NRCoC replaced by NRCoT from 1/10/2016

[yorkie]

Yorkie won't like this one, as it legitimises "Southern only" and "not Gatwick Express" as routeings. This being the case, the advice to ignore those must no longer be followed as of the start date of these Conditions, or prosecution may result.

I don't think it does, but the wording is unacceptable.

 

[Richard_B]

b) Where you are specifically permitted to board a train service by an authorised
member of staff or notice of the Train Company whose service you intend to
board

I don't think this reads or is intended to read as the staff must be of the train company, merely that the staff must be authorised

 

[infobleep]

It also appears that TOCs can now ban or charge for dogs if they wish, using a similar wording.

Didn't see this before:



So no dogs in 1st on VTEC/VTWC at all

When at university there was a disability officer in a wheelchair who had an assistance dog. Now he was neither blind nor deaf as fat as I am aware but his dog clearly did something to help him as they had working dog notices on them.

Someone with more knowledge may be able to explain how a dog can help a non blind or deaf disabled person.

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[Bletchleyite]

I cannot see the government, or for that matter the courts, allowing combinations of tickets which are currently valid to suddenly become invalid on some arbitrary whim.

Why? The railway can set whatever T&C it likes, provided those T&C are not themselves specifically illegal (e.g. no refunds even if service is not provided). The only thing I'd say it would have difficulty doing is enforcing the new Conditions on tickets purchased before their publication.

I see no reason why it could not, if it wished, ban all splits except where the train stops. (I think it would have difficulty banning them entirely). What it seems to have done, at the expense of some edge cases, is specifically allowed them where you are buying a single/return specifically to enter or extend the validity of a season, Rover etc, which is quite a useful use-case overall, and is probably the only use-case where they could be seen as being really unreasonable if they didn't allow it because they'd be effectively requiring the passenger to pay twice.

 

[infobleep]

Condition 31.1 is interesting:



Good that you're now entitled to a refund if you can't get a seat in first class. "Cheapest valid standard class fare available on the service you used" is horribly vague though. A £10 AP standard class ticket may be the cheapest fare on the train. Assuming they basically mean the walk-up single fare, it also means that if you are on an AP 1st class ticket chances are it is cheaper than a standard class single, so no refund for you either.

May be if you put in a claim for a refund, you have to pay the different to the standard class walk on fare.

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[swt_passenger]

16.6 is a bad backward step though:

It is surely the same as now? You cannot break a cross London journey on LU according to the existing conditions, but LU allow you to get off between recognised transfer points without the right to continue:

A ticket which entitles you to travel on the London Underground and/or Docklands Light Railway does not entitle you to break and resume your journey at any of the stations on these networks unless it is a Season Ticket or a Travelcard.

Not being able to 'resume' is unnecessary if you cannot break in the first place.

 

[sheff1]

That is rather up to a Court. I have a feeling the railway will find that it in fact does.

I would rather it didn't. It would be very strange court case where a TOC was arguing that something formed part of the contract when the document issued on their behalf explicitly states that it does not !

 

[infobleep]

Zonal tickets were allowed in multiple provided they covered the entire journey being made, now they will have to overlap by at least one station.

How would this work with a London zone 1 to 3 travel card? Would one need a zone 3 to 6 travel card or does there just need to be one station in zones 3 and 4 that covers both, regardless of whether your on a line that, that station is on or not.

I may have misunderstood it.

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[Bletchleyite]

I would rather it didn't. It would be very strange court case where a TOC was arguing that something formed part of the contract when the document issued on their behalf explicitly states that it does not !

Most of the information panels offer a clarification in favour of the passenger; that is why I think a court would rule that they do.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

How would this work with a London zone 1 to 3 travel card? Would one need a zone 3 to 6 travel card or does there just need to be one station in zones 3 and 4 that covers both, regardless of whether your on a line that, that station is on or not.

I may have misunderstood it.

I'd say that, like BZ tickets, is a TfL matter, not a NRCoT one, and therefore logically does not change.

 

[sheff1]

Most of the information panels offer a clarification in favour of the passenger; that is why I think a court would rule that they do.

The specific panel I commented on removes something from the passenger. We shall see what happens if it goes to court.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Most of the information panels offer a clarification in favour of the passenger; that is why I think a court would rule that they do.

It's slightly more nuanced. The explanatory notes don't form part of the contract, but their existence makes it harder for someone to argue the intention or meaning of the contract is something different.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Which means you can never be given permission by a staff member of a different TOC. Which will be fun where a station is operated by one TOC but the service is run by another.

TBH I would like to see such permission, where not on a blanket basis, required to be given in writing, for which authorised staff could be issued with cards to write on. There have been too many issues with misinterpretation, particularly of non-authorised staff.

 

[infobleep]

• Condition 4.8 is slightly ominous - if a passengers damages the ticket by demagnitising the strip, they shouldn't be charged for a replacement.

