Creation of class 230 DEMUs from ex-LU D78s by Vivarail

[Bletchleyite]

I still don't see where Vivarail are going to be able to shift these trains in reasonable numbers to make the project viable, now that the doors been closed at both Northern and Anglia and even a reasonable number of units are now going to be freed up over the next few years.

Any one they sell/lease is money. They will need to recoup spending somehow.

 

[47802]

Any one they sell/lease is money. They will need to recoup spending somehow.

That maybe so but for this project to be really successful I imagine they need to shift most of them and I don't see that happening.

 

[Clip]

I still don't see where Vivarail are going to be able to shift these trains in reasonable numbers to make the project viable, now that the doors been closed at both Northern and Anglia and even a reasonable number of units are now going to be freed up over the next few years

For instance if EMT can get hold of all the spare 156's and maybe some of the 170/185's etc are they really going to be interested in 230's

Theres pages and pages of where these vehicles could be used 2 TOCs does not kill a business.

 

[D365]

And there are cheaper ways of rescuing a failed train than building another one - such as an emergency coupler.

It was explained earlier in the discussion that 230001 will be carrying a coupler adaptor.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That maybe so but for this project to be really successful I imagine they need to shift most of them and I don't see that happening.

The vehicles they own were bought for near scrap-value, so any that go unused will be sold at a similar price, with allowances for fluctuations in scrap metal value. The only costs that can't be recouped easily are the fees for storage in the interim.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Any one they sell/lease is money. They will need to recoup spending somehow.

What was their original outlay when purchasing all the ex-LU units?

 

[47802]

The vehicles they own were bought for near scrap-value, so any that go unused will be sold at a similar price, with allowances for fluctuations in scrap metal value. The only costs that can't be recouped easily are the fees for storage in the interim.

I would imagine they have had fairly significant R&D and conversion/testing costs for the prototype though.

 

[route:oxford]

I suspect little progress has been made in modifying engines optimised for road use to rail use. The applications are fundamentally different, with completely separate use regimes.

The car I drive is petrol-electric.
The bus I take to work is diesel-electric.
The train I take is diesel-electric

Essentially they are all the same. A motor burns fuel, turns a generator which in powers the motors which powers the wheels.

The only major difference is that some have a regenerative battery storage system.

 

[Mordac]

The car I drive is petrol-electric.
The bus I take to work is diesel-electric.
The train I take is diesel-electric

Essentially they are all the same. A motor burns fuel, turns a generator which in powers the motors which powers the wheels.

The only major difference is that some have a regenerative battery storage system.

Surely most cars, other than hybrids, are petrol or diesel mechanic, not electric.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Surely most cars, other than hybrids, are petrol or diesel mechanic, not electric.

Most are, and most diesel trains, on local routes at least, do not have electric transmission either. In those applications, there will be a significant difference between the type of work the engine is required to do on the road and on the rails. However in the case of the 230s the engines are being used as generator sets so those differences won't be as pronounced.

 

[randyrippley]

The car I drive is petrol-electric.
The bus I take to work is diesel-electric.
The train I take is diesel-electric

Essentially they are all the same. A motor burns fuel, turns a generator which in powers the motors which powers the wheels.

The only major difference is that some have a regenerative battery storage system.

But there are differences in vibration, power cycling, heat loss which all require consideration. The load on a car or bus engine is variable, and rarely at full power. The load on a train engine basically is binary: full power, or off, with all the associated problems of thermal stress that brings. Converting a road engine to rail (or a marine engine to rail) is a heck of a task and most who've tried have failed dismally.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely most cars, other than hybrids, are petrol or diesel mechanic, not electric.

They are, but hybrids are becoming increasingly common and I would expect them to become the norm pretty soon.

 

[reddragon]

They are, but hybrids are becoming increasingly common and I would expect them to become the norm pretty soon.

http://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-ev-oil-crisis/

"With all good technologies, there comes a time when buying the alternative no longer makes sense. Think smartphones in the past decade, color TVs in the 1970s, or even gasoline cars in the early 20th century. Predicting the timing of these shifts is difficult, but when it happens, the whole world changes.

It’s looking like the 2020s will be the decade of the electric car."

According to Bloomberg, electric cars will pass 50% and hybrids will hit 90% in a few years.

Good bye Diesel / Petrol Mechanical!

 

[flappy8]

I suspect little progress has been made in modifying engines optimised for road use to rail use. The applications are fundamentally different, with completely separate use regimes.

What a load of rubbish. Its a generator.
Some manufacturers have engines on rail, road and water.

 

[kieron]

That maybe so but for this project to be really successful I imagine they need to shift most of them and I don't see that happening.

Why are you so worried about whether or not the project ends up being really successful? As I see it, the government's sudden change in attitude towards the Northern franchise is likely to sour investors' appetite for rail projects like this (i.e., ones where the government hasn't already given a commitment) for some time to come, whatever happens with Vivarail.

