Should OAPs and Disabled get free train travel?

[urbophile]

Concessionary travel for OAPs, whether it be bus, train, tokens or whatever else, should be means tested, in my opinion. As said above, some OAPs are very wealthy indeed, others live in near poverty. The same test should apply to winter fuel allowances and other additional benefits also. Quite frankly, there is no need or justification to ply people with freebies when they are well able to afford it themselves. Such handouts should be reserved only for the needy.

Pensioners in Merseyside (of which I am one) are fortunate to enjoy free off-peak rail travel. I don't see it as a 'handout' but as an incentive. Means testing is insulting and inefficient (and there has to be a cut-off point which is arbitrary and unfair); in practice wealthier seniors with access to cars self-select and rarely use their concessionary passes.

The more incentives that will get people out of polluting and congestion-causing cars and onto public transport the better. And anything that encourages older people to get out and about is beneficial not just to their own personal health but to the health of society.

The rail element of my travel pass is confined to Merseyside (plus the Merseyrail lines to Chester and Ormskirk). The bus element is of course for the whole of England (not Wales or Scotland), but only on local buses. If the free rail travel were offered on a national basis it might be difficult to ensure that it was confined to 'local' trains (however defined), so restricting rail travel to the holder's own area might be reasonable.

 

[Bevan Price]

I imagine that most of those who think bus passes should be means tested are all many years away from qualifying for concessionary passes. Pass holders mostly contribute to the cost of passes by paying council & other taxes.

If any of you have children, pensioners might ask why they have to contribute to taxes so that your children can have free school education, for example.

One advantage of concessionary passes is that they might encourage older people not to use their cars if their health / eyesight starts to deteriorate.

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Although it will never happen, I sometimes think that all rail travel should be "free at the time of travel", with all travel paid for through mational taxation. No tickets, no ticket gates, no compensation payments, no shunting money between different parts of the railway industry, no revenue collection people (of various quality), no accountants, etc. - and a massive reduction in train operating costs.

 

[D1009]

I believe in Hungary free public transport is available to all EU citizens over the age of 65. Unfortunately we're leaving the EU.

 

[JimmyR]

It would be too expensive to run, the concessionary bus pass scheme is already rather expensive to run. The councils get charged an "average" fare every time the bus pass is used.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've travelled across Europe as a senior in the past 5 years, and concession schemes vary widely.
Many countries have the same sort of system we do, with a (paid) annual railcard giving a significant discount on fares.

For seniors (like me):
2nd class travel is free in Hungary and Slovakia (you have to pay the excess for 1st class and other services).
Belgium offers off-peak returns for €6 between any two stations.
Spain's railcard (Tarjeta Dorada) is only €6 for discounts up to 40% - very good value.
France is a jumble with a national railcard and some local on-demand TER deals.
Norway, Finland and Portugal have 50% off all tickets without needing a railcard.
Italy and Poland are places where the railcard is surprisingly expensive and only gives small discounts.
But places like Germany, Switzerland and the Netherlands only seem to have concessions on season tickets, and are very much aimed at residents with local eligibility documents and payment systems.

Some of these concessions apply to EU citizens only (something else we'll lose on Brexit).
Starting ages vary (some start at 60, others at 70). Discounts are on ordinary fares and don't usually apply to the equivalent of Advances.
Disabled schemes are usually very similar, but without the age qualification.

No doubt all this is a mix of commercial policy (like it is here), and government regulation/funding.
Our commercial railcard scheme seems as good as any.

 

[Starmill]

Personally I think it's insane that in some regions, over 60s enjoy free rail travel in the evening peak, while everyone else has to pay the new, higher Anytime fare because off-peak tickets are not valid. If a new surcharge applies to most people to travel in the evening peak, why doesn't it apply to over 60s? The appropriate concession would be 50% off the normal fare. That or get rid of the evening peak entirely, after all it has had little or no success at moderating loadings and that isn't what it was intended to do.

 

[najaB]

It is not only harsh but very offensive.

You may find it offensive, and no personal offence is intended, but it is factual. To get OAP status, all you have to do is stay alive long enough.

 

[Trog]

Concessionary travel for OAPs, whether it be bus, train, tokens or whatever else, should be means tested, in my opinion. As said above, some OAPs are very wealthy indeed, others live in near poverty. The same test should apply to winter fuel allowances and other additional benefits also. Quite frankly, there is no need or justification to ply people with freebies when they are well able to afford it themselves. Such handouts should be reserved only for the needy.

Means testing benefits is fine provided that the cost of providing the service to the deserving and doing the testing and its administration does not cost more than just giving the benefit to all who qualify under a blanket rule. I would think that the more expensive or long term the benefit the more likely it is that means testing would be worthwhile.

 

[Bookd]

As a London resident I benefit from the Freedom Pass, which I value and as it is paid for by London Councils I consider that I contribute through my council tax. I do think however that this should be treated as a taxable benefit, so that the poorest in society would still have it free whilst the richest would pay most of it back at their highest marginal rate.