If it's going to cost to get the ticket replaced because the strip has become dsmagnitised then I'd simply never get it changed until it was close to unreadable. There is no rule saying a demagnisied ticket must be replaced, even if gate line staff might prefer you to do so.

I use to travel through a ticket barrier that regularly damaged the magnetic strip on my ticket. Could I claim the cost of the replacements off them in future or sue them for damage to property in my possession?

I'm not saying I'd do that. Just hypothetically speaking.

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[Tetchytyke]

It is surely the same as now?

Almost, but crucially not. As you say, you were previously allowed to break your journey at an intermediate station, so long as you didn't attempt to resume it. Now you can't even leave at the intermediate station.

I suspect it is an attempt to "simplify" things, but it is a withdrawal of something you could currently do.

 

[infobleep]

Why? The railway can set whatever T&C it likes, provided those T&C are not themselves specifically illegal (e.g. no refunds even if service is not provided). The only thing I'd say it would have difficulty doing is enforcing the new Conditions on tickets purchased before their publication.

I see no reason why it could not, if it wished, ban all splits except where the train stops. (I think it would have difficulty banning them entirely). What it seems to have done, at the expense of some edge cases, is specifically allowed them where you are buying a single/return specifically to enter or extend the validity of a season, Rover etc, which is quite a useful use-case overall, and is probably the only use-case where they could be seen as being really unreasonable if they didn't allow it because they'd be effectively requiring the passenger to pay twice.

So if one has an existing season ticket, which rules apply after the 1st October?

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[Tetchytyke]

Condition 4.8 is slightly ominous - if a passengers damages the ticket by demagnitising the strip, they shouldn't be charged for a replacement.

The existing NRCoC says the same thing at condition 23, there isn't a change.

 

[yorkie]

So if one has an existing season ticket, which rules apply after the 1st October?

The most generous of the conditions is that which applies.

 

[LexyBoy]

If it's going to cost to get the ticket replaced because the strip has become dsmagnitised then I'd simply never get it changed until it was close to unreadable. There is no rule saying a demagnisied ticket must be replaced, even if gate line staff might prefer you to do so.

Season tickets are still replaced for free (Condition 37).

I'd consider "damaged" to mean damaged to the point that it would not be accepted (ripped, soaked, washed etc). Simply being demagnetised does not invalidate the ticket.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

[*]I'm not sure that use of words like "generally" and "normally" (Condition 16.4) are appropriate in a contractual document of this nature.

I agree! Especially as there's no hint as to how to determine when something "may not" be valid. Nowhere else does the restriction on BoJ on a circular route appear, so are we to suppose it's at the whim of the TOC?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....I'd say that, like BZ tickets, is a TfL matter, not a NRCoT one, and therefore logically does not change.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage currently apply for TfL Rail and LOROL, so why you might think it would be different for other National Rail services I have no idea.

Boundary zone tickets (as I've already mentioned) do not need to abide by Condition 19 (or 14 as it will be) because they are considered to be part of the Travelcard.

 

[CyrusWuff]

My reading of Condition 14 is that 14.1 combines the introduction from the current Condition 19 with 19(b) and 14.2 combines 19(a) and 19(c), but with an expanded list of tickets (pretty much any multi-journey ticket in combination with a normal ticket) you can use where the train doesn't need to stop.

So things like Euston to Manchester with a Zones 1-4 Travelcard Season and splits at Wolverton, Rugby, Rugeley Trent Valley and either Crewe or Stoke-on-Trent will still be possible; combining an 'out-boundary' to Zones 4-6 Travelcard and a Zones 1-3 Travelcard will still be possible; but you'll still need to get a train that stops at the station where you change from one ticket to the other if combining seasons.

Having said that, we haven't had a briefing on the changes, so my interpretation could be wrong!

 

[Bletchleyite]

So things like Euston to Manchester with a Zones 1-4 Travelcard Season and splits at Wolverton, Rugby, Rugeley Trent Valley and either Crewe or Stoke-on-Trent will still be possible

I disagree. It's clearly to me intended in the wording that there is only one other ticket, or at a push one either side of the season.

 

[LexyBoy]

My reading of Condition 14 is that 14.1 combines the introduction from the current Condition 19 with 19(b) and 14.2 combines 19(a) and 19(c), but with an expanded list of tickets (pretty much any multi-journey ticket in combination with a normal ticket) you can use where the train doesn't need to stop.

So things like Euston to Manchester with a Zones 1-4 Travelcard Season and splits at Wolverton, Rugby, Rugeley Trent Valley and either Crewe or Stoke-on-Trent will still be possible; combining an 'out-boundary' to Zones 4-6 Travelcard and a Zones 1-3 Travelcard will still be possible; but you'll still need to get a train that stops at the station where you change from one ticket to the other if combining seasons.

That's almost the opposite of my reading!