 

[47802]

Why are you so worried about whether or not the project ends up being really successful? As I see it, the government's sudden change in attitude towards the Northern franchise is likely to sour investors' appetite for rail projects like this (i.e., ones where the government hasn't already given a commitment) for some time to come, whatever happens with Vivarail.

I'm not particularly, its just strikes me as substandard solution like the Railbuses but we are not in the 80's, and we should now be looking for something better for the 21st century railway, which to be fair seems to happening on both Anglia and Northern, lets hope its the case with the remaining franchises that might use these trains to any significant degree

 

[southern442]

Why are you so worried about whether or not the project ends up being really successful? As I see it, the government's sudden change in attitude towards the Northern franchise is likely to sour investors' appetite for rail projects like this (i.e., ones where the government hasn't already given a commitment) for some time to come, whatever happens with Vivarail.

Vivarail should take advantage of the fact that Northern isn't the only TOC in the UK (unless DafT's PR is involved) and try and target other areas. South Wales as a stop-gap until electrification, Devon and Cornwall, and maybe even 153 replacement are all possible uses for these trains.

 

[edwin_m]

Are GWR still expected to be running a trial on one of the Devon/Cornwall branches?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Are GWR still expected to be running a trial on one of the Devon/Cornwall branches?

I believe that plan (for Gunnislake) was shelved some time ago- not sure exactly why.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's only one unit, so there can only be one trial to start with anyway.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

There's only one unit, so there can only be one trial to start with anyway.

.....and that one will be fully committed for a period of 12 months after it finally commences the start of the lease period.

Have Vivarail made any recent statements on the matter of a second three-car unit being constructed?

 

[route:oxford]

.....and that one will be fully committed for a period of 12 months after it finally commences the start of the lease period.

Have Vivarail made any recent statements on the matter of a second three-car unit being constructed?

Did you know you can find all their news & press releases on their website?

http://www.vivarail.co.uk/blog/

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Did you know you can find all their news & press releases on their website?

http://www.vivarail.co.uk/blog/

Thanks for the link. There does not seem any recent mention of anything but the single-car unit and the forthcoming trial and nothing about the production of any second unit for trials in other areas. This will not be a good thing, as it means that it will be then the end of 2017 / the start of 2018 before any other authority has the opportunity to carry out running tests in their area,

 

[jimm]

Thanks for the link. There does not seem any recent mention of anything but the single-car unit and the forthcoming trial and nothing about the production of any second unit for trials in other areas. This will not be a good thing, as it means that it will be then the end of 2017 / the start of 2018 before any other authority has the opportunity to carry out running tests in their area,

"This will not be a good thing" - I thought that was your view of the entire project, yet here you are now demanding that Vivarail should create another train.:roll::roll::roll:

 

[asylumxl]

I would be happy to see and use them on the Marston Vale line. Particularly if the service frequency can be improved.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I would be happy to see and use them on the Marston Vale line. Particularly if the service frequency can be improved.

I'd say a third (spare) unit on the same frequency would be the best thing to do rather than increasing to an odd frequency. (You would I guess need 4 for half hourly).

 

[D365]

I would be happy to see and use them on the Marston Vale line. Particularly if the service frequency can be improved.

Very good, especially with the delays that EWR is facing.

 

[Clip]

Thanks for the link. There does not seem any recent mention of anything but the single-car unit and the forthcoming trial and nothing about the production of any second unit for trials in other areas. This will not be a good thing, as it means that it will be then the end of 2017 / the start of 2018 before any other authority has the opportunity to carry out running tests in their area,

Im pretty sure that when or if they get around to building another unit then they will announce it and then we will know.

As I said earlier on it would be foolish now that that have one trial on the cards not to get another one built as soon as possible to give other potential customers the option to trial it on their lines once they have seen it in action rather than having to wait another 6 months for one to be built.

All depends how much more money the backers want to sink into it I guess.

 

[asylumxl]

I'd say a third (spare) unit on the same frequency would be the best thing to do rather than increasing to an odd frequency. (You would I guess need 4 for half hourly).

Personally, I'd be fine with the 150 or 153 being used as a spare and the 230 used one of the main units.

If the trial was successful, then perhaps another 230 could be converted and a half hourly service run.

Very good, especially with the delays that EWR is facing.

I would have thought the Marston Vale was the perfect place for these units. I wonder if the local authorities opposed such a trial in Beds/Bucks.

 

[kieron]

I'm not particularly, its just strikes me as substandard solution like the Railbuses but we are not in the 80's, and we should now be looking for something better for the 21st century railway

I can see two ways of looking at that. One is to say "we should use these trains because they're what's there". The other is to say "we should stick with the current trains because they're what's there". There is, as you say, a third option, but what do you do if the government chooses not to take it?

As for Vivarail, I don't think there's much point in trying to guess how successful they could be with this venture until the trains have run in public somewhere for a while.