 

[fowler9]

I did mention before means testing the elderly or disabled. It isn't actually something I agree with though. I am a socialist. I don't mind paying towards loads of things I seemingly don't use, schemes for the homeless, GP's, Hospitals, roads, ambulances, the police, the army. Stuff I don't directly use but which people I directly rely on need as well. I happily pay for free travel for the elderly and disabled because it could and maybe will be me one day. It takes a special kind of selfish not to see the impact absolutely everyone you interact with on a daily basis has on your life in a positive way.

 

[anthony263]

Absolutely not unless they live in area's where the train is the only public transport they have.

My parents are both disabled so I have nothing against them just I have seen the problems the free bus pass scheme has caused and which needs to be sorted out and while it might get more people onto the trains we will all end up paying for it and maybe putting up with more overcrowding.

They get discounted train tickets through railcards that should be more than enough

 

[camperdown9]

Difficult question.

I live in an area were over 70% of the population is over 65 years old. They all get free bus travel. However I get upset that it costs me most of a tenner for a return trip of five miles. It's actually cheaper for me to drive and pay to park.

I am all for encouraging people to use public transport but as someone under 65 due to the cost of the bus fare I actually being encouraged to drive!

There are not many buses in my area but if I get the 9:50am service I will have to stand and I seam to be the only one paying. I am by no means saying that I should be given a seat just because I am paying. All I am saying is that it feels very unfair. Maybe we need more busses. I feel sorry for people who have to use the bus to get to and from work.

If you say that OAP's pay for their free bus service via there council tax etc. Well I pay council tax, as well as income tax. I don't have children and most older people in my area are fairly wealthy.

Why not just charge everyone a very low fare at a level that makes it daft to do anything other than take the bus?


Alex

 

[JamesRowden]

I think that the bigger problem regarding people unable to drive at the moment is the lack of bus services (particularly in the evenings and on Sundays) rather than the fact that they need to pay for rail travel. A free pass is no use when there aren't any services, and taxis are very expensive for transporting a lone traveller. Providing better bus services would help those who choose not to drive as well as those who aren't allowed to drive for medical reasons.

 

[deltic]

I would prefer scrapping all free travel due to the problems and distortions it causes. Instead for local bus and train services I would have a notional charge say 20p for buses and 50p for trains for off -peak single journeys while maintaining the present railcard system for longer journeys. In London we have the ridiculous situation of highly paid professionals travelling to and from work free of charge just because they are over 60.

 

[AM9]

I agree with Fowler9. I don't want to live in a society where those who need support are left to suffer. As far as additional concessions for rail travel, there could be a value cap on the ITSO where some travel is free and then the passenger pays (with railcard discounts). 'Ordinary' OAPs don't travel that much, but when they do, helping them keep to public transport is a good policy.
Those self-serving people who want concessions removed should be careful of what they wish for. Do they really want slow and often dangerous drivers getting in the way of their oh so important lives?

 

[najaB]

I do think however that this should be treated as a taxable benefit, so that the poorest in society would still have it free whilst the richest would pay most of it back at their highest marginal rate.

That seems like a sensible option as it provides a basic (and effectively free) method of means testing.

Like fowler9 I believe that society should help those who need, but it frustrates me to see benefits money spent on those who definitely don't need it - e.g. universal winter fuel benefit being claimed by the well-heeled.

 

[thenorthern]

For local services in a built up area with a large network such as Manchester, West Midlands and Strathclyde I can see the point but for other services I think it would be a bit too much. For example would it be fair if someone was able to walk up to London Euston and get to Carlisle for free when everyone else would have to pay £114.

I do hold one of those cards and I think it would be useful if the local authority rules meant anyone holding a card issued anywhere was entitled to use it on all the things the local authority offered as quite often I come across people with a Freedom Pass not realizing they can't use it on the Manchester Metrolink but finding out they can use it on the Sheffield Supertram.

 

[coppercapped]

That seems like a sensible option as it provides a basic (and effectively free) method of means testing.

Like fowler9 I believe that society should help those who need, but it frustrates me to see benefits money spent on those who definitely don't need it - e.g. universal winter fuel benefit being claimed by the well-heeled.

Bollocks! One doesn't claim it - it is paid automatically and there is no method to return it.

I know - I am retired, I don't really need it, but I get it anyway.

Now take the chip off your shoulder...

 

[najaB]

Bollocks! One doesn't claim it - it is paid automatically and there is no method to return it.

You might not. But others do.

 

[coppercapped]

You might not. But others do.

Barrack room lawyer, huh?

1. Overview
You could get between £100 and £300 tax-free to help pay your heating bills if you were born on or before 5 May 1953. This is known as a ‘Winter Fuel Payment’.

Most payments are made automatically between November and December. You should get your money by Christmas.

You usually get a Winter Fuel Payment automatically if you get the State Pension or another social security benefit (not Housing Benefit, Council Tax Reduction, Child Benefit or Universal Credit).

If you qualify but don’t get paid automatically, you’ll need to make a claim.

My point stands. Most people - I would guess nearly 100% - over retiring age in the UK get a UK state pension. The number of people who don't get a state pension yet claim for the winter fuel allowance cannot be large. If you have any accurate figures it would be useful if you would publish them to know how many people are affected and the scale of the 'problem'.