14.2 allows combination of two tickets only ("a Season Ticket... and another Ticket") for the train to not stop. Any other tickets would require the train to stop where they join as per 14.1.

14.2 requires that one of the tickets is a Season (etc) but places no restrictions on the other, so two Seasons would be OK on non-stop trains. Can't see GWR being too happy about that once all the Bristol commuters split at Didcot!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage currently apply for TfL Rail and LOROL, so why you might think it would be different for other National Rail services I have no idea.

I would expect the validity of TfL tickets to be uniform across modes, whether Tube or National Rail, and to be defined in the conditions of those tickets. So if you're allowed to combine a 1-3 and 4-6 Travelcard on a TfL service, you would also be allowed to do so on an NR service.

That does not prejudice any of the rest of the NRCoT.

 

[infobleep]

My reading of Condition 14 is that 14.1 combines the introduction from the current Condition 19 with 19(b) and 14.2 combines 19(a) and 19(c), but with an expanded list of tickets (pretty much any multi-journey ticket in combination with a normal ticket) you can use where the train doesn't need to stop.

So things like Euston to Manchester with a Zones 1-4 Travelcard Season and splits at Wolverton, Rugby, Rugeley Trent Valley and either Crewe or Stoke-on-Trent will still be possible; combining an 'out-boundary' to Zones 4-6 Travelcard and a Zones 1-3 Travelcard will still be possible; but you'll still need to get a train that stops at the station where you change from one ticket to the other if combining seasons.

Having said that, we haven't had a briefing on the changes, so my interpretation could be wrong!

Can't you already combine session tickets where it passes through a station where the train stops?

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[hairyhandedfool]

....So things like Euston to Manchester with a Zones 1-4 Travelcard Season and splits at Wolverton, Rugby, Rugeley Trent Valley and either Crewe or Stoke-on-Trent will still be possible; combining an 'out-boundary' to Zones 4-6 Travelcard and a Zones 1-3 Travelcard will still be possible; but you'll still need to get a train that stops at the station where you change from one ticket to the other if combining seasons....

Under the current conditions, a 1-3 Season Travelcard and a Rugby to zones 4-6 Travelcard could be used in combination under 19a (both Zonal Tickets), but under the new NRCoT, as there is no 'border station' between zones 3 and 4, the combination would not be valid because there is no common station and another ticket would be needed to 'bridge the gap'. This would be different to a Luton to 4-6 Travelcard combined with a 1-3 Travelcard as Hendon is in zone 3 and zone 4.

To make life even more interesting a Bedford to Elstree & Borehamwood season ticket and a zone 1-6 Travelcard season ticket will now be valid on EMT services into London.

....Having said that, we haven't had a briefing on the changes, so my interpretation could be wrong!

I've seen a briefing from ATOC, but it says there is very little difference. The following quote might also help answer another query.....

If a ticket was purchased before the new Conditions take effect, which set apply?

There is very little change between the two Conditions but in such circumstances the customer
should be given the benefit of the new Conditions where any travel takes place on or after 1
st
October, regardless of when the ticket was bought.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Can't you already combine session tickets where it passes through a station where the train stops?

No, very explicitly not. Only a season ticket and not-a-season-ticket. The intention is to allow occasional extension of season tickets for genuine reasons, not to facilitate splits. As an example, someone might hold a Bletchley-Euston season ticket and wish to extend it to MKC on odd occasions so as to be able to use a non-stop service to get there (though VT staff are known for not understanding this and refusing it).

 

[hairyhandedfool]

I would expect the validity of TfL tickets to be uniform across modes, whether Tube or National Rail, and to be defined in the conditions of those tickets. So if you're allowed to combine a 1-3 and 4-6 Travelcard on a TfL service, you would also be allowed to do so on an NR service.

That does not prejudice any of the rest of the NRCoT.

You would expect wrong.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You would expect wrong.

Can you give an example of another case, not related to these changes, where the validity of a Travelcard, or a combination of Travelcards (not involving any non-TfL tickets), is different on National Rail services from London Underground services?

If you are simply "proving by assertion" your interpretation of these new Conditions, I would suggest such a question would need to be addressed to ATOC, unless by "TOC employee" in your profile you mean "ATOC employee", or in absence of such an interpretation a Court in the event of a prosecution being brought.

 

[yorksrob]

It certainly seems good news that PTE products are no longer excluded from the season tickets which can be combined without stopping. This has been a bugbear of mine for some time.

 

[embers25]

That's almost the opposite of my reading!

14.2 allows combination of two tickets only ("a Season Ticket... and another Ticket") for the train to not stop. Any other tickets would require the train to stop where they join as per 14.1.

14.2 requires that one of the tickets is a Season (etc) but places no restrictions on the other, so two Seasons would be OK on non-stop trains. Can't see GWR being too happy about that once all the Bristol commuters split at Didcot!

Also Bedwyn just grew in usefulness!