposed to know that?" category)

Well 'average Joe' won't be using BR Times and will be using a normal journey planner which will work out the appropriate minimum interchange for them.

 

[Hadders]

There used to be a table of times required to cross London in the GB Passenger Timetable but it isn't in the latest addition.

Depending on the OP's exact journey and the stopping pattern of the trains concerned it can be advantageous time wise to change at Finsbury Park/Vauxhall instead of Kings Cross/Waterloo. Sometimes journey planners will route you from Kings Cross to Victoria thence to Clapham Juction rather than Kings Cross to Waterloo.

 

[30907]

Well 'average Joe' won't be using BR Times and will be using a normal journey planner which will work out the appropriate minimum interchange for them.

Or s/he will read the detailed explanation given on BR times if you click on the (i).

 

[ainsworth74]

Or s/he will read the detailed explanation given on BR times if you click on the (i).

Still going with them using a journey planner. I would be stunned if an average passenger was aware of BR Times.

 

[greatkingrat]

Apologies for not being able to answer your question, but I think 23 minutes is way too short for Waterloo to King's Cross. I haven't done this connection, but I've done Euston to Charing Cross plenty of times. I normally allow 30 minutes, but would try 23 minutes if pressed. I think my fastest is 21 or 22.

Waterloo to Kings Cross is 3 stops and 1 change more. I'd suggest a minimum of 35 minutes, preferably 40.

That's why you have to add on the minimum connection time at each end. So essentially the system allows 15 minutes to get to the tube platforms at Waterloo, 23 minutes actually on the tube, then another 15 minutes to get from KX tube to the mainline platforms.

 

[Dunderhead]

Or s/he will read the detailed explanation given on BR times if you click on the (i).

I did do this, to be fair, but it was only after I read transmanche's post that I realised what it was actually saying, so maybe I'm just a bit slower on the uptake than the average Joe

There used to be a table of times required to cross London in the GB Passenger Timetable but it isn't in the latest addition.

Depending on the OP's exact journey and the stopping pattern of the trains concerned it can be advantageous time wise to change at Finsbury Park/Vauxhall instead of Kings Cross/Waterloo. Sometimes journey planners will route you from Kings Cross to Victoria thence to Clapham Juction rather than Kings Cross to Waterloo.

http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/servi...1116/1000/dep/251116/1900/dep?reducetransfers

At the link above my journeys are the 10:22-15:30 journey outwards (which only appears in this form with "allow less time to transfer through London" ticked), and the 19:11-00:15 journey returning.

As my tickets are all advances to/from Waterloo and King's Cross specifically, I don't think I would be allowed to board/alight at Clapham Junction/Finsbury Park as that would be a break of journey?

 

[Hadders]

Finsbury Park and Vauxhall isn't going to help you on a York to Bournemouth journey.

 

[adrock1976]

On a sideways note regarding minimum interchange times between London terminals, I can remember the Great Britain Passenger Railway Timetable book explicitly stating to allow 60 minutes to transfer on the Underground.

 

[Kite159]

With walking at a fast pace, favourable crowds & a favourable connection with the Bakerloo line, I can get from train to train between Kings Cross to Waterloo in around 20 minutes.

On an inbound journey towards Waterloo, if the train calls at Clapham Junction then changing at Clapham Junction to jump on the first available stopper to Vauxhall, can save some time, depends how long the service you were on has been timetabled to take between Clapham & Waterloo. But that depends how nippy you are on your feet

 

[Dunderhead]

On a sideways note regarding minimum interchange times between London terminals, I can remember the Great Britain Passenger Railway Timetable book explicitly stating to allow 60 minutes to transfer on the Underground.

That does seem like a reasonable requirement, but it seems that the NR journey planner is happy to offer me journeys with connection times that are below even the minimum that is derived from the formula that has been explained to me in this thread and on BRTimes, if I tick that one box. What I am hoping someone can clarify now is whether I've waived my right to "connection protection" either by ticking that box, or by going away and buying split tickets rather than the through tickets that the journey planner wanted me to buy.

These are the tickets I bought:
http://prnt.sc/chabe6
http://prnt.sc/chac3u

 

[Hadders]

That does seem like a reasonable requirement, but it seems that the NR journey planner is happy to offer me journeys with connection times that are below even the minimum that is derived from the formula that has been explained to me in this thread and on BRTimes, if I tick that one box. What I am hoping someone can clarify now is whether I've waived my right to "connection protection" either by ticking that box, or by going away and buying split tickets rather than the through tickets that the journey planner wanted me to buy.

These are the tickets I bought:
http://prnt.sc/chabe6
http://prnt.sc/chac3u

To be sure of being covered in the event of a delay I believe you need to allow the minimum connection time between London Terminals.

I don't agree with a blanket 60 minute requirement. Services to different lines vary. For example Victoria to Euston is far quicker than, say, Marylebone to Cannon Street.

 

[swt_passenger]

The NRTT used to include a matrix of times for journeys between London Terminals, I have a downloaded copy of the info somewhere, I'll try and find it later on this morning.

Attachment added 1040 13th, it was published in the NRTT "commercial information section" in Dec 2013.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

I don't agree with a blanket 60 minute requirement. Services to different lines vary. For example Victoria to Euston is far quicker than, say, Marylebone to Cannon Street.

Those with experience of commuting to and from Central London will know the optimal routes in and out of the London Terminals and for that matter the optimal routes on the Underground. Commuters don't take an hour to get from Marylebone/Paddington to the City. Timetable planning software assumes no local knowledge, but if you want protection for an Advance fare, you have to plausibly follow it.

 

[Hadders]

Those with experience of commuting to and from Central London will know the optimal routes in and out of the London Terminals and for that matter the optimal routes on the Underground. Commuters don't take an hour to get from Marylebone/Paddington to the City. Timetable planning software assumes no local knowledge, but if you want protection for an Advance fare, you have to plausibly follow it.

I agree with minimum connection times between London Terminals but these should vary depending on the Terminals involved. A blanket 60 minutes whatever the terminals involved would be wrong, in my opinion.

 

[transmanche]

I agree with minimum connection times between London Terminals but these should vary depending on the Terminals involved. A blanket 60 minutes whatever the terminals involved would be wrong, in my opinion.

As this thread shows, there is no 'blanket 60 minutes' and the minimum connection time does 'vary depending on the terminals involved'.