 

[Llanigraham]

Concessionary travel for OAPs, whether it be bus, train, tokens or whatever else, should be means tested, in my opinion. As said above, some OAPs are very wealthy indeed, others live in near poverty. The same test should apply to winter fuel allowances and other additional benefits also. Quite frankly, there is no need or justification to ply people with freebies when they are well able to afford it themselves. Such handouts should be reserved only for the needy.

And has been proved in other fields, the "means testing" costs more then the savings, so a complete waste of time and money.

Next?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I am all for those who are disabled to a certain extent(wheelchair, blind, and other severe disability's) to get free travel and a carer to get around a 75% discount to let them get about the country as we do I think its the one thing the railway should do with those with other not so severe disabilitys having the same discount they have now.

Who is going to assess or define their disability?:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe in Hungary free public transport is available to all EU citizens over the age of 65. Unfortunately we're leaving the EU.

Pointless comment!

 

[Master29]

Giving all disabled people free travel is not need based at all as all disabled people aren't poverty stricken in fact a hell of a lot are very well off.
Disabled doesn't mean poor and it's patronising to suggest otherwise.

All disabled people aren`t poverty stricken?? Really..... Do you live in a bubble or something?... What a ridiculous generalisation, and where is your proof of this statement.

 

[Llanigraham]

And has been proved in other fields, the "means testing" costs more then the savings, so a complete waste of time and money.

Next?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Who is going to assess or define their disability?:roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Pointless comment!

Somehow the last comment by me here got linked to the wrong quote. Apologies, but for some reason I am not allowed to edit my posts!!

 

[northwichcat]

A lot of rural areas do not have a train service, as the trains were replaced by buses as part of the Beeching Axe.

And some places have trains but no buses.

I'm not in favour of unlimited free off-peak travel for pensioners on trains. However, as pensioners get free bus travel I think it would be fair to allow pensioners to travel for free to the nearest town with a bus service, if their village/town has no bus service on the day they are travelling. However, that would be complicated to implement. For instance, the pensioners who live in the village of Plumley, Cheshire would get free train travel to Knutsford Mon-Sat but as Knutsford has no Sunday buses the nearest town with Sunday buses is Northwich.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Concessionary travel for OAPs, whether it be bus, train, tokens or whatever else, should be means tested, in my opinion. As said above, some OAPs are very wealthy indeed, others live in near poverty. The same test should apply to winter fuel allowances and other additional benefits also. Quite frankly, there is no need or justification to ply people with freebies when they are well able to afford it themselves. Such handouts should be reserved only for the needy.

One problem with means testing is it usually refers to how much money you currently have in your bank. So two 60 year olds may have exactly the same level of savings and exactly the same salary but one goes on extravagant holidays and buys a nice new car, while the other doesn't have a car and goes to the Lake District for their holiday. Therefore, by the time they are pension age one has a lot more money than the other but that is due to lifestyle choice so why should the one who didn't save be rewarded with free public transport and the one who did be deprived of it?

 

[Gareth Marston]

From a Stations Agents point of view the loss of over 60 revenue would force us to close- depriving the rest of the community of the facility. I dare say many other Booking Offices would drop beneath a viable level too. No doubt an accelerated booking office closure programme would be attractive to some at RDG/DfT.

 

[AM9]

From a Stations Agents point of view the loss of over 60 revenue would force us to close- depriving the rest of the community of the facility. I dare say many other Booking Offices would drop beneath a viable level too. No doubt an accelerated booking office closure programme would be attractive to some at RDG/DfT.

Equally, there are many bus routes that are only viable because of the level of ENCTS travel they attract. Remove that and the route would be lost to all, - even those who can't or don't want to use a car that they might have access to.

 

[urbophile]

From a Stations Agents point of view the loss of over 60 revenue would force us to close- depriving the rest of the community of the facility. I dare say many other Booking Offices would drop beneath a viable level too. No doubt an accelerated booking office closure programme would be attractive to some at RDG/DfT.

Similarly, the off-peak train service might be less viable without the presence of concession-pass holders. Merseyrail for example maintains a 15-minute frequency throughout the day, and often the majority of passengers off-peak seem to be pass holders. Would there not be a danger of the frequency dropping (and hence the service in general be less used by paying passengers too)?

 

[northwichcat]

Equally, there are many bus routes that are only viable because of the level of ENCTS travel they attract. Remove that and the route would be lost to all, - even those who can't or don't want to use a car that they might have access to.

But would those routes be more or less viable if ENCTS didn't exist? It could be the operator would sell more tickets if there was no ENCTS even if overall passenger numbers drop.

 

[PeterC]

The councils get charged an "average" fare every time the bus pass is used.

Not round here, the council budgets a fixed amount which is then divvied up among the operators in proportion to usage.

 

[6Gman]

All disabled people aren`t poverty stricken?? Really..... Do you live in a bubble or something?... What a ridiculous generalisation, and where is your proof of this statement.

Perhaps he meant "not all disabled people are poverty stricken" ?

Which would be true.